Over 30's - Richmond Vs Geelong
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Groupie_
time to return the traditional Richmond yellow
croxton over 28s
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wegetpumped
Norm Smith Medallist
No his saying champions deserve to go out as, not as has-beens. We are finding out that some players in our window weren't as good as we thought the younger ones eg George, Macca as they were carried by our champions. You also stated how hard our gameplan is which wears out 25 year old let alone players in their 30s. We failed them by not adjusting the plan.
- Thread starter
- #31
My post is not really about Geelong being on top, but how have they been able to allow their elite players to have such long, incredibly consistent & healthy careers. Rarely in the past 2 decades can i recall their season being ruined by an injury. Hawkins is literally not human. That guy is 2 years older than Jack, and looks & plays several years his junior.
Our medical team has left a lot to be desired over the past few years. We all joke about the injuries, but it hasn;t just been that - our players have aged much quicker than Geelongs, but several other teams. Dayne Zorko is 34, Pendles 35. Dangerfield 33. Hawkins 35.
Saint Francis
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- #32
Our football was definitely more taxing than Geelong’s over the years as ours relied on constant high pressure ball movement with greater physical contact and contests.
This puts a lot of stress on all parts of the body especially having to stop , accelerate and constantly change directions. The Cats was more a marking and controlling possession game which is why they struggled to beat us in our peak years. The Stand rule and 6/6/6 rules assisted them even more, but teams become smarter and slightly counteracted these rules this year by moving players back faster into the areas. They’ve tried to up the anti this year to stop this happening by trying to play our style and they’ve copped serious injuries. They have a seemingly better and faster recovery time by observation, but that’s unproven as I haven’t looked at the data.
It’s terrible what these men will have to live with in pain for the rest of their lives bc of the multiple injuries they’ve suffered during their time.
A man that I was good friends played in a third tier league and for over 350games from 8-40yo had basically every bone broken in fingers multiple times , hand injuries, dislocated shoulders , head injuries, neck and spinal injuries, muscular pain,hamstrings, foot injuries, legs and his knees were a mess . This did not include internal head injuries or other internal injuries as nobody cared back then and they just kept fighting on. He died at 52 from a massive brain haemorrhage which was most likely caused by all his abuse on his body . He was always saying he was depressed and arthritis during Winter was so torturing for him and he’d often escape to QLD to reduce the pain.
I can’t imagine how much worsening it is for AFL footballers today with the high velocities they reach with greater impact forces. They are really underpaid for the suffering they commit for us fans. It saddens me to see guys like Graham, Grimes, Lambert Ashbury , Macca etc basically have careers ending earlier than expected or just go off the pace so rapidly.
I think the other problem is bc of the costs and result driven industry for stakeholders players are rushed back faster than expected and injuries are recurring more frequently. The concussion protocols are great, but I’ve noticed recently club doctors are seemingly going overboard as any small fall resulting with a bump to the head is taken seriously. They maybe right and if they are then football could end up being soccer with hands .
The pressure on doctors and sports and conditioning staff must be immense and reading the injury thread on here that gentleman Louie Meehan is basically treated with disrespect and bad malice. It’s possible he didn’t prepare the boys right at the beginning of the year, but I think that’s bollocks bc we all know our game plan was the major reason behind it. This has taken its toll on our team quicker. Yes young Gibcus and other youngsters have had long injuries, but this has happened throughout history. It’s called bad luck as some players at that age just don’t have the mature bodies to face the stresses and strains of the training as well as those impounded during games.
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This puts a lot of stress on all parts of the body especially having to stop , accelerate and constantly change directions. The Cats was more a marking and controlling possession game which is why they struggled to beat us in our peak years. The Stand rule and 6/6/6 rules assisted them even more, but teams become smarter and slightly counteracted these rules this year by moving players back faster into the areas. They’ve tried to up the anti this year to stop this happening by trying to play our style and they’ve copped serious injuries. They have a seemingly better and faster recovery time by observation, but that’s unproven as I haven’t looked at the data.
It’s terrible what these men will have to live with in pain for the rest of their lives bc of the multiple injuries they’ve suffered during their time.
A man that I was good friends played in a third tier league and for over 350games from 8-40yo had basically every bone broken in fingers multiple times , hand injuries, dislocated shoulders , head injuries, neck and spinal injuries, muscular pain,hamstrings, foot injuries, legs and his knees were a mess . This did not include internal head injuries or other internal injuries as nobody cared back then and they just kept fighting on. He died at 52 from a massive brain haemorrhage which was most likely caused by all his abuse on his body . He was always saying he was depressed and arthritis during Winter was so torturing for him and he’d often escape to QLD to reduce the pain.
