Mongrel - who has it who doesn't ? Does it Matter?

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FitzroyBlueBagger

FitzroyBlueBagger
Sep 30, 2018
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My definition for these young players is they'll won't shirk the contest when it's their time to go, put their head over the ball, put their body on the line, go back with the flight of the ball, stand up for themselves and their teammates fly the flag, total gut running and tough to play against...
I can see it within most of the youngsters we've recruited coming through, some just standout more than others atm like Cripps SPS Kennedy Williamson DeKoning Marchbank Cuningham but others will start to show more once they feel more comfortable with experience and start to fill out, like Jack Weitering O'Brien Harry Fisher that are starting to show these signs, Walsh Dow Stocker Setterfield will definitely get there all showing good signs already. I'd love Charlie to step up to the plate as well i get the feeling he's got that take no s**t mongrel streak in him as well...
 
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Gethelred

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May 1, 2016
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An interesting read on this very subject.
 

JustaBattler

Everyone Looks Better In Blue
May 31, 2012
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An interesting read on this very subject.

Thanks for posting!

Totally agree that ruthlessness of intent (mongrel) IS factorX in any sport - especially players.
I think it is a long bow though to suggest a lack of it over generations as being some kind of cultural DNA (much as I enjoyed a Collingwood supporter thinking it and believing it about his own Club)....if that were true we would never have had such a shocking two decades judged by our own standards in the previous 130 years!

I've been a huge fan of Cotchin - for years, but especially since he let out his mongrel ( the way he took out Shiel was absolutely fantastic if you remember?) ..Martin/Riewoldt have it in spades as well..with Martin (ex fend off) - being one of the cleanest players in the game as well....
Gibbs was a total boss for us on ball when he let his out briefly and copped a couple of weeks suspension for his 'sling tackle'...I absolutely LOVED it.

TLDR: meh it is a fascinatng subject to me ...
 

DangerousD

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Aug 16, 2015
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Thanks for posting!

Totally agree that ruthlessness of intent (mongrel) IS factorX in any sport - especially players.
I think it is a long bow though to suggest a lack of it over generations as being some kind of cultural DNA (much as I enjoyed a Collingwood supporter thinking it and believing it about his own Club)....if that were true we would never have had such a shocking two decades judged by our own standards in the previous 130 years!

I've been a huge fan of Cotchin - for years, but especially since he let out his mongrel ( the way he took out Shiel was absolutely fantastic if you remember?) ..Martin/Riewoldt have it in spades as well..with Martin (ex fend off) - being one of the cleanest players in the game as well....
Gibbs was a total boss for us on ball when he let his out briefly and copped a couple of weeks suspension for his 'sling tackle'...I absolutely LOVED it.

TLDR: meh it is a fascinatng subject to me ...
Nice little read, that makes you wonder, how does a club like Hawthorn have the record it does compared to Collingwood? How have the Dogs in their history only ever made 3 grand finals, the Saints a few more, surely there are underlying factors here, albeit subconsciously.

Its really interesting the discussion had here regarding the possibility of Clarkson coaching us, with many using his core strengths as a reason to actually not hire him, the mentioned game against Hawthorn in the article is a interesting one and one we have criticised him here many times. A culture is made over many years and history will remember the grand final wins, not the coaches personality or history.

The same can be said for someone like Hodge, criticised as being a sniper and dirty and all that but he is a winner, who was huge in his teams 4 grand final victories. It seems when discussing players, coaches, game styles that we as supporters want a team of good blokes, a nice coach, attacking football, when maybe we need to be focusing more on just winning at all costs.

Sorry if i got off topic, but the mental aspect of players and teams and how it translates to success is mostly unknown.
 

JustaBattler

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May 31, 2012
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Nice little read, that makes you wonder, how does a club like Hawthorn have the record it does compared to Collingwood? How have the Dogs in their history only ever made 3 grand finals, the Saints a few more, surely there are underlying factors here, albeit subconsciously.

Its really interesting the discussion had here regarding the possibility of Clarkson coaching us, with many using his core strengths as a reason to actually not hire him, the mentioned game against Hawthorn in the article is a interesting one and one we have criticised him here many times. A culture is made over many years and history will remember the grand final wins, not the coaches personality or history.

The same can be said for someone like Hodge, criticised as being a sniper and dirty and all that but he is a winner, who was huge in his teams 4 grand final victories. It seems when discussing players, coaches, game styles that we as supporters want a team of good blokes, a nice coach, attacking football, when maybe we need to be focusing more on just winning at all costs.

Sorry if i got off topic, but the mental aspect of players and teams and how it translates to success is mostly unknown.
People make the mistake of thinking that a player either has mongrel or skill - neither is sufficient in itself, but in my experience at elite level contact sports- skill is the given amongst all players in a good team - mongrel is factor X.
 

BlueJet

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Aug 16, 2009
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Nice little read, that makes you wonder, how does a club like Hawthorn have the record it does compared to Collingwood? How have the Dogs in their history only ever made 3 grand finals, the Saints a few more, surely there are underlying factors here, albeit subconsciously.

Its really interesting the discussion had here regarding the possibility of Clarkson coaching us, with many using his core strengths as a reason to actually not hire him, the mentioned game against Hawthorn in the article is a interesting one and one we have criticised him here many times. A culture is made over many years and history will remember the grand final wins, not the coaches personality or history.

