Link please? Unless you provide evidence to what you just stated that is just your opinion. So until you actually provide some evidence you have no real point apart from your opinion.
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Oppo Camp Non Eagles Discussion Thread
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Link please? Unless you provide evidence to what you just stated that is just your opinion. So until you actually provide some evidence you have no real point apart from your opinion.
Only hope is that their aging players fade because they looked great against Port. Pav even kicked clutch goals, very un-Pav like.
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- #753
http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl...-thymosin-beta-4/story-fnp04d70-1227288292492
Read this in its entirety.
All the parties intended to acquire and supply TB4 but record keeping and dodgy characters conspired to result I the judges deciding that they couldn't be reasonably satisfied that TB4 was the substance used.
That's like ordering VB beer, all parties intending to order VB, all parties believing it was VB and all parties consuming it as if it was VB ... Then concluding that absent records or tests that it was VB we can't reasonably conclude that it wasn't something else.
Which is true. But a stupid standard to hold things to.
I mean I ordered and consumed some black label last night but is there categorical proof that's what I had?
Read this in its entirety.
All the parties intended to acquire and supply TB4 but record keeping and dodgy characters conspired to result I the judges deciding that they couldn't be reasonably satisfied that TB4 was the substance used.
That's like ordering VB beer, all parties intending to order VB, all parties believing it was VB and all parties consuming it as if it was VB ... Then concluding that absent records or tests that it was VB we can't reasonably conclude that it wasn't something else.
Which is true. But a stupid standard to hold things to.
I mean I ordered and consumed some black label last night but is there categorical proof that's what I had?
This proves my point if anything. "Tribunal wasn’t convinced that the substance in the first batch from China was TB4." How can you possible ban players on that evidence? Reading that article suggests that the club should have been punished more severely.
That's unusual example, because in that instance you know exactly what you've ingested. And if in the future someone took you into court and accused you of drinking black label and you denied it, and all the blood tests came back negative than no there isn't sufficient proof. That's how the legal system works here.
Again though that is far removed from the Essendon situation in which the players had no idea what they were taking, nor did the club (ridiculously shameful) so how can they be prosecuted based on the evidence?
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- #755
You really think that's how "the legal system works"? Really?
You think the burden of proof in this tribunal was a as high as the criminal system? (It wasn't).'
You can "convict" a player because once he deliberately wanders outside the drug rules he loses IMO the presumption of innocence. Or he should.
The only defence for the players who deliberately acted outside the AFL rules on injections is ignorance, stupidity or a deliberate attempt to ignore the system..
It wasn't ignorance because all players had been made aware of the rules; so it's stupidity or flagrant disregard. Ones not a defence and ones an aggravating factor.
So players acted outside the rules and injected a drug that the injectors intended to be TB4 and the players get a free pass.... Because the drug ordered, intended and presumed to be administered couldn't be proved to be the one ordered, intended and presumed to be administered...
So does this mean that a player shouldn't ingest anything, ever, without scientifically testing it and documenting it, just in case?
Or can we assume say that lettuce is lettuce?
Cheers, I guess we have to agree to disagree but you're a pleasant enough guy and on an internet forum to have a disagreement without name calling was very refreshing.
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- #758
In fairness I'm generally a prick.,
I find this topic interesting. I can feel significant empathy for the Essendon players because I know how clubs work but they are adults, in many cases on big dollars and they have to be better than just passively accepting that sort of program.
Plus, it seems completely wrong that they have suffered not a single game ban but others who've taken diuretics or pain killers have had the book thrown at them for arguably mere carelessness, as opposed to repeated stupidity/disregard for rules.
I think the middle ground of a suspension based on breaches of the AFL rules and gross stupidity would have sent a stronger message than what was done. Which resulted in comments like "we have been vindicated".
They've got off. But vindication is not what happened. And that perception needs somehow to be quashed IMO.
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That is exactly why the decision was so ridiculous! Charters ordered TB4, the Chinese supplier says they supplied TB4, yet we can't be sure it was TB4!?
The whole thing stinks.
In fairness I'm generally a prick.,
I find this topic interesting. I can feel significant empathy for the Essendon players because I know how clubs work but they are adults, in many cases on big dollars and they have to be better than just passively accepting that sort of program.
