Port and Hawthorn success comparison since 1997

[SC_Power]

Port Adelaide was able to construct the nucleus of their premiership team thanks to the AFL's generous start-up rules.

Not that I'm whining about it... It wasn't as generous as West Coast's virtual state side in the early 90's, but it was still way more than Hawthorn ever got from a pair of priority picks.

The AFL gave Hawthorn a couple of freebie draft picks (used on Buddy Franklin and Beau Dowler) but this doesn't compare to Port poaching Wanganeen (superstar, Brownlow, premiership), Primus (12 games for Fitzroy, not picked up by Brisbane), Paxman (100 games for Fitzroy, not picked up by Brisbane), Cummings (good player, left after just 2 seasons), Bond (34 games for West Coast with only 3 in final season), lasted 3 seasons with Port), Bond (Adelaide, not Port Adelaide), Heaver (ok Melbourne and Carlton player, played just 16 games) and Breuer (good player for Geelong, lasted 3 years) from other clubs as their uncontracted player signings and then locking away their young SANFL talent before anyone could draft them: Tredrea, Lade, Francou, Burgoyne, Wilson, James, Dew, Heuskes (traded from Sydney, 4 seasons), Kingsley (delisted by Essendon without playing a game), Mead, Eagleton (3 seasons), Harley (1 game), Lockwood (50 games), Francis (originally delisted Melbourne and Brisbane)

Don't get me wrong. I liked Port's list build and development to the 2004 flag. I wish every expansion team had followed a similar path. The AFL and Port got it just right. Not too little... not too much... and competitive from day 1.

But it's worth noting that Port have never won a flag since (with a playing list assembled under the same rules as everyone else)

Good post, but thought I’d just highlight that the premiership for Port Adelaide wasn’t really built on as much of the start up “concessions” as it was on Port Adelaide’s playing the AFL draft before joining, for which we were slapped with a big fine for something that wasn’t against the rules (as we weren’t an AFL team at the time).

Ive added notes on the above, bolded the key players that stayed out of the draft that was premiership building and not a trade or regular draft. Only Wanganeen from the first team was a valuable addition (Primus and Paxman turned down by Brisbane).

 

[SC_Power]

Since Port joined the AFL in 1997.

Port
619 games
331 wins, 5 draws, 283 losses
Win percentage 53.88%
13 finals series
13 wins 16 losses in finals
8 top 4 home and away finishes
7 preliminary finals
2 grand finals
1 premiership

Hawthorn
621 games
329 wins, 5 draws, 287 losses
Win percentage 53.38%
12 finals series
19 wins 12 losses in finals
8 top 4 home and away finishes
7 preliminary finals
5 grand finals
4 premierships

View attachment 1814618

It's amazing how Port and Hawthorn have remarkably similar records since Port joined the AFL, especially the fact they've both made 7 preliminary finals and had 8 top 4 home and away finishes.
You wouldn't think so given the differential in premierships and grand final appearances.
Just goes to show how important it is to take your chances when you get them.

Port really could be seen as a power club (no pun intended) if they had a better rate at converting top 4 home and away finishes and preliminary final appearances into premierships and grand final appearances.
Ken Hinkley's win percentage of 59.68% is slightly better than Alastair Clarkson's win percentage of 58.97% as Hawthorn coach too.

Can add one more if anyone wants to tally them up for the Hawks, which I know is extremely impressive.

Premiership coaches in Williams and Clarkson, and the coaches that came from their teams and assistants.

Port’s 2004 premiership team alone brought
Head Coaches: Hardwick, Kingsley, Dew, Primus
Assistants: C Cornes, Montgomery, Mahoney, J Carr, Brogan, Lade, Schofield, Francou

and the assistant coaching box was a pretty good one…. Dean Bailey, Phil Walsh, Alistair Clarkson.

