Autopsy Overrun by GWS

[ErrolisGoldun]

Thanks for those on tonight to try and make sense of the 2 half.

A bit like therapy really, has helped me make sense of such an insipid fade out, I feel a bit better and now look forward to more experimentation, time to see what the cygnets in the club have

 

[The King!]

Thanks for those on tonight to try and make sense of the 2 half.

A bit like therapy really, has helped me make sense of such an insipid fade out, I feel a bit better and now look forward to more experimentation, time to see what the cygnets in the club have

Taylor Adams and Ollie Florent return next week

 

[Tedeski]

In fairness our game plan was bang on for the 1st half, we were excellent.

Completely Outcoached in 2nd half and an inability to change. We need a way to minimise the oppos run on. Still a lingering issue from horse.

We will be back better than ever next year.

Kbroome we are now good to go with giving youth a chance.

Our Coaches need a week to plan for oppo. Once they make a change mid game, we can’t adjust quickly enough.

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

What value? Kicking bombs to contests and waiting till tomorrow to kick the thing oh and giving the opposition time to flood back. Great value..he’s fine up forward but I don’t want him near the wing or worse defence again

Was good 1st half, won some ground balls and contests well.

Credit where credits due.

Knows where to run and works his backside off for the cause. Still has value because of that and his experience for the younger players.

Yes he can kick aimlessly but so can a lot of other players and doesn’t help when we don’t have a dominant forward either

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

Our Coaches need a week to plan for oppo. Once they make a change mid game, we can’t adjust quickly enough.

100% has happened on a few occasions this year, Gold Coast another prime example.

Struggle to plan on the run

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Was good 1st half, won some ground balls and contests well.

Credit where credits due.

Knows where to run and works his backside off for the cause. Still has value because of that and his experience for the younger players.

Yes he can kick aimlessly but so can a lot of other players and doesn’t help when we don’t have a dominant forward either

You could have Wayne Carey down there and you aren’t catching Lloyd’s kicks. He was fine as a half forward no idea why we moved the bloke

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

There is no point offering Lloyd a new contract imo.

He isn't going to improve back to his old self and his best this year has been in the 18-22nd range on the list. Therefore it is only down from here where he could in 2026 just be a list clogger. I'd much rather have a rookie selection half back flanker than Lloyd there tbh

You miss the intangibles that an experienced player can provide to a club and a team.

Could also significantly help the 2’s and provide leadership.

A 1yr extension would be fine, but agree not a starting 22, more of a break glass in case of emergency

 

[ErrolisGoldun]

You could have Wayne Carey down there and you aren’t catching Lloyd’s kicks. He was fine as a half forward no idea why we moved the bloke

Harsh considering how highly you rate Francis

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Harsh considering how highly you rate Francis

I’d rate Francis more in the VFL

 

[rustycrate]

I’d rate Francis more in the VFL

I rate your opinion more in the VFL.

 

[Jack2Jack]

All the media talk last year and this has been about our KF's, but it's the other end of the ground that, was last year and still is today, the far bigger issue for mine.
When the play is against us that defence can't absorb anything. Yeah the pressure shouldn't drop off for as long as it does at times, but good sides defences still have to deal with 10-15minute drop offs from time time, difference is they will hold string and only let 3-4 goals through....our current defence just s capitulates and lets through 5-7 goal bursts in real quicktime, undid a first half of great work in minutes tonight and not the first example of that.
We used to be well known in the pre-covid era for our ability to not absorb those periods in games.

If given the choice of only being able to fix one end of the ground and either having to take our current forward group into next year or taking our current defence group into next, I'd take our current forward group 10x over. Defence wins flag, there's premiership sides with average-decent forward lines but none with shit defences.
Our ball movement is reasonable when we're on and while McDonald, Amartey may not be top echelon (at least yet) add them back in plus our goal kicking mids etc there's enough talent to manufacturer competitive scores.....but the only way we defend them is if the mids are on all game and protect the defence so much it's never required to stand on it's own 2 feet.
Even at full strength all our KD's are better suited to being a no. 2 defender, plus our more shaky bottom 6 and/or ageing players are mostly in the defensive end of the ground. Need a lynchpin KD (or prime Rampe type) to set that defence around.

