Autopsy Not enough legs - Pies go down to Tiges in last qtr

[Cousin of Daicos]

Clearly you didn't say be more cautious with Wells as you want the club to be less cautious. With his achilles injury they are taking a careful approach and building him via the VFL so they are not ready to declare him fit for the AFL. You are saying they should abandon that with Wells and should have played him this week despite the club feeling his achilles isnt ready for the AFL at the same time as saying they should have been more cautious with Reid.

I'm not understanding what you're arguing here.

I was clearly talking in the context of backing up from a 4 day break with Reid.

 

[jackcass]

I'm a bit both ways on this.

I think it was poor selection to name Blair and Mayne. Neither did anything in the VFL the week prior, so their selection wasn't based on form. I would've thought Fasolo would have been the better selection, or even Daicos who wasn't too bad in the VFL. Wills and Sier were also more demanding of their spot.

I think Buckley wanted to keep an identical structure to what has won us games so far. So Blair replaced Varcoe and Mayne Crocker. Playing Wills or Sier would have changed that structure. I think Fasolo would've fit in though.

Also, the first thing many of us said after the Essendon game was "Rest Reid". So I was surprised we didn't rest him. The fact he is now injured is a question that needs to be asked of the selection committee.

Perhaps the selection of Reid was forced because Darcy Moore wasn't ready. The only other option would have been McLarty really. Or we would have been forced to re-arrange totally and maybe played Mihocek and thrown Howe forward. Clearly we won't do that. And thank god because Howe was a rock.

The only other thing I can think of is that Reid probably should have been rested once the game was out of reach. But in fairness there was 6 minutes left and we were still a chance.

So there's a few layers to it. All we know is we lost, Mayne was poor and Reid is injured. Hopefully it isn't too serious. I can't wait to have both Reid and Moore available.

I think that's a bit of a misnomer. From reports on the VFL game day thread, both seemed to play restricted game time against the bombers which may well have skewed the performance aspect. Both were however good the preceding games. Does anyone have the actual game time %'s?

 

[TradeDraft]

So if it is a pcl for Aish.. what's that 8-12 weeks?

Depends how bad he did it

 

[TradeDraft]

Meh. Four day break and a reduced bench of course we ran out of gas. As I said earlier; when ANZAC Day falls on a Wednesday the AFL should bring the bye forward for Collingwood and Essendon and give them the following weekend off. The comp is too close these days to be giving our opposition that sort of advantage.

Agree with game on Tuesday or Wednesday Us and Bombers should get a Bye

 

[sideswipe]

Agree with game on Tuesday or Wednesday Us and Bombers should get a Bye

Nah. Then we would lose the benefit of a bye later in the year when players are in greater need of a break. The reason we ran out of legs yesterday was our injuries which reduced our bench.

 

[Vankri]

We battled hard for three quarters and our gameplan was holding up reasonably well but Richmond are simply better than us at that game. We set up OK defensively and put pressure on the ball carrier but we got less scoring opportunities from it than Richmond who are very good at doing the 'little things' that make a difference. If you think about it would be the equivalent of a team coming against the Pies in 2011 and trying to play the forward press - difficult to execute over four quarters.

In that context it would have been nice to take a different approach and try to actually slow the game down with precision kicks but we didn't have the players on the ground to do so (Wells, Elliott, Varcoe could have helped). We weren't as far off as the end result shows but conversely never really dominated play at any point. I think there are some positives to take but also plenty of learnings that I hope we take forward this season.

Some things we really could have done better at regardless of the opposition. When we get the hitout dominance we got yesterday we should be able to win the clearances and actually score from stoppages. We got very very little in the way of scoring opportunities from our clearances and let them (and Martin) dominate by roving our ruck work (in the end it was 43-26 in points scored from stoppages). We need to work on better communication between our ruck and our mids, and we are lacking a real clearance specialist as everyone ended up with so-so numbers there. Adams would actually have helped in this game more than most realise as a lot of the midfield battle was played on the ground ball and clearance game he's good at (we lost the 'hard ball get' battle 67-32).

I also think we did poorly with our forward leads this game. It was an improvement so far this season but we went back to bad habits where the linking of our midfield to forward lines was inexistent and the forward leads were off for most of the game. Even in the first half we were really overly reliant on Cox and it showed when he took a big step back in the second. We can blame it on personnel missing in Varcoe and on lack of quality of who we've brought in but it's also the poor performances of players like Thomas, Brown, Stephenson and De Goey who had been good so far in that role and let us down.

Treloar gets a second team best performance in a row, and it's probably the best I've seen him dispose of the ball since he came to us so that was most pleasing beyond his productive numbers.

Pendles and Phillips also played well in the midfield despite a few untidy disposals (from both!) and Scharenberg and Howe were really strong in defence and composed.

Our best duo this season in Grundy and Sidebottom were slightly off compared to the first five rounds so you'd hope they're back to their best against weaker opposition next week.

Despite all the talk Mayne and Blair actually did OK in their roles and with what I assume they were instructed to do, but I hope this was just a short term patch and we put the balance back towards a bit more offence in the next rounds. Appleby also held his own and whilst I have questions on whether he can positively contribute to ball movement you can see his defensive instincts are strong.