I can’t imagine how much worsening it is for AFL footballers today with the high velocities they reach with greater impact forces. They are really underpaid for the suffering they commit for us fans. It saddens me to see guys like Graham, Grimes, Lambert Ashbury , Macca etc basically have careers ending earlier than expected or just go off the pace so rapidly.
I think the other problem is bc of the costs and result driven industry for stakeholders players are rushed back faster than expected and injuries are recurring more frequently. The concussion protocols are great, but I’ve noticed recently club doctors are seemingly going overboard as any small fall resulting with a bump to the head is taken seriously. They maybe right and if they are then football could end up being soccer with hands .
The pressure on doctors and sports and conditioning staff must be immense and reading the injury thread on here that gentleman Louie Meehan is basically treated with disrespect and bad malice. It’s possible he didn’t prepare the boys right at the beginning of the year, but I think that’s bollocks bc we all know our game plan was the major reason behind it. This has taken its toll on our team quicker. Yes young Gibcus and other youngsters have had long injuries, but this has happened throughout history. It’s called bad luck as some players at that age just don’t have the mature bodies to face the stresses and strains of the training as well as those impounded during games.
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Geelong is top of the AFLs cheat list, umpiring and rule changes are only there to give them advantage and keep their old players relevant.
Richmond is top of the AFLs s**t list, rules were implemented to stop us and umpiring just keeps getting more rigged against us.
That's the difference.
Richmond is top of the AFLs s**t list, rules were implemented to stop us and umpiring just keeps getting more rigged against us.
That's the difference.
Why not check your facts? Hawkins is all of 3 months older than Jack. He has played 1 game more than Jack despite playing in 16 extra finals, so Jack has in fact been more durable. They have had quite identical careers overall, but Jack has been more effective in finals. Hawkins has had the benefit of playing a third of his matches at Kardinia Park where his record is substantially better than al other venues combined, 3.36 goals + goal assists average KP v 2.96 average all other venues. Jack has not enjoyed this luxury, but interestingly, averages 2.86 goals + goal assists at the MCG v where Hawkins averages just 2.65 goals + goal assists there.
Since Richmond dropped out of the top 4 in the last 3 seasons, Jack has played 62 games for 156 goals + goal assists @ 2.52 per game, down on his overall career average, but Richmond have kicked roughly 781 goals in the games Jackthat period, while Jack has missed 3 games so he has scored or assisted 20% of Richmond's goals in that period, despite being the secondary target in most matches. In the same period with Geelong largely remaining within the top 4 Hawkins has played 69 games for 238 goals + goal assists. This represents 26% of the goals Geelong has scored in the matches Hawkins has played in that period. This is an average of 3.45 per game, well above Hawkins' career average. I don't think this would be a normal expectation for a player of that age. In Lance Franklin's equivalent 3 seasons, for example, 2019-20-21 he played just 28 games at a bit below his career average for goals + goal assists. Neither Franklin nor Hawkins has Tom Lynch displacing them as the primary target.
So the durability of Hawkins and Riewoldt has been similar, Jack missing only 2 extra matches in the last 3 seasons. And when you adjust for the relative strength of the teams, the fact Hawkins gets to fill his boots at Kardinia Park(94 goals + assists from 25 games in the last 3 seasons,) and Riewoldt being displaced as the key forward target by Lynch you have to wonder just exactly how much better Hawkins has been than Jack in reality.
Geelong changed and got better in this period. There are many factors in that. Taylor made rule changes by their own people, that they knew ahead of time would have been very beneficial. They had scope to recruit players and recruited good ball users who could deliver the ball very well to Hawkins, especially Cameron and Smith. Miers is another who has come on in that period. Richmond did not have reason to change after winning 3 flags, and had the rule changes working totally against their entrenched game plan. We did not have scope to recruit players until after 2022, and did not recruit particularly good ball users, given the priority was big bodied midfielders. You have to ask if you put Jack Riewoldt in front of that Geelong team over the last 3 years how much different would his output be compared to Hawkins?
There are so many differences between Richmond and Geelong in that period it is difficult to isolate the effect of our medical team the way you have sought to do. We have been marginal final 8 all of that time, so no luxury to rest players when it suits. No quirky home ground where we train and play that affords winning with less energy expended. And no taylor made rules. Imagine if the AFL asked Brendan Gale and Neil Balme and Damien Hardwick what rules they would like implemented after 2020. That is effectively the luxury Geelong was given.