I don't buy the hyperbole of blowing the whole list up, and think 2-3 shrewd moves could easily see us jump up into the top 6......but the caveat being some of those moves have to be around the personnel we have in defence. I mean yeah bolster the forward line too if possible, but I fear if we're prioritising and spending up big to fix the front end we're going to miss the bigger issue and still be having halves like this next year....
TLDR: I could see the Swans winning a flag in the next few years with the core of this list, but not with that defence if it stays as is, there's no way.

 

[Kbroome]

All the media talk last year and this has been about our KF's, but it's the other end of the ground that, was last year and still is today, the far bigger issue for mine.
When the play is against us that defence can't absorb anything. Yeah the pressure shouldn't drop off for as long as it does at times, but good sides defences still have to deal with 10-15minute drop offs from time time, difference is they will hold string and only let 3-4 goals through....our current defence just s capitulates and lets through 5-7 goal bursts in real quicktime, undid a first half of great work in minutes tonight and not the first example of that.
We used to be well known in the pre-covid era for our ability to not absorb those periods in games.

If given the choice of only being able to fix one end of the ground and either having to take our current forward group into next year or taking our current defence group into next, I'd take our current forward group 10x over. Defence wins flag, there's premiership sides with average-decent forward lines but none with shit defences.
Our ball movement is reasonable when we're on and while McDonald, Amartey may not be top echelon (at least yet) add them back in plus our goal kicking mids etc there's enough talent to manufacturer competitive scores.....but the only way we defend them is if the mids are on all game and protect the defence so much it's never required to stand on it's own 2 feet.
Even at full strength all our KD's are better suited to being a no. 2 defender, plus our more shaky bottom 6 and/or ageing players are mostly in the defensive end of the ground. Need a lynchpin KD (or prime Rampe type) to set that defence around.

I don't buy the hyperbole of blowing the whole list up, and think 2-3 shrewd moves could easily see us jump up into the top 6......but the caveat being some of those moves have to be around the personnel we have in defence. I mean yeah bolster the forward line too if possible, but I fear if we're prioritising and spending up big to fix the front end we're going to miss the bigger issue and still be having halves like this next year....
TLDR: I could see the Swans winning a flag in the next few years with the core of this list, but not with that defence if it stays as is, there's no way.

The funny thing is that your theory makes sense off the back of the GWS game but when we have our full defence in play we are a top 6 defence in the league.

The problem is that our best offence at the moment with everyone on the park is middle of the league. Well behind WB, Geelong, Adelaide and GWS.

We are one of the better defensive sides but terrible at converting on the offensive end. We should have burried that game in the second quarter against GWS but we didn't. Yes we didn't have our best forward line but we had most of our wingers missing gettable shots

 

[Jack2Jack]

The funny thing is that your theory makes sense off the back of the GWS game but when we have our full defence in play we are a top 6 defence in the league.

The problem is that our best offence at the moment with everyone on the park is middle of the league. Well behind WB, Geelong, Adelaide and GWS.

We are one of the better defensive sides but terrible at converting on the offensive end. We should have burried that game in the second quarter against GWS but we didn't. Yes we didn't have our best forward line but we had most of our wingers missing gettable shots

No, it's not off one game.
We were THE highest scoring team in the comp last year, we were not in the top 6 defences.
We were a top 6 scoring team in 2023, we were not a top 6 defence in 2023.

So I don't think I could possibly disagree any more if you think we're one of the better defensive sides.
Not sure how or on what planet we're a top 6 defence when we've only achieved that feat twice since 2018? Middle of the road offence can be papered over by a good defence, defence wins flags.

