Most underachieving teams?

[Monco Matt]

Has to be Carltank. Achieved nothing outside of wooden spoons for 28 years with all the financial backing that BPB's have to offer. Takes real commitment to be this underachieving. It might actually be an achievement in itself to avoid achieving for so long which might make this point moot.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Has to be Carltank. Achieved nothing outside of wooden spoons for 28 years with all the financial backing that BPB's have to offer. Takes real commitment to be this underachieving. It might actually be an achievement in itself to avoid achieving for so long which might make this point moot.

That is not underachieving they were just genuinely awful. List is in far better shape now.

 

[Monco Matt]

That is not underachieving they were just genuinely awful. List is in far better shape now.

Very true, you speak the truth my friend. Except the last part, they will still find a way to underachieve.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Agree. The saints were primed to win in 2009 but blew it in the final quarter. Won their first 19 H&A games as well.

Essendon blew the best chance of a dynasty. How could that team only win one flag from 2 super dominant seasons (2nd half of 1999 and 2000) and pretty dominant 2021?

Saints blew it in the first half, should've been around 6 goals up.

 

[Daka]

Agree. The saints were primed to win in 2009 but blew it in the final quarter. Won their first 19 H&A games as well.

Essendon blew the best chance of a dynasty. How could that team only win one flag from 2 super dominant seasons (2nd half of 1999 and 2000) and pretty dominant 2021?

The Cats were a better team, had better players across the board & it showed in the end.
Bombers 1999-2001 probably the biggest wasted potential imo.

 

[Freomaniac]

Power 2001 - 2004. Everyone knows that can remember back then that team should of won two. Primus & Fracou went down & Stevens nick'd off & they still kicked ass. They were better than Brissy most the time, just not when it mattered.

Eagles 2005 - 2007 ...... Judd & Kerr were only 24 when s**t hit the fan, that team had so much scope for improvement.

I remember both sides well.

Port could of easily 3 peated in 2002-4.

Eagles... back to back grand finals in 2005-6. Could of made one in 2007 as well. Essendon made eagles finish 3rd in 2007.

Had Port won that 2007 QF vs Port, would of got 2 weeks off. Confident that they would of beaten North Melbourne in a prelim in 2007.

 

[Freomaniac]

We'd kill for 4 flags in 25 years now

I am a dockers fan. I would love 1 flag in 25 years. lol

 

[evolved2]

I am a dockers fan. I would love 1 flag in 25 years. lol

I'm desperate too. One flag every 25 years looks good to me.

 

[Freomaniac]

Majority of that list won a flag a few years later in dominating fashion. Weird nom but fair enough, we do expect a lot from the most successful club this century.

View attachment 1852915

Solid cats side in 2022.

Not personally knocking on the cats. But you know as well as I do the cats could of won another flag or 2 between 2012-21. Well... 2016, 2019 and 2020 specifically.

2016: lost to swans in the prelim final at the MCG. I was suprised with the 1st quarter. Swans led 7.2.44 to cats 0.5.5.

half time it was cats 2.8.20 to swans 11.3.69.

had it been cats 7.3.45 to swans 4.10.34, the cats and game would of been a totally different situation.

Swans won 15.7.97 to cats 8.12.60.

Had cats made the 2016 grand final, dead certain they would of beaten the dogs.

I brought up the 2019 season. Cats Narrowly lost that prelim to richmond. Cats were leading in half time. Had the cats made the grand final, they would of handed a similar beating to GWS in the 2019 grand final like the tigers did.

2020... yep that grand final. Cats were up by 15 points... 5.5.35 to tigers 3.2.20.

tigers kicked 4.2 to 0.3 to lead 7.4.46 to cats 6.8.44 at 3 quarter time.

tigers pulled away to win 12.9.81 to 7.8.50.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

I always felt that Saints side was very unbalanced - brilliant top-end talent but more than a few absolute plodders.

If you work on the theory that "Premierships are won by your bottom 6 and not your top 6", you can see why the Saints fell short.

The 2008-2010 iteration, sure. Their list was complete rubbish below about player 15.

2004-2007 batted much deeper though. That period was the actual waste for the Saints.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm desperate too. One flag every 25 years looks good to me.

You wont have any issues if Brad Scott coaches your mob to a flag with in 4 or 5 years?

 

[Yoda_]

The Cats were a better team, had better players across the board & it showed in the end.
Bombers 1999-2001 probably the biggest wasted potential imo.

Unpopular opinion but the Cats last decade has been morewasteful.

1 flag after making finals if not deep ruins for years would be my description of under performing.

Dogs are fast closing in on this territory too.

 

[King_Steele]

The 2008-2010 iteration, sure. Their list was complete rubbish below about player 15.

2004-2007 batted much deeper though. That period was the actual waste for the Saints.

Absolutely.

04-05 St Kilda was very fun to watch. In the end poor injury management Ball/Kosi/XClark/Maguire/Hamill etc cost us IMHO.

Grant Thomas wasn’t the best tactician either. More a man manager type which is quiet common these days.

Lyon was too stubborn in the 07-11 period IMO playing his favourites ie Eddy when you had the likes of Armitage/Steven who had more talent sitting there.

