How has Collingwood managed to be so successful since 2001 while Carlton and Essendon have not?

[Irish BlueBagger]

It’s far more natural to be comparing the last 20-25 years since that has a memory for most people on here to reflect upon. Using arbitrary figures like 1936 and 1959 etc. is just a silly way to position your argument to suit the #s you’re about to share.

No one is refuting that. The gap though has gotten smaller between these two and the Cats/Hawks/Tigs.

Do you genuinely believe Collingwood hasn’t been more successful than Essendon and Carlton in the last 20 years though?

It's clubs like Hawthorn when they were at their best, and Geelong that Carlton need to aspire to and learn from imo.

Collingwood have been very competitive over the past twenty years, but you have a serious problem performing in grand finals for some reason.

 

[PieLebo87]

It's clubs like Hawthorn when they were at their best, and Geelong that Carlton need to aspire to and learn from imo.

Collingwood have been very competitive over the past twenty years, but you have a serious problem performing in grand finals for some reason.

Don’t think that’s fair. Outside 2003, we have performed perfectly fine in GFs in the last 20 years.

Not many sides were beating the Lions in 2002, so to get within 9 points of them was a gallant effort.

Same thing can be argued about that 2011 GF/Cats era - Hawks needed a bit of luck with inaccuracy to get them in 2008. Pies needed one of their best ever sides to get a premiership in 2010 when Cats/Hawks/Saints were up.

2018 is another GF that wasn’t for a lack of effort or performance. It was decided by 5 points.

Luck plays a huge part.

 

[pz5151]

Throw in a salary cap scandal and/or drug scandal into the Collingwood football club and let see how they'd cope. The after effects of those on both clubs have created an interesting domino effect into the psyche and fabric of the clubs and resulted in major changes that still have somewhat not recovered.

You say that as if those situations were forced upon Essendon and Carlton. The fact that one chose to cheat the salary cap and the other run a club wide doping program is part of why they have been badly run clubs for the last two decades.

 

[mcgrath_truther]

Same thing can be argued about that 2011 GF/Cats era - Hawks needed a bit of luck with inaccuracy to get them in 2008. Pies needed one of their best ever sides to get a premiership in 2010 when Cats/Hawks/Saints were up.

to be fair, hawks did rush 11 of those behinds, which lead to the rules being changed

 

[jj1978]

You say that as if those situations were forced upon Essendon and Carlton. The fact that one chose to cheat the salary cap and the other run a club wide doping program is part of why they have been badly run clubs for the last two decades.

You haven’t seen what scandals have done fir your club even quite recently (Eddie cough cough).. just been fortunate you haven’t been whacked with being kicked out of draft for a few years and such. Collingwood for their “well run ness” still have only won 1 premiership since 1990.

 

[Pistol Night]

You haven’t seen what scandals have done fir your club even quite recently (Eddie cough cough).. just been fortunate you haven’t been whacked with being kicked out of draft for a few years and such. Collingwood for their “well run ness” still have only won 1 premiership since 1990.

The correct Bigfooty timeline is 2 in 80 I think

 

[PieLebo87]

to be fair, hawks did rush 11 of those behinds, which lead to the rules being changed

Even minus those 11, they ended up on 11.12 with a few gettable misses early. Went into HT 6.8 (6.12 including rushed behinds) and should’ve been far more in control of the game at that stage.

That Hawks side deserved that flag, but got lucky against the Cats that day. 3 years later in the ‘11 GF, Cats kicked 18.8 against us.

 

[mcgrath_truther]

Even minus those 11, they ended up on 11.12 with a few gettable misses early. Went into HT 6.8 (6.12 including rushed behinds) and should’ve been far more in control of the game at that stage.

That Hawks side deserved that flag, but got lucky against the Cats that day. 3 years later in the ‘11 GF, Cats kicked 18.8 against us.

ofc, but you'd have to wonder what'd happen if they didn't game the system and get to the position that gave another few goals to geelong

 

[My Tilly]

Carlton got done for breaching the salary cap so their demise is obvious but Essendon's a strange one.
They've always had a talent, great facilities and a pretty solid culture so why they have stunk it up for the best part of 20 years is bewildering. I never liked Matthew Knights

Matthew Knights

Age

53

Ht

178cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.3

5star

K

12.0

4star

HB

9.3

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

18.4

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

7.6

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

as a coach and he was a shocker during his time at Essendon.

 

[caloschwaby]

Thread about Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon and somehow a Richmond supporter has to make it all about them.

I swear there isn't a more insecure, pathetic supporter base on this website.

Richmond aren't even the biggest club in Richmond...

