How has Collingwood managed to be so successful since 2001 while Carlton and Essendon have not?

[Madblue]

We didnt even start the thread pencil dick. . I hang more s**t on Collingwood than any Pies supporter. You should try the same with your dumpster fire of a club now and then. Soothing

Right on cue....and always with personal attacks

 

[Cyber_punk]

They are never down for long as a club. 43 GFs attest to that.

Even in 1999 when they finished as wooden spooners, they were very competitive

 

[Pistol Night]

Right on cue....and always with personal attacks

Well you're such a witty and knowledgeable supporter that rebuffs any facts so brilliantly i have no option but to resort to them. Ill try harder

 

[adammania9]

Luck has played a great role in why we haven’t won more flags. In comparison to the aforementioned two in the thread title, they don’t come close.

 

[Madblue]

Well you're such a witty and knowledgeable supporter that rebuffs any facts so brilliantly i have no option but to resort to them. Ill try harder

Predictable

 

[Madblue]

Luck has played a great role in why we haven’t won more flags. In comparison to the aforementioned two in the thread title, they don’t come close.

Luck, now I've heard everything

 

[Pistol Night]

Predictable

Like Carlton losing every week?

 

[Pistol Night]

Luck, now I've heard everything

Did you hear the one about the blind circumciser? He slipped and got the sack

 

[HairyO]

From a Dons perspective, for starters we held onto Sheedy too long.

Instead of rebuilding post 2002, topping up with the likes of Mark Alvey, Allan, Justin Murphy, Zantuck, Cupido, etc for one last crack obviously didn't work.

We also went over the salary cap around that time, seems like we tried to paper over the cracks by being forced to offload Caracella, Dimma and Heffernan and their contracts to remedy the breach by bringing in the above who were mostly past their best.

Among that there were other odd list mgt. descions, like bringing in Camporeale, Salmon, Mal Michael and many busts at the draft. (To be fair all clubs have duds)

As a result we had a dearth of quality draft picks to build a core group of talent that were taken in consistent drafts. What we got were glimpses of promise with cobbled together, at best middling teams of aging stars, solid soldiers and a small handful of promising players in between. Balance was out of whack, good on their absolute best day to trouble the best but inconsistent and a clear rung or two below the best.

Not sure how much of that is on Sheeds, a misaligned board, Dodo,etc but that 02-05 period contributed to setting us back years.

When the club finally had to be dragged kicking and screaming into getting rid of Sheedy and taking our medicine, Hird's shadow was looming large for a romantic return after Knights. And we all know what happened next.

GWS did the same thing with Sheedy. He should have been Manager of Football not coach. Cost them the coach they wanted then they settled for Cameron, who they also held onto for too long.

 

[adammania9]

Luck, now I've heard everything

Cope

 

[CarnTheScray]

Throw in a salary cap scandal and/or drug scandal into the Collingwood football club and let see how they'd cope.

Isn’t that the point though. They faced neither of those things as they didn’t need to turn to cheating once we turned into a national competition.

 

[Madblue]

Like Carlton losing every week?

Yep

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Flags are a mark but not the only mark.

Making finals is another.

Making a GF (winning a prelim) another.

Lack of scandals is another.

Avoiding the Spoon is another.

Crowds is another.

TV ratings is another.

Membership is another.

Pies have done well on all of the above.

Only the most miserable prick can deny the Pies have been very professional in recent times.

No denying the Pies have been competitive. However I reckon the McGuire-Buckley decade cost the Club more success. McGuire became a racist boofhead dinosaur and Bucks could not coach a Globetrotters win over the Generals.

But they have righted the ship, tackled some issues and employed a terrific Coach.

Off field is stable and the right crew for now, recruitment and development are pretty spot on.

My mob have been pretty competitive and enjoyed some success, tho not as much as some others.

Carlton will continue to yoyo between mid table and Spoonland while their Board and coterie groups are run by highly dubious people. SOS totally screwed Carlton through dumb drafting and worse trading. Only now via Power have they addressed development. They need a significant reset of the list. I see no prospect of Board stability.

Essendon Should have given Sheedy the gold watch and moved him on at the end of 2001. People like Watson have been malevolent influences in the multiple knifings at that joint. Everyone has a view on the drug saga but imo it masked that Hird couldn't coach and that Bomber was addled. They have a chance of moving forward. As an external their fans are more realistic than the Blues.

 

[#23 Hill]

Successful? We've done nothing.

 

[Fadge]

Have they really been that successful? 1 flag since 2001

The amount of worship for the current team and Mcrae in particular is kind of sickening you would think they are coming off a three-peat the way people talk about them

That will come, in 2026...

 

[Koopa]

Weren't they still good in 2002? I don't really remember. Hope we don't spend 20 plus years in the wilderness lol.

We were decent, but had lost our aura, a clear step down from Port and Brisbane. We definitely held onto players for far too long in that era, something which has also been a sore point in recent years. Felt at the time that with some more ruthless list desicions we could've regenerated quicker.

For guys like Misiti, Wellman, Barnard, Alessio and Mercuri the end came pretty quickly.

 

[Rich01]

No denying the Pies have been competitive. However I reckon the McGuire-Buckley decade cost the Club more success. McGuire became a racist boofhead dinosaur and Bucks could not coach a Globetrotters win over the Generals.

But they have righted the ship, tackled some issues and employed a terrific Coach.

Off field is stable and the right crew for now, recruitment and development are pretty spot on.

My mob have been pretty competitive and enjoyed some success, tho not as much as some others.

Carlton will continue to yoyo between mid table and Spoonland while their Board and coterie groups are run by highly dubious people. SOS totally screwed Carlton through dumb drafting and worse trading. Only now via Power have they addressed development. They need a significant reset of the list. I see no prospect of Board stability.

