No Oppo Supporters Non Bulldog Footy Talk - Bulldogs only - Part 5

[Brass Dog]

I know it's a bit early for it. But if you want to be completely blitzed in 8 minutes take a shot of your favourite alcoholic beverage whenever 'Goody' falls back on "line of sight" as a way of diverting from the hard questions*.



*Remember kids. Like gambling, drink responsibly.

Unless you do both at the same time then your ****ed.

Poor Goody doesn’t have ‘any lines in sight’ after losing his dealer

 

[King Harold]

Once you get rid of the players on party drugs, cheaters, liars and sycophants who will be left?

I’m prepared to put my hand up , but would need to check if statins are on the banned list ?

 

[Fossie 32]

Does it need to be explained the difference between theft, fraud, murder, assault, etc etc and consuming/possessing an illicit substance?

In any case, if a murder is prevented by policing, that is a life saved. Crimes with victims deserve punishment/justice.
Wasting time busting old mate smoking a joint while doing nothing to hurt anyone, isn't helping society at all.

I agree for the vast majority it is a party/life style/personal choice "issue", rather than a medical issue which makes it even less noteworthy. Meanwhile, the most dangerous party drug of all is legal. Not saying you are, but drawing lines in the sand around the nonsensical legalities of substances is not something I can get around.

Want to rephrase the first sentence? That is kinda demeaning

 

[cherrypie]

Personally - Don't give two shits what a player does in the off season, go to Columbia and become Pablo for all I care.

During the season I want you to act 100% right, no booze, earn your pay, prep, recover, and play your best and represent the club in the best way you can. If Joe-Bob has to pass a drug test to earn minimum wage in some s**t-kicking job, these sports stars should be held to the same standard.

But off season? Go nuts. They are humans to and getting high is just apart of the human condition, has been for millions of years as much as some people like to deny it.

Agree. I don’t care if players are mucking around in December as long as they come back fit and ready for the season.

Unfortunately I have it on good authority that one of our players was in public off his head just a week before our game against Melbourne. That for me is an issue, and while there are many from all clubs that do use during the season, I’d expect far better from an athlete who supposedly is trying to get the best out of himself

 

[glenashley]

Key point for me is that they've engineered a system to bypass wada testing.

I'd be very curious to see what wada have to say about it. Currently they're going with 'no comment at this stage'.

 

[BEaston]

Unfortunately I have it on good authority that one of our players was in public off his head just a week before our game against Melbourne. That for me is an issue, and while there are many from all clubs that do use during the season, I’d expect far better from an athlete who supposedly is trying to get the best out of himself

I heard the same thing... I didn't put much stock in it. Wonder if it's the same player though... If so, it would lend some credence to what I heard.

Honestly I think it would be to folly to think our players are better/worse than any other club. It's rife within all society.

 

[BEaston]

Want to rephrase the first sentence? That is kinda demeaning

Sure. The point is it's apples and oranges, not sure on the relevance and a bit of a strawman really.

 

[Fossie 32]

Sure. The point is it's apples and oranges, not sure on the relevance and a bit of a strawman really.

Thanks for that. Good to keep the discussions in here respectful, makes it way more enjoyable.
To answer your previous post:
I see the point about drug taking being a 'victimless' crime.
However, your example of 'busting old mate smoking a joint while doing nothing to hurt anyone' being a waste of time
1 Is taking an example from the lower end of drug use whereas this discussion began because of what I assume is use of heavier duty drugs in the Dees team
2 What if it is not an 'old mate' but a younger person with a shorter period of drug use - maybe stopping at this point could avoid them getting into harder drugs
3 Pot is not an entirely harmless drug and again may lead to using more harmful drugs
4 Even if drugs do not harm the user, they can lead to various other crimes and harming other people
5 Although there is the difference between crimes with and without victims, to me the similarity is significant, i.e. both are illegal. I don't see a problem with 'drawing a line' at partaking in illegal activities. If you feel strongly that the laws are absurd, go ahead and campaign against them. But I can't buy into just breaking the law because it doesn't suit me.

 

[doggies ftw]

4 Even if drugs do not harm the user, they can lead to various other crimes and harming other people

In that case they’ll be punished then,

Drug taking in itself is a victimless crime (except for maybe family members but that’s not an AFL issue and same could be said for alcohol abuse or even smoking)

As we’ve seen in the AFL this isn’t really an issue because these guys have enough money to support their habits they’re not out committing petty crimes for a buck to feed their addiction, it’s just a non issue.