The same can be said for someone like Hodge, criticised as being a sniper and dirty and all that but he is a winner, who was huge in his teams 4 grand final victories. It seems when discussing players, coaches, game styles that we as supporters want a team of good blokes, a nice coach, attacking football, when maybe we need to be focusing more on just winning at all costs.

Sorry if i got off topic, but the mental aspect of players and teams and how it translates to success is mostly unknown.
Those potting Hodge as a sniper
1) don't understand the concept
&
2) were following a side that consistently found itself bullied by the Hawks etc who knew that our club was conditional & had a soft underbelly.

Simmo against the Lions - he copped a fair hit and could be excused given his age & standing within the game for calling it a day but effectively said, fu** it and battled on after 300+ games & in a praccy game no less.
Which is not to say that it's smart to risk further injury but it's a sign to many within the group that when you're able to give it a crack, you damn well better.
IMO a serious competitive streak is every bit as important as the ability to take a mark or hit a teammate on the chest, hopefully our group develops this or are replaced by players willing to.
 

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Wickzki

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Oct 1, 2010
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People make the mistake of thinking that a player either has mongrel or skill - neither is sufficient in itself, but in my experience at elite level contact sports- skill is the given amongst all players in a good team - mongrel is factor X.
Agree with this.

Magic Johnson had a good quote in one of his first books.

Every player who makes it to college was a superstar in high school.

Every player who makes it to the NBA was a superstar in college.

But those who become NBA superstars had something much more than talent.
 

Coops93

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McClure seems to think it matters, and thinks there's a distinct lack of it in our team right now.

It's not a new phenomena, either. I remember discussions way back when Malthouse took over that we're a team of nice guys. He himself openly discussed that it was something he noticed and was trying to work on.
 

Blue__Balls

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Aug 22, 2014
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McClure seems to think it matters, and thinks there's a distinct lack of it in our team right now.

It's not a new phenomena, either. I remember discussions way back when Malthouse took over that we're a team of nice guys. He himself openly discussed that it was something he noticed and was trying to work on.
Then he went and turfed Mitch Robinson to the curb...
 

Blueballs38

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Feb 27, 2015
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Our team is shocking for mongrel .... if they all played like Cotrell we would win the premiership. That kid is lightning in a bottle and more of what we need.

Unfortunately what seems to have infected the young guns coming through has been Murphy’s attitude the last few years. Just do enough to get picked week to week and pick up the pay cheque.

Too many of our players just look to be playing for a pay cheque and not for glory.

Mongrel equates to playing for glory and stuff the money.
 

FRUMPY

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Our team is shocking for mongrel .... if they all played like Cotrell we would win the premiership. That kid is lightning in a bottle and more of what we need
Its the good thing about blokes who dont necessarily have the best skills and havent always been the best player in any side they've been in. They know their difference is work ethic and toughness.
 

Blue__Balls

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Aug 22, 2014
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Our team is shocking for mongrel .... if they all played like Cotrell we would win the premiership. That kid is lightning in a bottle and more of what we need.

Unfortunately what seems to have infected the young guns coming through has been Murphy’s attitude the last few years. Just do enough to get picked week to week and pick up the pay cheque.

Too many of our players just look to be playing for a pay cheque and not for glory.

Mongrel equates to playing for glory and stuff the money.
Don't think it can be laid at the feet of Murphy at all.

The issue is one that has arisen from the manner in which we approached the rebuild. Bolton was all about "no ceiling" for the players, they came in with a clean slate and they'd be selected based on effort and performance, not draft position.

But the reality was that, because we culled the list so heavily, we did end up gifting a lot of games to a lot of kids. We accepted losses, and big ones, because there were "green shoots". It could have paid off, if we'd accelerated quickly, but we didn't. We stagnated, we treaded water, we kept waiting and waiting for the payoff. And in the meantime, we turned a bunch of quality young kids into players for whom winning wasn't a KPI, wasn't a goal, it was a nice bonus every now and then but if we didn't get it we weren't too worried.

So we need to make changes to our training methods, KPIs and selection processes that reward the guys for whom winning (everything - the ball, the contest, the game) is a non-negotiable, and develops/encourages it in those for whom it isn't. And anyone between here and the end of the season who can't find that inside themselves should be shown the door.
 

Coops93

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There's also mongrel when the game is hot. It's been said once or twice but when things are going our way a few guys look 10x better, when the heat comes on they completely melt.

I bet there's a couple who get chippy and pushy when we're up by 4 goals who go oddly quiet when we're down by 4 goals.

Casboult for example, the only time this year I've seen it was, I think, against the Suns where he came flying in all knees and elbows to a Sun going in for the ball. Loved it at the time, but do it when the heat is rising and not against the lowly suns.

McKay did it once vs Richmond when we were in the game, but has he ever done it when we need someone to show physical intent? Same thing, do it when we need someone to lift big guy and not when things are on our terms.
 

AndyLucimitis

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Reminds of the Open Mike interview with Joffa Cunningham from St. Kilda. A renowned hard-nut and enforcer for the Saints, he said he came very very close to signing with Carlton in 1985.

Ian Collins told him - "We want you on one wing, and David Rhys-Jones on the other wing".

Now that's mongrel !!
 

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