 

[BigVic]

We only had a bad season in 2021 when we drafted Nick Daicos and shot back up the rankings 12 months later with a new coach, new CEO and a new President

 

[blaisee]

Arguably the big 3 Vic clubs, 15, 16 and 16 VFL/AFL premierships with the biggest overall supporter bases in Vic, yet since the Bombers lost in 2001, neither Carlton or Essendon have played in a GF (and barely won any finals), while Collingwood have played in 5 grand finals (if we count 2010 as one) and always seem to be challenging, albeit still losing most GFs, at a frequency similar to Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong and the Coasters.

I know Carlton has had it's struggles, as has Essendon, a lot related to club management, scandals etc, but how come the Pies keep challenging while these two other greats are in the doldrums? What changed since the 90s?

2 flags in 80 years is not success

 

[Malifice]

Carlton lost an entire generation to the Salary Cap penalties (and chronic list mismanagement leading up to it).

Then we ****ed that up with poor drafting after the fact, our record in the 1st round has not been great.

Remains to be seen if the current list is up to it or not. Been about as up and down this year as you can possibly be.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

The correct Bigfooty timeline is 2 in 80 I think

2 in 35, to Carlton's 1

 

[Papa G]

 

[Toump Ass]

3 years later in the ‘11 GF, Cats kicked 18.8 against us.

Up until 3/4 time that was shaping up as one of the greatest games of all time. Incredible skills at ridiculous intensity.

 

[PieLebo87]

Up until 3/4 time that was shaping up as one of the greatest games of all time. Incredible skills at ridiculous intensity.

One of my favourite games of footy. Was a bloody great Grand Final.

 

[Fadge]

One of my favourite games of footy. Was a bloody great Grand Final.

Hang on.

Shouldn't you be triggered by Geelong and the likes of Ablett, Bartel, Johnson and Hawkins for potentially costing your team multiple flags?

You're not doing this right.

 

[PieLebo87]

Hang on.

Shouldn't you be triggered by Geelong and the likes of Ablett, Bartel, Johnson and Hawkins for potentially costing your team multiple flags?

You're not doing this right.

Yet still get called one-eyed despite being able to appreciate a good game of footy!

 

[Freomaniac]

Collingwood in that time have only won just one more flag than Carlton and Essendon. So i certainly wouldn't consider that as much of a success.

How about we compare both of these clubs to proper modern day powerhouses, like the Cats, Tigers and Hawks instead.

Collingwood have been all fart and no since 1936 imo.

Interesting Position your team is on the ladder after the regular season is done.

Carlton is 5th and has a non vic side in Sydney at the mcg. That is winnable.

Then the magpies or demons up if carlton wins week 1

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Interesting Position your team is on the ladder after the regular season is done.

Carlton is 5th and has a non vic side in Sydney at the mcg. That is winnable.

Then the magpies or demons up if carlton wins week 1

We'll worry about the Swans first, but if we get through then we do have a tough game awaiting us for sure.

I didn't think we'd be even here after the Essendon defeat in June!

Our record was one win in nine games at that point. It sure has been a weird season!

 

[My Tilly]

They've accomplished less then Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, West Coast, Richmond, Brisbane. The same as Port Adelaide, Bulldogs. That's 8 teams with more or the same level of flags in that time. Carlton and Essendon have been completely incompetent, but Collingwood have not been 'so successful'. In fact, if you move the timeframe 1 year earlier, Essendon have accomplished the exact same as them.

This didn't age well.

 

[JyeDye]

This didn't age well.

What's the bolded got to do with anything?

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Collingwoods finishing positions after finals 2001-2022
9th, 2nd, 2nd, 13th, 15th, 7th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 12th, 13th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 17th, 3rd

Average position: 7.1
Making finals:14 out of 22 years. (64%)
Preliminary finals: 10 out of 22 years (45%)
Grand final appearances: 5 out of 22 years (23%)
Holding up the cup: 1 out of 22 (4%)

An average team (based of an average of 17 teams in the comp over the last 22 years)
Average position 9
Making finals (47%)
Preliminay finals (24%)
Grand final appearances (12%)
Holding up the cup (6%)

So if you are counting premierships only then they are a below average team over the last 22 years (although I doubt it is statistically significant). But they are way above average for making grand finals and preliminary finals. They are also better then most at getting into finals.f

2001-2023
Finals: 15/23 (65%)
Preliminary finals 11/23 (48%)
Grand final appearances 6/23 (26%)
Premiers 2/23 (9%)

Looking better now

Consistently good in fact probably second behind Geeong for finals but not great like Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn or Richmond when it comes to premierships.

 

[Blue1980]

Pies have been a well run club over that time period. Richmond for maybe a bit over half that time.

Carlton we are only just starting to get rolling after a lot of poor decisions between 2002-15.

Been stuff ups since but we have been on an overall good trajectory last 7-8 years on and off the field.

Essendon also been a poorly run club over much of this time frame.

What will happen eventually is all or most of the big 4 will be humming at the same time.