 

[peetoo]

Put another way, the AFL latest shiny new toy who they shafted to make room for

V

The club they tied to merge into Melbourne hawks, who were bereft of funds, but were the most successful club in two decades.
Who didn’t get a break from the AFL who were miffed they didn’t get their way

 

[Taper]

Put another way, the AFL latest shiny new toy who they shafted to make room for

V

The club they tied to merge into Melbourne hawks, who were bereft of funds, but were the most successful club in two decades.
Who didn’t get a break from the AFL who were miffed they didn’t get their way

Port were so bad in 2011 they were a meme, remember when Port lost to the bye? That's how bad they were.
Also, they nearly folded, had tarps covering seating bays and were said to be the worse team since Fitzroy 1996.
It was only after Koch and Ken arrived that light began to appear at the end of the tunnel.

Hawthorn never sunk to those depths unless you want to go back to their first 30 years, which is irrelevant here as we're comparing Port and Hawthorn in the AFL era.

 

[Back One Out]

Good post, but thought I’d just highlight that the premiership for Port Adelaide wasn’t really built on as much of the start up “concessions” as it was on Port Adelaide’s playing the AFL draft before joining, for which we were slapped with a big fine for something that wasn’t against the rules (as we weren’t an AFL team at the time).

Ive added notes on the above, bolded the key players that stayed out of the draft that was premiership building and not a trade or regular draft. Only Wanganeen from the first team was a valuable addition (Primus and Paxman turned down by Brisbane).

I realise not all of the players I mentioned were part of the 2004 premiership, but they were part of making Port competitive from the beginning. A lot of talented players. Some were traded after a a few years. e.g Nathan Eagleton was a gun half back. He went to the Bulldogs who gave you Pick 28 (Brent Guerra) and Brett Montgomery back in the trade. Montgomery was your 2000 best and fairest, All Australian in 2002 and played in the '04 premiership.

Scotty Cummings only lasted a couple of couple of seasons with Port (and kicked a lot of goals) before he was traded to West Coast for Jarrad Schofield... Anther 2004 premiership player.

You mention that Primus only played 12 games for Fitzroy and Paxman played 100 for the Roys before both players were overlooked by Brisbane. The Lions were only permitted to list 8 Fitzroy players (Boyd, Barker, Molloy, C.Johnson, Pike, Bamford, Hawking, Carter). But that was their loss. It's irrelevant to the fact that Port SCORED big time with those two. Paxman held down the full back position for the next 7 seasons and won a B&F. Primus dominated in the ruck, won a B&F, was a dual All Australian, captained your club and was bloody unlucky to get injured in 2004 and miss out on holding aloft the cup. He was 2004's "Bob Murphy" but without the media focus.

I wasn't suggesting those 2 were superstars of the comp when you signed them. But they were great for Port Adelaide.. Much better than Beau Dowler or Xavier Ellis were for Hawthorn.

The point of my initial post about it being a silly comparison is that Port was able to put together a fantastic list from the outset. It wasn't like for like. They were instantly better than Hawthorn in 1997 (and over the next several seasons). Hawthorn meanwhile slipped into the near-merger abyss in 1996 after we had dominated the comp over the previous 2 decades. A little similar to now... We had a great run under Clarkson from 2007-2016, but now we are paying the price for adopting a "Win now!" mentality in trade week and not developing enough talented young players over the past 10 years. I wouldn't change much... It netted us a "threepeat"... But that's why we've sucked over the past few years.

Good post too about Hawthorn pinching Port's assistants. Who knows how things would've turned out if we didn't sign Clarkson and end up with Damien Hardwick, Andrew Russell as our fitness coach, plus Stewie Dew, Shaun Burgoyne, Brent Guerra, etc.

Port had the advantage over other expansion clubs of knowing well in advance they were going to be part of the AFL competition and they had loads of good football people in place (and some talented players waiting in the wings) when the AFL finally pulled the trigger on Fitzroy. Port didn't make the same mistakes that some of the other expansion clubs did.

Taper mentioned how John Cahill was unluckily dumped as coach. But I never saw it that way AT ALL. Cahill was the perfect coach to develop the team in it's first few years and then Choco was the perfect man to take over and get them to the next level. That was a seamless coaching transition. You wouldn't change a thing...

 

[tommyk72]

Or we could have stuffed up the picks, for example the one we received for Shaun Burgoyne which you guys gave.