 

[caesar88]

I don't even know what to do with this team anymore. It just goes back to failures, for mine. Too many little individual failures in coaching, recruiting, list management, strength & conditioning all adding up to what we've seen all too often in recent years and again tonight. My head tells me we might be in a bit of trouble in the future, as it's not as bright as many think it is. My heart tells me to just wait and see how we go in 2026, when we're not playing in the shadow of a grand final humiliation so much.

I thought Hamling was our best tonight. He wasn't just holding his own against Hogan, he was beating him outright IMO. Gutted for him that he got injured, but surely he's done enough to warrant a spot on the list for next year.

Hayward was good, especially in the first half. I thought he made some of our forward half work actually look better than it was. He, like the rest, went missing in the second half.

I'm pretty sure Wicks was on Darcy Jones, who has been tearing teams new ones recently. I literally forgot Jones was even playing, he had that little impact, so kudos to Wicks for another scalp.

Rowbottom was great, in that he tackled well and had absolutely no offensive impact in the contest, which seems to be all the coaches are after from him these days, so yippee for another great game I guess.

Blakey, Warner & McInerney were all yuck. Roberts... oy.

I understand the arguments people have been making for holding off playing the likes of Cleary, Dattoli, Snell etc. But I firmly believe this team is not good enough to be keeping quality kids with promising signs out. Hopefully the curtain closing on our finals hopes will allow us to embrace the sense of opportunity more. We have a chance to learn some things about those outside the regular 22. We know pretty much all there is to know about those within it.

 

[WillHayward]

Dont worry.
GF was a one off bad game.
Wait until we get out lads back from injury
We are E leeeeteee.

 

[legend166]

If we ever pick Francis again then we're not a serious club. He either drops the mark or gets the ball and then stands there looking like a deer in the headlights and takes 10 minutes to kick the ball.

Similarly, if we pick Roberts again.

 

[31400]

I realise there were and are multiple issues with our game, but I honestly wouldn't bat an eyelid if Roberts was delisted today. He does nothing well for mine.

A panic merchant with a pea heart. To call him a deer in the headlights would be an insult to the temperament of your average deer.

 

[melbournehammer]

Unlikely. Since we went on a signing spree last year & now have a pile of long term contracts on the books.

On a related topic: I struggle to identify a single player who has improved after signing a long term contract. Most have gone backwards.

To be fair you usually get a Long term contract after you’ve shown your level. Maybe it’s more that you want people to stay at the level. Maybe Florent has dropped - although he was always prone to a turnover. Maybe mills hasn’t got on the park. Who else ?to my mind Hayward has been the only one standing all year. Gulden hasn’t dropped when he’s been on the park. Who else is on long term contracts ?

And I’d say heeney probably fits the mold of the player that has improved.

 

[melbournehammer]

Callaghan just seemed unstoppable in the second half , not sure what you could do other than try to bulldoze him, that acceleration was awesome

He was doing to us what Chad and heeney do to others.

The difference is they have kpp at either end who can mark it and we don’t. If he misses a target and turns it over their back six will get it. And if kicks it forward they’ll mark it or bring it ground.

The frustration I feel from the failures of 2022 and 2024 must be equally large for those who played in both matches but we never fixed the issues - we don’t have a reliable marking defender such as Tom barass. We don’t have a ball winning mid such as lachy Neale and we don’t have athletic tall forwards. We have a lot of guys who try hard all over the ground and heeney who if he has an ordinary game - see gf 2024 or last night - we have nothing behind it.

Their dominance in the centre square in the third quarter was like ports last year, like brisbanes in 2024 and Geelong in 2022.

 

[Banyo Bloods]

Was Gulden injured ?

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

There are some fundamentally unbalanced aspects to this team - I’ve watched this same match repeatedly over the past few years. Inability to score for quarters barely able to score for halves and an inability to score more than 70 points.

Absolutely coupled with a complete inability to win the ball when under pressure. The whole thing in many ways starts with the injury to Sam Reid in the prelim final. From that po8nt onwards a complete inability to compete in the air forward of the ball. We kick it forward to anyone other than heeney and it is marked by the opposition tall defenders.