Most disappointing of the game was De Goey, he got given plenty of opportunity in the middle too but he didn't perform in either of his roles, he couldn't buy a clearance and wasn't getting to the right spots forward. He was chasing a lot so not sure if that was a role he was given or simply him being late to the play a lot. Hopefully he has a good week on the track and bounces back against much lower pressure next week.
Edit: and Reid, I haven't enjoyed his work in the past few weeks at all, but it's a moot point now that he's injured anyway.

 

[Kilmo]

Sure, but i don't think 1x sleep = 40+ points.

In the AFL you only need to be a few percent off your game for the opposition to start stacking on goals. Especially an opposition like Richmond.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

Our rucks seemed content just palming it down to their own feet where swarms of Richmond players were telegraphing it. This was particularly evident up forward where the Tigers scored way too many stoppage goals.

I think we need to do a lot of work before we played Richmond next time at ruck strategies and maximizing the dominance. When in our defence, perhaps Grundy needs to be punching it 10 metres down the line and trying to force a boundary throw in or something. Just work on gaining some metreage.

Surely when your side can basically guarantee ruck victory, that you can set structures to maximize this. The Tigers were just reading the ball off our rucks way too easily. So we need to come up with some new strategies.

Really good points, Surely clubs are doing a lot of prep knowing coming into the game they will have ruck dominance but it rarely translates to clearances.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Exactly. Selection was objectively terrible this week.

1) Reid, an injury prone player not being rested when Varcoe was for that exact reason. Reid is now injured.
2) Going in with Mayne and Blair. Two players who provide less than nothing every time they're given a chance.
3) Not playing any of Fasolo, Wells or Daicos. Players that have actual skill and class as well as genuine pace and X-factor (pace in the case of Wells and Daicos anyway)
4) as a follow up from 1 and 3, not going with a smaller forward line to worry their taller backline

I think tactically on the day we were fine and held up ok for 3 quarters. That was despite the selection blunders. So imagine the result if we hadn't made such obvious selection blunders.

It seemed as though you were holding off on any praise because you knew that there'd be a stuff up down the line. That's being subjective.
Praising a recent good job regardless of the past 6 years is being objective.
I wouldn't have accused you of flipping if you had praised Buckley for the 3 wins.

1) all depends on how the injury was sustained
2) Agreed.
3) Would like to know why Fasolo, Wells and Daicos weren't in the side before I make a decision. I'm off Fasolo, have been for a while but not averse to him playing if he develops consistency.
4) Smaller forward lines work when the taller defenders don't operate well at ground level and when playing teams whose defence and support isn't as well organised as Richmond's.

A bit hard to imagine a different result based on what we think are better selections. I don't share your faith in Fasolo. He may have the X factor but his type of X factor doesn't win us enough games.

 

[Somebody]

Not unhappy with today’s effort, but there are some things to think about.
Game plan and aggression fantastic.
Blair and Mayne totally ineffective unlike the kid Appleby who did a great job.
These two never to return, would have been far better off playing Daicos, Sier, Wills, they certainly wouldn’t have done any worse.
Moore will be able to do anything Reid did up forward or more.
Elliott and Adams also to return soon, which is great.

True that Moore is an upgrade on Reid forward, but that would have allowed Reid to go to CHB where he is elite, and we are lacking height in defense. I was worried when they picked Reid for this game after a 4 day break given his soft tissue history. Hopefully they never do that again, he'll probably be out for 6+ weeks.

 

[jjsmitty8]

Damn, just kind of skimmed through my recording of yesterday’s game. Only 20 points down with 5 minutes to go, if the game ended there I think it’d be widely considered a gallant loss (even though the consensus seems to be it already was), but unfortunately for us we conceded 4 goals in the last 5 minutes, and 2 came inside the last 60 seconds. Made it look a lot worse than it actually was.

 

[barrackers]

I agree, their supporters are shocking. I unfortunately sat next to a Richmond fool who wouldnt shutup the whole game. When we were matching them in the first 3 quarters, he was just on a biased commentary rant of how Collingwood need help to make finals, Eddie paid the umpires before the game so we could win, the AFL wants us in the finals, so they were rigging this game etc...So l asked him if he could pls shut the f*** up, he then reminded me about how we are a cellar dweller who cant make finals lol....I said to him this coming from a Richmond supporter, whose team couldnt make finals for over a decade, took over 30+ years to make another grand final and 37 yrs to win a flag. Also pointed out to him they were the most average list to win a flag, and that we had more upside in us from this game considering we had around 6 to 7 players that could come in and make a difference to this side. He still told me we were s***...lol. Those Tiger supporters are cocky tho, worst winners ever!

Were you sitting near me? I had to put up with a similar sook.

Funny how they were whinging about the umps and didn’t once say anything about playing at half pace yet after the match a large amount are now claiming to have only played a half. Given they clearly like a whinge obviously they didn’t feel they weren’t trying at the time.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Were you sitting near me? I had to put up with a similar sook.