To win one you need alot to go your way but to have 3 in a row, it was more than the prioty picks. Your recruitment and drafting were spot on for the type of game plan as well which was so successful.

Just in 2 minds when it comes to Port and the criticism on Ken, i do think we may need a change but o the flip side, I experienced the lows of the 2007-2012 period and it can be worse. If the team was rebuilt at a better time (no GWS/GC) or we had access to the priority pick system, Ken might be looked at in a different light.

Perhaps not for this thread, but it would be really interesting to see an analysis of the "clean" flag winning teams (and no, this is not a joke on Essendon's behalf...). I'm interested in how many teams have won flags without priority/father son/academy picks since these sorts of concessions were introduced, and how many of each flag winners had.

Not sure where to find that info?

 

[peetoo]

Port were so bad in 2011 they were a meme, remember when Port lost to the bye? That's how bad they were.
Also, they nearly folded, had tarps covering seating bays and were said to be the worse team since Fitzroy 1996.
It was only after Koch and Ken arrived that light began to appear at the end of the tunnel.

Hawthorn never sunk to those depths unless you want to go back to their first 30 years, which is irrelevant here as we're comparing Port and Hawthorn in the AFL era.

Didn’t have the afl cheering on the Demise thoug, that’s the point

 

[peetoo]

Perhaps not for this thread, but it would be really interesting to see an analysis of the "clean" flag winning teams (and no, this is not a joke on Essendon's behalf...). I'm interested in how many teams have won flags without priority/father son/academy picks since these sorts of concessions were introduced, and how many of each flag winners had.

Not sure where to find that info?

Compare the ‘super’ teams and it’s Richmond, hawthorn, Geelong, brisbane. In that order from least help outside ‘pure’ draft picks to most.

Could swap hawthorn and Geelong arguably.


Compensation for buddy leaving on one of the biggest pay deals ever was an absolute joke by the way. Should have been able to draft bontempelli really

 

[vozzon]

Perhaps not for this thread, but it would be really interesting to see an analysis of the "clean" flag winning teams (and no, this is not a joke on Essendon's behalf...). I'm interested in how many teams have won flags without priority/father son/academy picks since these sorts of concessions were introduced, and how many of each flag winners had.

Not sure where to find that info?

Would be very interesting. Just more noticing the list builds of premiership teams and how they were built. Still need a lot to go right, but Ports best team in the early 2000's were based on entering the AFL with concessions and access to players which helped. Compared to the Ken Hinkley era we have fallen short in prelims. Ken would have benefitted from a better list build from the last bottom out, like a priority pick etc.

We are quick to blame coach's and management but it seems some aspects fall out of the decision makers hands and there is also luck involved.

Recently Melbourne, but the F/A pick of lever, trading in Steven May, Saints not picking trac. A few things have led to there list build. Forgot they have Viney as a F/S.

 

[Ralll]

Port play more of an outside running game style which doesn't stack up in finals.
Hawks played a more physical brand with tougher players and leaders which does stack up in finals.

 

[ibd77]

Port play more of an outside running game style which doesn't stack up in finals.
Hawks played a more physical brand with tougher players and leaders which does stack up in finals.

I thought we played an forward pressure with high deference to lock it in style of game. Only for it to fall apart when there is a slight pressure drop and top 8 teams cut through it with precision skills.

We probably transitioned the ball better this year from defense to to forward when we are in control of the game.

Not sure about the outside run part as Wines, Boak & Dursma have played that role this year and they aren't particularly quick.

 

[peetoo]

Clarkos plans were successfully built on chocko plans which got b2b2b minor premierships

I think hawthorn were visibly tougher in finals. Year after year commentary was ‘hawks pretty footy won cut it in finals’ then sure as clockwork they went BANG

Best ever was hawks v eagles which was billed as best offence v best defence. I can’t remember which was which and why would you, the two teams stats were very similar

 

[peetoo]

Would be very interesting. Just more noticing the list builds of premiership teams and how they were built. Still need a lot to go right, but Ports best team in the early 2000's were based on entering the AFL with concessions and access to players which helped. Compared to the Ken Hinkley era we have fallen short in prelims. Ken would have benefitted from a better list build from the last bottom out, like a priority pick etc.