But yes our bottom 6 in 09/10 is laughable in hindsight. Our bottom 6 now is more rounded which is good.

 

[Prestigerrycomo]

Collingwood 1977 -1981

4 Grand Final losses in 5 years

Geelong 1989-1995

4 Grand Final losses in 7 seasons not much better

 

[King_Steele]

In my time watching footy:

St Kilda 04-10
Collingwood 11
Adelaide 05-06
WB 08-10
Geelong 08

 

[CasuallyDressed]

Melbourne 2022-23.

Their Fans say best list, reality says straight sets two years running.

 

[King_Steele]

Melbourne 2022-23.

Their Fans say best list, reality says straight sets two years running.

Need a decent tall forward IMO

McQualter should help with a different outlook - Goodwin does seem the stubborn type though

 

[emuboy]

Going back a long way, the South Melbourne team of the early-mid 1930s was a powerful team full of superstar players, capable of netting the Swans a hat-trick of premierships or 3 in 4 years yet ended up with only one flag to show for their efforts.

The way that the Swans demolished Richmond in the 1933 Grand Final would have sent shivers through the rest of the competition, but when these sides met again in the 1934 Grand Final with South Melbourne hot favorites, a listless Swans team was taken apart by the Tigers before adding some late goals to produce a scoreline that flattered South at the final siren.

South Melbourne then played Collingwood in successive Grand Finals in 1935 and 1936 and lost narrowly to the Magpies both times, but then fell away sharply late in the decade, to 9th in 1937, and to last in both 1938 and 1939.

 

[Freomaniac]

Absolutely.

04-05 St Kilda was very fun to watch. In the end poor injury management Ball/Kosi/XClark/Maguire/Hamill etc cost us IMHO.

Grant Thomas wasn’t the best tactician either. More a man manager type which is quiet common these days.

Lyon was too stubborn in the 07-11 period IMO playing his favourites ie Eddy when you had the likes of Armitage/Steven who had more talent sitting there.

But yes our bottom 6 in 09/10 is laughable in hindsight. Our bottom 6 now is more rounded which is good.

As A Long suffering dockers fan... I will always Savour that 2012-15 finals period under ross lyon.

Freo didnt win a flag. But 4 wins and 5 losses from 2012-15 was a solid effort. I will savoure every Final under ross lyon.

Actually it wasnt the lack of flags or prelims that hurt. Its the lack of sustained finals. From 1995-2023, dockers only made finals in 8 of those 29 seasons: 2003, 2006, 2010, 2012-15 and 2022. Only time the dockers had a sustained run of finals or made finals for 2 seasons in a row was , yep, 2012-5 under Ross Lyon.

If you are a Saints fan since the AFL era of 1990, 13 years of finals since 1990 isnt bad.... 1991-2, 1997-8, 2004-6, 2008-11, 2020 and 2023.

 

[emuboy]

As A Long suffering dockers fan... I will always Savour that 2012-15 finals period under ross lyon.

Freo didnt win a flag. But 4 wins and 5 losses from 2012-15 was a solid effort. I will savoure every Final under ross lyon.

Actually it wasnt the lack of flags or prelims that hurt. Its the lack of sustained finals. From 1995-2023, dockers only made finals in 8 of those 29 seasons: 2003, 2006, 2010, 2012-15 and 2022. Only time the dockers had a sustained run of finals or made finals for 2 seasons in a row was , yep, 2012-5 under Ross Lyon.

If you are a Saints fan since the AFL era of 1990, 13 years of finals since 1990 isnt bad.... 1991-2, 1997-8, 2004-6, 2008-11, 2020 and 2023.

Being a Saints fan prior to the 1960s would have been torture, although at least you knew at the start of each year you probably weren't going to be disappointed.

After making - and losing - the 1913 Grand Final against Fitzroy (interestingly the last time these teams not only would meet in a final, but the last time they would appear in the same finals series) the Saints would appear in just 3 finals series - 1918, 1929, and 1939 - until 1961. And between 1913 and 1965, the Saints would boast just one finals win, the 1939 First Semi Final by 5 goals over Richmond. The drought would not break until the 1965 second semi final.

Since the 1960s and early 1970s, the Saints have endured many dismal seasons at or near the bottom of the table. This is despite having good metropolitan and country zones (Ballarat) in the zoning era when the Saints were at their post WW2 worst from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s. Improvement by St Kilda from the 1990s onwards has always seen the side slip back very fast to languish at the bottom of the ladder sooner rather than later. For example, after finishing runners up and 1997 and then 2009 & 10, the Saints took just 3 and 4 years respectively to claim the 2000 and 2014 wooden spoons.

Throw in St Kilda's atrocious start to the VFL with the side completely uncompetitive in many seasons prior to 1912, and in many ways its remarkable that the Saints are still around today and playing in the AFL. It would be kind of like if Annandale - a defunct NSWRL club that played from 1910-1920 and was Rugby League's answer to the Saints - was still going in the NRL today despite such little success over so many years.

 

[The 747]

Unpopular opinion but the Cats last decade has been morewasteful.

1 flag after making finals if not deep ruins for years would be my description of under performing.