There’s a reason mccartin was tried forward at the beginning of the year. We are so poor forward of the ball and it’s compounded really really badly by the loss of McLean who is a statue but at least will compete if it’s kicked to his advantage, amartey and McDonald. Grundy is less reliable than Tom hickey as a mark and that reduces our marking power (no matter how much he is doing around the ground)

Behind the ball we have relied on Blakey being third man up to protect the weakness of our one on one defending but now he’s been forced into an unsuitable role of second tall we lose both his spoiling and it’s compounded with his weakness as a one on one defender

But the real r problem is the midfield. We made a bad decision not trading Warner at the top of the market last season. We might have been able to address some of the tall defenders or forwards and probably could have found another player who runs forward but struggles to win his own ball

The midfield under pressure is a disaster. None can win their own ball other than heeney and mills but heeney is not an accountable defensive midfielder so if he doesn’t get it he has run forward of the ball as well - so we are left with rowbottom who can tackle but can’t be everywhere. The really big mids - Callaghan, Greene, day etc just bounce off our mids and keep going - god knows what Josh Kennedy would have done to this team - he would have got 50 posies a match and fired off to handballs for goals.

We are slow and small across the ground. Campbell is not developing in the graveyard of hff and I’d be inclined to shove him on the wing more stringently or back to back pocket.

Robert’s is a trier but he’s slow of foot and slow decision making and he ends up just punting the ball forwards. He’s a glaring weakness at the moment but only because he doesn’t bring anything special - no hardness, no real tackling pressure and no speed on the outside.

This team has glaring weaknesses and it’s been obvious since the middle of last season that we are just a middle ranking team and I’m ok with that, what mom not ok with is decisions not to try and improve full in the knowledge of the weaknesses that have been so obvious that we thought moving our only defender who can mark forwards was a genuine plan. If that didn’t say something I don’t know what can.

In some ways I wish Warner dragged out his contract a little longer. Maybe he wishes he did too…

 

[Wheresbuddy]

Our inability to stop teams when they get on a run is disturbing. Worse is our inability to fully capitalise when we have the running. We shouldve been 6+ goals in front going into half time. There's a big difference psychologically knowing you're only 4 goals down rather than 6+, especially after you've kicked the last and have a bit of momentum.

 

[melbournehammer]

Our inability to stop teams when they get on a run is disturbing. Worse is our inability to fully capitalise when we have the running. We shouldve been 6+ goals in front going into half time. There's a big difference psychologically knowing you're only 4 goals down rather than 6+, especially after you've kicked the last and have a bit of momentum.

Yes but no team should concede what was it 45 points in ten minutes. We saw it in the second quarter in the gf and last night. There is zero ability to stop teams once they get momentum. Whoever said we should have apologised to Wayne Milera (while funny was wrong)

He should have apologised for being wrong not because he said he was so surprised we were so easy to beat but because he shouldn’t have been surprised

There aren’t any swans fans who don’t feel this way whether they are on here or on Facebook or elsewhere. The fans have seem the same movie and have reached the point where they doubt there is any likely improvement

 

[Swans22]

brilliant first half and we should have been further up.
not saying we weren’t ordinary but it’s worth highlighting three main things
-in the second half our 3 key position forwards and backs consisted of Melican, Francis and Buller. No way were we ever going to win when you compare that with Buckley, Taylor, Hogan, Cadman etc its not even fair!
-gulden, paps were clearly not 100%. So with being a couple of rotations down in second half and a couple of players hurt. We were never going to have the run
-giants were crazy good in 3rd quarter. Yes we were ordinary but wow that was impressive

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

The only way to fix it it by removing players over a 5 year period. Never thought I’d ever say this for our club.
We need to change the soft culture we have nurtured since moving to the nice shiny facilities.

The timing with the new facilities does feel uncanny.