We are quick to blame coach's and management but it seems some aspects fall out of the decision makers hands and there is also luck involved.

Recently Melbourne, but the F/A pick of lever, trading in Steven May, Saints not picking trac. A few things have led to there list build. Forgot they have Viney as a F/S.

Oliver for the compo from frawley? Something like that?

 

[Crankyhawk]

There isnt anything to compare.

Maybe look at Dogs vs Port. Probably a lot closer.

THe comparison is fair - its to highlight the current port coach (Donuts) maintains a good H&A win rate but a s**t finals success rate, yet gets nothing but unquestioning love and adoration by the media, who seem to constantly advocate for him to be re signed in contract years.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Its a bit rich saying the hawks premiership success was a result of priority picks.

2004 we got roughy -> buddy -> lewis

Buddy wasnt a great help winning half those flags (2014/2015)

pick 7 was for trading nathan thompson

2005 - we got xavier ellis -> beau dowler


If there were no priority pick system then we lose out on

lewis and baeu dowler.


If just hawthorn didnt get a priority pick then we lose

roughy and xavier ellis

In either scenario there is only 1 of the players that contributed to all 4 of our premierships.

Were they great players? sure. Is it such a significant addition that this 1 player undermines the achievement of the hawks premierships?

Id say our trading success had a much more significant impact on our premiership success than the priority picks.

And without lewis I think we likely manage to keep Josh Kennedy though whether he would have reached the same heights as he did at sydney is of course up for debate.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Hawthorn won a number of grand finals they would have lost if it wasn't played on their home ground

port barely make it to grand finals

 

[Taper]

THe comparison is fair - its to highlight the current port coach (Donuts) maintains a good H&A win rate but a s**t finals success rate, yet gets nothing but unquestioning love and adoration by the media, who seem to constantly advocate for him to be re signed in contract years.

Any other club would have sacked Hinkley after 2016 at the earliest, or after 2019 at the latest.
It was clear to most people that Hinkley was found out in 2016.

 

[Caligo]

Hawthorn won a number of grand finals they would have lost if it wasn't played on their home ground

When was the last one?

 

[peetoo]

When was the last one?

1991

And hawthorn have the first or second best winning record there but it wasn’t their home ground in1997. Not till 2000

Port lost key prelims at their home ground by the way. Not many non Melbourne teams can say that

 

[theiaofseed]

Hawthorn won a number of grand finals they would have lost if it wasn't played on their home ground

Which ones? How much does a home ground advantage add? 5 goals? 10 goals?

 

[Warhorse]

Which ones? How much does a home ground advantage add? 5 goals? 10 goals?

All of them

 

[theiaofseed]

All of them

Answer the question, how many goals does a home ground advantage give?

 

[peetoo]

Yep 4 flags 1 runner up in the 25 years in the OP
8 flags 5 runners up in the 25 years before that. Home ground not MCG

Only the threepeat mitigates what has been fairly lean times

 

[RonnieRaven]

18 times in the last 34 seasons (counted one extra for Super League) teams from outside of Sydney have won the grand final in the NRL and the majority of those instances have been against sides based in Sydney.
Yes league fields all have almost identical dimensions so that makes it a slightly different factor but there’s not much stock in trying to degrade a side’s win based on where their opposition hails from

How many games do the Sydney teams play in front of 60k at Olympic park per a year???

 

[Taper]

18 times in the last 34 seasons (counted one extra for Super League) teams from outside of Sydney have won the grand final in the NRL and the majority of those instances have been against sides based in Sydney.
Yes league fields all have almost identical dimensions so that makes it a slightly different factor but there’s not much stock in trying to degrade a side’s win based on where their opposition hails from

Do fans of Storm and Broncos complain about the NRL grand final being played in Sydney every year?
For some reason it's mainly fans of WA and SA teams that complain about the AFL grand final being in Melbourne every year.