Dogs are fast closing in on this territory too.

Four flags in fifteen years. I get your point but we must have a pretty bloody great side if that is underachieving.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Four flags in fifteen years. I get your point but we must have a pretty bloody great side if that is underachieving.

1 in 4 teams who make the top 4 win a flag.

Cats top 4 finishing positions this century after the home and away seasons were:

4th 1st 1st 2nd 2nd 2nd 2nd 3rd 2nd 2nd 1st 4th 2nd 1st.

1st = 4 times
2nd = 7 times
3rd = 1 time
4th = 2 times

So let's just create a rough little system here and say 4 points for finishing first, 3 for second, 2 for 3rd and 1 for 4th.

Geelong top 4 home and away finishing positions 41 points. And you should win a flag on average every 10 points that you accumulate. Cats 4 flags therefore reflects only the tiniest(2.5%) underperformance of Premierships v top 4 home and away finishes. And that is if you assume all Premierships are won by top 4 teams. Of course 2 of the last 34 flags have been won by teams finishing outside the top 4. But Geelong have also had a few finals finishes where they were outside the top 4.

Overall though, you would say this century, Geelong has roughly won as many flags as their home and away finishing positions would indicate they should win. This ceases to be true if you extended back to say 1990, 1980 or 1970.

The remarkable thing for the Cats though is what happened in the 10 seasons between their 2011 and 2022 Premierships. They won 1 of 15 finals matches against teams who made it to Preliminary Final stage.

Overall from 2000 onwards, the Cats are 15 wins and 20 losses in finals against teams who at least made a Preliminary Final. No doubt if the club was better at winning finals they could have burgled an extra flag or two along the way.

 

[Freomaniac]

Being a Saints fan prior to the 1960s would have been torture, although at least you knew at the start of each year you probably weren't going to be disappointed.

After making - and losing - the 1913 Grand Final against Fitzroy (interestingly the last time these teams not only would meet in a final, but the last time they would appear in the same finals series) the Saints would appear in just 3 finals series - 1918, 1929, and 1939 - until 1961. And between 1913 and 1965, the Saints would boast just one finals win, the 1939 First Semi Final by 5 goals over Richmond. The drought would not break until the 1965 second semi final.

Since the 1960s and early 1970s, the Saints have endured many dismal seasons at or near the bottom of the table. This is despite having good metropolitan and country zones (Ballarat) in the zoning era when the Saints were at their post WW2 worst from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s. Improvement by St Kilda from the 1990s onwards has always seen the side slip back very fast to languish at the bottom of the ladder sooner rather than later. For example, after finishing runners up and 1997 and then 2009 & 10, the Saints took just 3 and 4 years respectively to claim the 2000 and 2014 wooden spoons.

Throw in St Kilda's atrocious start to the VFL with the side completely uncompetitive in many seasons prior to 1912, and in many ways its remarkable that the Saints are still around today and playing in the AFL. It would be kind of like if Annandale - a defunct NSWRL club that played from 1910-1920 and was Rugby League's answer to the Saints - was still going in the NRL today despite such little success over so many years.

Also the Hawthorn footy club didnt make finals from 1925-56.


Keep in mind from 1925-1971 it was only 4 finals spots in the 12 team comp. Top 5 didnt come in until 1972.


Had the top 5 finals system came in from 1930 onwards, hawks, dogs, North and other struggling sides that finished 5th would of got more finals.

 

[Fadge]

WB 08-10

How many flags would you have expected the Bulldogs to have won between 2008 and 2010?

They were unfortunate that their best list of the past 60 years coincided with a super era. It's not underachieving if you're 3rd or 4th in line for 3 consecutive seasons and don't win a flag, though transport that list to 2016 to 2021, and they would have one or two flags to their name.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

How many flags would you have expected the Bulldogs to have won between 2008 and 2010?

They were unfortunate that their best list of the past 60 years coincided with a super era. It's not underachieving if you're 3rd or 4th in line for 3 consecutive seasons and don't win a flag, though transport that list to 2016 to 2021, and they would have one or two flags to their name.

Under Fadge's trademark system of logic, known as Fagic....

2008-10 Bulldogs, whose

• highest calibre opponent they beat in a final - of 3 finals victories - was the towering Michel Voss coached 13w-1d-8l 107% 2009 Brisbane Lions
• best performance in a season over a whole season was their 16.5 wins from 25 matches at 114% in 2008
• never won a Preliminary Final in 3 attempts
• were not even close to being a match for 15w 122% Saints 2010 in finals, losing by 24 points

is a miles better team than 2016 Western Bulldogs, whose

• lowest calibre of 4 teams they beat in finals was 16w 6l 130% West Coast Eagles in Perth no less, by 47 points
• best performance over a whole season was 19w 7l from 26 matches at 118%
• never beaten in a final and beat teams whose records were 17-5 151%, 17-5 119%, 16-6 143%, 16-6 129%
• won a Preliminary and Grand Final at their only attempt

Yep folks, this is why we love fagic. It makes the impossible seem certain. Fagic says Bulldogs 2008-10 were bette than Bulldogs 2016 because of their opponents.