Essendon Should have given Sheedy the gold watch and moved him on at the end of 2001. People like Watson have been malevolent influences in the multiple knifings at that joint. Everyone has a view on the drug saga but imo it masked that Hird couldn't coach and that Bomber was addled. They have a chance of moving forward. As an external their fans are more realistic than the Blues.

Spot on.

The board, and most notably the Matheson, Elliot and Pratt families, have made football decisions for far too long at the Blues. They have long believed in messiahs and short term fixes, rather than focusing on process. And when they did look at a long term rebuild they still gave the fans the blood they lusted for by sacking several of their coaches along the way.

Essendon have had Sheedy pull them down internally for a long period of time as well. Brad Scott was a good appointment because he’s a strong enough character to withstand Sheedys backroom tactics, even if the latter didn’t want him as coach.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Collingwood appear to have a distinct lack of influential, destabilising forces within their supporter base. I’d say that’s the biggest difference.

 

[Nebular]

So microwaving those memberships for 35 years was part of the pleasure/anticipation?

This seems excessive. Surely a couple of minutes would do the trick?

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Arguably the big 3 Vic clubs, 15, 16 and 16 VFL/AFL premierships with the biggest overall supporter bases in Vic, yet since the Bombers lost in 2001, neither Carlton or Essendon have played in a GF (and barely won any finals), while Collingwood have played in 5 grand finals (if we count 2010 as one) and always seem to be challenging, albeit still losing most GFs, at a frequency similar to Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong and the Coasters.

I know Carlton has had it's struggles, as has Essendon, a lot related to club management, scandals etc, but how come the Pies keep challenging while these two other greats are in the doldrums? What changed since the 90s?

Collingwood in that time have only won just one more flag than Carlton and Essendon. So i certainly wouldn't consider that as much of a success.

How about we compare both of these clubs to proper modern day powerhouses, like the Cats, Tigers and Hawks instead.

Collingwood have been all fart and no since 1936 imo.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Collingwoods finishing positions after finals 2001-2022
9th, 2nd, 2nd, 13th, 15th, 7th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 12th, 13th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 17th, 3rd

Average position: 7.1
Making finals:14 out of 22 years. (64%)
Preliminary finals: 10 out of 22 years (45%)
Grand final appearances: 5 out of 22 years (23%)
Holding up the cup: 1 out of 22 (4%)

An average team (based of an average of 17 teams in the comp over the last 22 years)
Average position 9
Making finals (47%)
Preliminay finals (24%)
Grand final appearances (12%)
Holding up the cup (6%)

So if you are counting premierships only then they are a below average team over the last 22 years (although I doubt it is statistically significant). But they are way above average for making grand finals and preliminary finals. They are also better then most at getting into finals.

 

[Fadge]

Collingwoods finishing positions after finals 2001-2022
9th, 2nd, 2nd, 13th, 15th, 7th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 12th, 13th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 17th, 3rd

Average position: 7.1
Making finals:14 out of 22 years. (64%)
Preliminary finals: 10 out of 22 years (45%)
Grand final appearances: 5 out of 22 years (23%)
Holding up the cup: 1 out of 22 (4%)

An average team (based of an average of 17 teams in the comp over the last 22 years)
Average position 8.5
Making finals (47%)
Preliminay finals (24%)
Grand final appearances (12%)
Holding up the cup (6%)

So if you are counting premierships only then they are a below average team over the last 22 years. But they are way above average for making grand finals and preliminary finals. They are also better then most at getting into finals.

The same analysis for Carlton would be interesting.

 

[PieLebo87]

Collingwood in that time have only won just one more flag than Carlton and Essendon. So i certainly wouldn't consider that as much of a success.

Considering how long it is taking both Essendon and Carlton to win a final, let alone truly challenge for a flag, having one more flag is enough of a success.

How about we compare both of these clubs to proper modern day powerhouses, like the Cats, Tigers and Hawks instead.

These 3 clubs have a gap between them and the rest of the competition, let alone minnows like Carlton of the last 20 years. Don’t get why it’s so controversial when you and I know Carlton hasn’t had anywhere near the success of Collingwood in the last 20 years.

Collingwood have been all fart and no since 1936 imo.

Arbitrary figures being used again… why not 1934? Or 1927?

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Considering how long it is taking both Essendon and Carlton to win a final, let alone truly challenge for a flag, having one more flag is enough of a success.



These 3 clubs have a gap between them and the rest of the competition, let alone minnows like Carlton of the last 20 years. Don’t get why it’s so controversial when you and I know Carlton hasn’t had anywhere near the success of Collingwood in the last 20 years.



Arbitrary figures being used again… why not 1934? Or 1927?

There's more to to the AFL than the last twenty years imo, and yeah the past twenty one years have been the worst in our history.

The Bombers have been in the doldrums as well, and yet both Carlton and Essendon despite the barren periods both clubs have endured, still have more flags than anyone else.

 

[PieLebo87]

There's more to to the AFL than the last twenty years imo, and yeah the past twenty one years have been the worst in our history.

It’s far more natural to be comparing the last 20-25 years since that has a memory for most people on here to reflect upon. Using arbitrary figures like 1936 and 1959 etc. is just a silly way to position your argument to suit the #s you’re about to share.

The Bombers have been in the doldrums as well, and yet both Carlton and Essendon despite the barren periods both clubs have endured, still have more flags than anyone else.

No one is refuting that. The gap though has gotten smaller between these two and the Cats/Hawks/Tigs.

Do you genuinely believe Collingwood hasn’t been more successful than Essendon and Carlton in the last 20 years though?