Mate, their reward was the paycheck, the three Premiership medals and the accolades that come with them, nothing more.
They are not gods to be worshipped but footballers paid to represent their members on the football field.
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For all that they are footballers on our list. They should be selected if they are in the best 22, and retained on the list if they are better than the next available option. Unless the club wants to rebuild, then do what Hawthorn did with your Premiership stars - force them out the door. And 6 years later they are bottom 3.
Premiership players should have been traded, they are a sought after commodity....
McIntosh and Graham have ready replacements in the VFL and could have got players that fit our needs and current rules.
But 3 years later they no longer have any value and that's when you have to push them out the door with nothing in return.
They probably mainly have strong value when they are reigning Premiership players. That value was already diminished at the end of 2021. But you are not trading them out at the end of 2020 when you think there could be more flags to be won. Especially when rule changes hadn't even been notified to our club at trade time 2020 - whereas the Cats would have known exactly what was coming.
We clearly explored certain possibilities with Soldo and Graham and Ralphsmith after 2022, but obviously suitable deals couldn't be struck. I cannot see the sense in trading out players who are making you win flags whilst they are making you win flags.
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Pretty cool that we won 3 flags in that time, love these posts. We weren't in it for second best, we were in it to win.
It is very easy to forget, Geelong have the biggest advantage in the AFL, that is their Home Ground. No other club in Vic, SA, WA or QLD get the ability to train where they play. I think its the same for Sydney and GWS as well.
That is an advantage to start with, then the ground is 30m thinner then most other grounds in the AFL makes it a joke.
Cats were kissed on the D with their father son picks as well.
Lot's more goes into it, then just player management of 30+ year olds.
We won those premierships off incredible club management, recruiting and of course coaching. Every other team, except maybe Geelong would give up everything they have achieved in the last 20 years. But Geelong would 100% give up their last 10 years to get what we did, in a heart beat.
Collingwood are another example, poor bastards (suck it pies) have won 2 in 65 years.
It is very easy to forget, Geelong have the biggest advantage in the AFL, that is their Home Ground. No other club in Vic, SA, WA or QLD get the ability to train where they play. I think its the same for Sydney and GWS as well.
That is an advantage to start with, then the ground is 30m thinner then most other grounds in the AFL makes it a joke.
Cats were kissed on the D with their father son picks as well.
Lot's more goes into it, then just player management of 30+ year olds.
We won those premierships off incredible club management, recruiting and of course coaching. Every other team, except maybe Geelong would give up everything they have achieved in the last 20 years. But Geelong would 100% give up their last 10 years to get what we did, in a heart beat.
Collingwood are another example, poor bastards (suck it pies) have won 2 in 65 years.
Oh my, let's all have a big cry .... Life is not fair
A true dynasty Club would have pivoted and won at their game too.
Oh my, let's all have a big cry .... Life is not fair
A true dynasty Club would have pivoted and won at their game too.
Where are all thee true dynasty clubs?
True dat, not many, but Hawthorn has probably had one true dynasty over four coaches and 20 years.
If you say that it must be 4 or more premierships with less than five years gap between each premiership.
Hawthorn 2008 -2015, 4 premierships
Hawthorn 1971-1991, 8 premierships
Richmond 1967-1974, 4 premierships
Melbourne 1955-1964, 6 premierships
Collingwood 1927-1936, 6 premierships
If we won another premiership in the next two seasons then I would see us as a Dynasty club.
2019: 6-6-6 and Kick-in changes to stop our 7-man defence and turnover game. We won the flag.
Oh my, let's all have a big cry .... Life is not fair
A true dynasty Club would have pivoted and won at their game too.
2020: Shorter quarters, we were the fittest team in the comp so it allowed other teams such as retirement home geelong to keep with us. We won the flag.
2021: Stand rule, less interchange rotations. Club was #eco.
2022: Stand rule. Competitive in every game, played good footy in the last month, single digit losses cost us top 4. F***ed by ARC at the Gabba.
smasha
It's Time!
Only two clubs have won multiple flags in the talent diluted 18 team era. Hawks, and us. And both have won 3. Right now, we are the last club to achieve that. For all we know, no other team will ever do it. Richmond may have achieved a truly great thing. Especially from where we were coming, and with all manner of rules and mechanisms designed to stop us winning multiple flags.
They get a massive leg up at their shithole of a stadium. 85% Win rate means they can bank 9 wins a year as a starting point. Add in slam dunk away games to struggler sides and they that’s why they are perennial finalists
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