Funny how they were whinging about the umps and didn’t once say anything about playing at half pace yet after the match a large amount are now claiming to have only played a half. Given they clearly like a whinge obviously they didn’t feel they weren’t trying at the time.

I was level 1 wing, southern stand....there were a few Richmond fools around me!

 

[TradeDraft]

Were you sitting near me? I had to put up with a similar sook.

Funny how they were whinging about the umps and didn’t once say anything about playing at half pace yet after the match a large amount are now claiming to have only played a half. Given they clearly like a whinge obviously they didn’t feel they weren’t trying at the time.

Tigers make me want to Stay Home instead of going to Game

 

[Anzacday]

Funny how they were whinging about the umps

Firstly, Pendles dropped the ball in the centre, (just before half time) and I can only think the umpire was blindsided.
When Maynard tackled Dusty and he dropped the ball, the Richmond bloke behind me, (in response to me yelling he dropped it!!) said "it slipped out of his hands"

 

[DaVe86]

I think that's a bit of a misnomer. From reports on the VFL game day thread, both seemed to play restricted game time against the bombers which may well have skewed the performance aspect. Both were however good the preceding games. Does anyone have the actual game time %'s?

I was standing at the interchange gates and didn't see Blair or Mayne on the bench more than other players. In fact, I reckon Sier and Wills spent more time on the bench.

 

[TW Sherrin]

True that Moore is an upgrade on Reid forward, but that would have allowed Reid to go to CHB where he is elite, and we are lacking height in defense. I was worried when they picked Reid for this game after a 4 day break given his soft tissue history. Hopefully they never do that again, he'll probably be out for 6+ weeks.

Reid cant play behind the footy anymore. he's too slow and falls over at every contest.

I'd argue he is borderline best 22 anywhere these days. doesn't get separation on the lead. struggles at ground level. falls over way too much. there's no fluidity to his game. its mark....kick and slows everyone down.

 

[DaVe86]

Exactly, it is layered and I think before using the retrospectoscope people should think of that. Rarely these decisions are black and white.

I would have liked to see maybe Fasolo and Sier rather than Mayne and Blair but I can see where the MC came from and their output was pretty similar to the two they replaced.

Agree that Reid was probably a calculated gamble but we also dont know what the data was like for his recovery etc so our estimations fall in the range of guessing. Against Richmond there would be reasons why you may be reluctant to throw McClarty or Mihocek in for debut especially with another debutant already playing

Overall the team played well for 3 Q's and the 1st half was great footy to watch. It will stand us in good stead for future games.

I'd love to chat to Buckley about his rationale behind Mayne and Blair.

As I said in my earlier post, I think they were the most like for like replacements for Crocker and Varcoe who wouldn't have been totally exposed by Richmond.

I can understand Buckley wanting to use an identical structure that has worked so far this season. And in many regards it worked again on the weekend because we were brilliant for 3 quarters and then ran out of legs.

However, it does again leave me with question marks about Buckley's ability to adapt with the circumstances and not be too rigid. But in fairness we probably don't have a lot at VFL level demanding game-time, and the rest of the players weren't ready yet due to injury. Fasolo is the one I just can't understand. Surely you can manipulate the forward line enough to get him in. He was our leading goal-kicked in 2016 and runner up in 2017 despite only playing half the allotted games in each season.

To the selection panels credit though, it was a great call on Appleby. He looked great, and for me holds his spot even if Langdon is available. I think he is a better man on man defender and has more speed. Langdon's trick is intercept marking, but Howe and Scharenberg are doing that.

 

[parvey]

Get over it, the additions of Blair and Mayne being pushed as a factor is just ridiculous.

Yeah, nah, they were pathetic and sure did contribute

 

[jackcass]

I was standing at the interchange gates and didn't see Blair or Mayne on the bench more than other players. In fact, I reckon Sier and Wills spent more time on the bench.

Happy to take your word for that.

 

[barrackers]

I was level 1 wing, southern stand....there were a few Richmond fools around me!

More evidence the bandwagoners are coming out of the woodwork, I was in the the top of the Ponsford.

Firstly, Pendles dropped the ball in the centre, (just before half time) and I can only think the umpire was blindsided.
When Maynard tackled Dusty and he dropped the ball, the Richmond bloke behind me, (in response to me yelling he dropped it!!) said "it slipped out of his hands"

Haha, that's brilliant.

 

[barrackers]

Tigers make me want to Stay Home instead of going to Game

Pity we didn't get another one of these moments, which I suspect with a longer break may well have eventuated.

 

[Somebody]

Should play previous game Friday night then play Thursday then the week following as per usual.

Then that anzac game should be part of the next round, and essendon and collilngwood play friday night games in the round before. so it would actually be a lot beter than what happened this year.

 

[jackcass]

Yeah, nah, they were pathetic and sure did contribute

Yeah.... Nah!

Petulant excuses. They played their role, Blair more so than Mayne. Just because they didn't deliver Dane Swan level performances doesn't alter that.

 

[Anzacday]

I'd love to chat to Buckley about his rationale behind Mayne and Blair.

I'd reckon it's a combination of at least two things with a view to the length of the season.
1/ Like for like
2/ Seasoned bodies.