Plus, it seems completely wrong that they have suffered not a single game ban but others who've taken diuretics or pain killers have had the book thrown at them for arguably mere carelessness, as opposed to repeated stupidity/disregard for rules.
I think the middle ground of a suspension based on breaches of the AFL rules and gross stupidity would have sent a stronger message than what was done. Which resulted in comments like "we have been vindicated".
They've got off. But vindication is not what happened. And that perception needs somehow to be quashed IMO.
I do agree that it's unfair on players like Saad and Crowley etc. But I don't know, I mean the difference was that they took a substance outside the club that wasn't approved by the club. I think that is a different situation than being instructed within your workplace to follow a set of procedures. And whilst Bruce Reid wasn't happy with what was going on he wasn't disgruntled enough to advise the players to not follow the procedures laid out by the club nor come out and voice his concerns to the public whilst all of this was going on. I believe he failed his duty of care most, as his patients come before his job, so even if he got sacked for doing so his first priority is players welfare, as a doctor.
True but you can't really prosecute them not knowing if they have taken the substance in question. Also in fairness I mean, not to be racist, but to get exactly what you ordered from China is not exactly a sure thing.That is exactly why the decision was so ridiculous! Charters ordered TB4, the Chinese supplier says they supplied TB4, yet we can't be sure it was TB4!?
The whole thing stinks.
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- #762
According to Bruce Reid he shut the program down as soon as he became aware of it. ,(see earlier link).
Again, I understand what you are saying, but I think you are allowing a club code of obedience to one's masters to override the players recklessness.
I'd never allow my employers to do something like that to me. Period.
Because it falls the smell test AND it was outside the rules explained to me by the AFL.
The players have to be accountable for that aspect. To date they've got a free pass.
Dr Bruce Reid wrote to James Hird and then football manager Paul Hamilton in January 2012 expressing his concern over the supplements program.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-21/full-text-of-dr-bruce-reids-letter
This was in January, wasn't the suppliments program administered throughout the year? If so he didn't exactly shut it down? If this is accurate then you've got to question why he didn't provide this to the players?
You could be right but I don't think either of us will ever know. To me it seems like the players thought Bruce Reid was happy with the program to run so went along with it. Unfortunately no one has all the facts so that's why I'm happy with the result. Clearly the players had no idea Bruce Reid wasn't on board.
Unfortunately I am not sure how it will be.
Due to the length of time of the enquiry and tribunal report, the general public sentiment is to 'move on' and 'get over it'.
Even if ASADA appeal (and I think they should) it will be painted by Essendon and Essendon supporters as a vindictive attempt to ruin the reputation of their players who have already been found not guilty ect. ect.
kane249
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Was sledged by Hawks players during the game as he was seen drinking at a footy game on Good Friday, Cats team mates disappointed he would be out drinking a few days before a game
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-09/motlop-stood-down
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Out of contract end of year. We should be having a crack.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but asada have only been able to bring this case before the AFL tribunal . If they appeal they will go back to the afl tribunal where they can't subpoena non afl employed persons so nothing more could come of it without new evidence .
But I heard in the radio that WADA might appeal it as it above asada and take it to a non afl court where they can subpoena Dank , Robinson and the injecting clinic employees that gave the shots .
To put it simply...Innocent until proven guilty. At this point in time there is insufficient evidence to charge the players or the club for administering any illegal substances.
The club has already been charged for bringing the game into disrepute due to their lacklustre documentation and non-existent care for the welfare of the players. $2 million fine, banned from the 2013 finals, suspensions and fines to the coaching staff, sacking of staff and the loss of draft picks seems more than sufficient.
Until Dank or another party comes forward with evidence suggesting otherwise, I think this matter should be put to rest.
The 2 Collingwood players on the other hand...
The club has already been charged for bringing the game into disrepute due to their lacklustre documentation and non-existent care for the welfare of the players. $2 million fine, banned from the 2013 finals, suspensions and fines to the coaching staff, sacking of staff and the loss of draft picks seems more than sufficient.
Until Dank or another party comes forward with evidence suggesting otherwise, I think this matter should be put to rest.
The 2 Collingwood players on the other hand...
just seen it on the news.
R.I.P Richie
http://www.hawthornfc.com.au/news/2015-04-10/clash-guernsey-revealed
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