Let’s be honest the extent of AFL players drug use these days is 99% getting a bit loose on the weekend. No one would be keeping up with the performance required in the modern game with any really serious drug addictions to the point of committing crimes around it. They’d be found out pretty quickly these days and the club/afl would be forced to step in.

You’d be surprised at how many high performing people you know or wouldn’t expect are casual drug users. As far as I’m concerned if you’re meeting your responsibilities to the club in a performance way and aren’t hurting anybody do what you like - I don’t see why society should have any input in telling us what’s right and wrong in these situations.

 

[BEaston]

Thanks for that. Good to keep the discussions in here respectful, makes it way more enjoyable.
To answer your previous post:
I see the point about drug taking being a 'victimless' crime.
However, your example of 'busting old mate smoking a joint while doing nothing to hurt anyone' being a waste of time
1 Is taking an example from the lower end of drug use whereas this discussion began because of what I assume is use of heavier duty drugs in the Dees team
2 What if it is not an 'old mate' but a younger person with a shorter period of drug use - maybe stopping at this point could avoid them getting into harder drugs
3 Pot is not an entirely harmless drug and again may lead to using more harmful drugs
4 Even if drugs do not harm the user, they can lead to various other crimes and harming other people
5 Although there is the difference between crimes with and without victims, to me the similarity is significant, i.e. both are illegal. I don't see a problem with 'drawing a line' at partaking in illegal activities. If you feel strongly that the laws are absurd, go ahead and campaign against them. But I can't buy into just breaking the law because it doesn't suit me.

1. It applies to other drugs too. The vast majority cause no issues to anyone if they're smoking a joint or doing harder drugs like cocaine. The users that are harming themselves or others, are not helped by the current system. This is where it becomes a medical issue and access to support like proper counseling can address the underlying issues that lead to this (often mental health issues).
2. Current laws are not stopping anybody do anything. That person already has access to basically whatever they want and current laws are not stopping them.
3. I agree pot/drugs are not entirely harmless, I'm not saying they are 100% harmless. However of all drugs, alcohol has shown to cause the most harm to the user and others. It is legal which doesn't make any sense.
4. It becomes a very slippery legal slope if you start penalising things that "could" lead to other crimes.
5. But do your morals change when you're in a different country where laws are different? Aligning your morals to a specific country's laws (which also change over time) doesn't really hold up. The way we're heading with marijuana, it will soon be legalised, or at least decriminalised IMO. It is already extremely easy to get for medicinal and "medicinal" purposes. At that point in time does your view on it change? I wouldn't think so? So merely using the "it's illegal" argument doesn't really stand up to me.

Think if the all the hours spent on trying to stop people taking drugs had been spent in other areas like mental health counselling or policing of domestic violence, or white collar crime, or any number of other avenues? Or if the money spent had been not only saved, but turned into revenue via taxation (like alcohol), which could then be diverted into a stonger Medicare system, or invested into hospitals or schools? How about pay rises for the people that keep society going like nurses and teachers? How about addressing affordable housing to help with the every increasing number of people that need to live on the streets? I'd argue these changes would have significantly more impact in reducing drug use, and the harms that follow than what we do now.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

In that case they’ll be punished then,

Drug taking in itself is a victimless crime (except for maybe family members but that’s not an AFL issue and same could be said for alcohol abuse or even smoking)

As we’ve seen in the AFL this isn’t really an issue because these guys have enough money to support their habits they’re not out committing petty crimes for a buck to feed their addiction, it’s just a non issue.

Let’s be honest the extent of AFL players drug use these days is 99% getting a bit loose on the weekend. No one would be keeping up with the performance required in the modern game with any really serious drug addictions to the point of committing crimes around it. They’d be found out pretty quickly these days and the club/afl would be forced to step in.

You’d be surprised at how many high performing people you know or wouldn’t expect are casual drug users. As far as I’m concerned if you’re meeting your responsibilities to the club in a performance way and aren’t hurting anybody do what you like - I don’t see why society should have any input in telling us what’s right and wrong in these situations.

I think the issue stems from the fact that the AFL wants the illicit drugs policy to mean different things to different people at different times.

It's clear as day that it was introduced as a public relations move in the aftermath of the Angwin/Norman event and the Eagles drugs culture. But now the AFL is claiming its about managing player's health, addiction etc. and make the policy that strikes and this 'managed health' category or whatever it is that has 100 players being able to avoid strikes is all about player heath and privacy etc.

A few people have made the point (e.g. Landsberger on his Fox show yesterday) that if the AFL is making that argument, why have that policy at all? It certainly doesn't appear to be applied as commonly understood by the public (hence its use as a public relations tool). Just properly resource club doctors and inform players that if they do have such a health issue, they'll be treated in a high-quality manner by the club doctors. AFL and club staff should direct players to the club doctors as a manner without having to worry about a strikes policy or testing regime.

 

[BEaston]

I think the issue stems from the fact that the AFL wants the illicit drugs policy to mean different things to different people at different times.

It's clear as day that it was introduced as a public relations move in the aftermath of the Angwin/Norman event and the Eagles drugs culture. But now the AFL is claiming its about managing player's health, addiction etc. and make the policy that strikes and this 'managed health' category or whatever it is that has 100 players being able to avoid strikes is all about player heath and privacy etc.

A few people have made the point (e.g. Landsberger on his Fox show yesterday) that if the AFL is making that argument, why have that policy at all? It certainly doesn't appear to be applied as commonly understood by the public (hence its use as a public relations tool). Just properly resource club doctors and inform players that if they do have such a health issue, they'll be treated in a high-quality manner by the club doctors. AFL and club staff should direct players to the club doctors as a manner without having to worry about a strikes policy or testing regime.

They have it to placate general society.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

They have it to placate general society.

To be honest, if the Angwin/Norman situation happened again 20 years on, today, while the reaction would still be negative one would assume that the outrage would be nowhere near the levels it was in 2004. General society has changed, too.

 

[dogwatch]

The AFL is used to bullying everybody - from Federal and State Governments down - to get and do whatever they want. They are trying to stare this down by saying the "doctors are doing the right thing in the players' best interests" by doing secret tests and pulling players out of games if they have traces of drugs in their system. This is flawed logic on many counts. They are making themselves the moral arbiters on anything to do with drugs. Bugger what anybody else says.

Probably the only two organisations that the AFL can't bully are the AFLPA and WADA (and by implication ASADA and SIA to the extent that it relates to drug policy). The AFLPA and WADA will probably have conflicting agendas on this matter so the AFL has to navigate a difficult and fine line between the two. That's why it is condoning dodgy stuff in secret and is tying itself in verbal knots to explain its behaviour.

This will be fascinating to watch as it plays out. Popcorn time.

 

[Planet Dogs]

What the industry needs to understand: it operates under a social license.
It doesn't pay tax. It gets Billions of taxpayer dollars.
It relies on the fan's trust and admiration of the participants.

I love the Doggies (and always will). But I'm f*king over the ALF.

 

[Yesterday Dog]

But I'm f*king over the ALF.

 

[Leon]

Just curious who people tipped for Brisbane vs Pies?

I’m feeling crazy but I went with the Pies.

Although I do reserve the right to tell you all what a genius I am if they do win.

 

[WAbulldog]

Just curious who people tipped for Brisbane vs Pies?

I’m feeling crazy but I went with the Pies.

Although I do reserve the right to tell you all what a genius I am if they do win.

I’ve tipped Brisbane do to it being at the Gabba but wouldn’t shock me if Collingwood end up winning it.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Just curious who people tipped for Brisbane vs Pies?

I’m feeling crazy but I went with the Pies.

Although I do reserve the right to tell you all what a genius I am if they do win.

I’ve tipped Collingwood.

Brisbane going 0-3 is funnier imo especially with two losses up there.

 

[fargy]

How good are games like these?! At least one of these teams will be zero wins after four rounds…a draw would be even better as they’d both be zero wins.

 

[Testekill]

If you've never been to a game at the GABBA before, Lions are absolutely feral. Will boo everything that doesn't go their way

 

[Doggy]

If you've never been to a game at the GABBA before, Lions are absolutely feral. Will boo everything that doesn't go their way

Born and raised in Queensland, they're pretty awful. They'll drop off back to rugby soon enough

 

[Leon]

If you've never been to a game at the GABBA before, Lions are absolutely feral. Will boo everything that doesn't go their way

Only been to the GABBA once, but I know what you mean.

I was at our Elimination Final there in 2000 - Scott Wynd and Steve Kolynuik last game, if you recall.

Long time ago, but their fans were feral.

 

[X_box_X]

Donkley ******* stinks. He has gone backwards. Struggling to lay a tackle these days. Shoulders becoming weak.

 

[out of finals]

We could really use a bloke like Hill