Expansion Proposal for a Truly National AFL

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Blackas87

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I appreciate the support, honestly.

But if you don't believe in 4 divisions of 12 teams, can you please propose an alternative, based on pro/rel divisional system?
Well I haven’t thought about it in detail as much as yourself but I would have the top division between 16-20 teams and keep the top 8 finals system. Probably more towards 16 teams playing everyone home and away for a 30 game season.

Then only a 2nd division with preferably the same amount of teams as division one but doesn’t have to be.

I think a 3rd and 4th national division would lose interest so for a Third tier I’d go down to state leagues. With stronger regional teams say in Victoria Bendigo, Ballarat, Shepparton, Albury/Wadonga aiming to become state champions and earn a spot on the national stage would make the VFL more appealing to watch. Like wise in Queensland, clubs from Maroochydore, Cairns, Townsville, Rockhampton along with clubs in Brisbane (Aspley) and the Gold Coast (Southport) interest in the game will grow. Its up to those clubs to grow the game in that region if they want to be on the national stage.

I’d also keep the salary cap, I don’t think we want super clubs winning the top division every year but I wouldn’t have a salary floor. The lower leagues would abide by the same salary cap as the top division so potentially an investor could put money into a club/region and build them up.

No drafts, I’ve said this in other threads I’m not a fan of them. Players getting picked up by random clubs that they had no choice over, basically putting their career in other peoples hands.
 

Tonatopia

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Probably more towards 16 teams playing everyone home and away for a 30 game season.
Due to the intensity of our game, I don't think the players could play any more than 22 h&a games. I think this is our limit.

I note your other points, especially salary cap. I'm not sure that it is legal to put restraints on trade. A decent lawyer would outlaw the salary cap if challenged in court.
 

RedV3x

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So you are defining "general population" as excluding the Greek, Italian, Macedonian, Croatian and Serbian communities? Really? .
So you are defining all the Greek, Italian, Macedonian, Croatian and Serbian communities as being NSL fans ? Really?
That doesn't align with crowd figures does it.

FYI the Croatian influence is biggest in Perth were they are an important part of WAFL history.
 

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RedV3x

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I note your other points, especially salary cap. I'm not sure that it is legal to put restraints on trade. A decent lawyer would outlaw the salary cap if challenged in court.
You have no idea.
Employers in every industry put conditions on employment.
Franchisees also have to follow the company line.
There is no restraint of trade - people are free to play football for whoever they like of form their own competition.
You are free to form your own competition instead of just talking about it - do it and good luck.
 

The_Wookie

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Due to the intensity of our game, I don't think the players could play any more than 22 h&a games. I think this is our limit.

I note your other points, especially salary cap. I'm not sure that it is legal to put restraints on trade. A decent lawyer would outlaw the salary cap if challenged in court.
Lawyers cant outlaw anything.

The AFL would have to prove that the salary cap and draft are necessary for competitive balance, there is divided opinion on this, but the results do kind of speak well for it (17 of 18 teams have won or made the grand final since 1990, and the 18th team didnt exist before 2010)

Quite how the top two google results for AFL and restraint of trade are my work baffles me a little, but heres a summary i put together on this

 

RedV3x

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But if you don't believe in 4 divisions of 12 teams, can you please propose an alternative, based on pro/rel divisional system?
Well, IMO, a practical promotion/relegation system would be:
The AFL as it stands and the bottom side played the winner of a national championship for the right to play AFL.
The problem with most promotion/relegation systems is that they are automatic.
Imagine the extra interest the EPL would generate if teams had to play off instead of being automatically swapped.
In some amateur systems teams have to perform over a two year period so as to eliminate flukes.
Doesn't that sound more constructive ?
 

Blackas87

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Due to the intensity of our game, I don't think the players could play any more than 22 h&a games. I think this is our limit.

I note your other points, especially salary cap. I'm not sure that it is legal to put restraints on trade. A decent lawyer would outlaw the salary cap if challenged in court.
I think with modern training, sports sciences and recovery programs they can play more games, up to the clubs and coaches not to burn their players out, they don’t have to play players 30 games.

Don’t think a salary cap would be illegal, players and clubs can choose to play in else where without caps.

potentially clubs could be allowed a limited number of marquee players paid outside the cap though.
 

RedV3x

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Why are people so determined to have the AFL emulate soccer or american sports? Our sport is fine, it doesn't need any influence from other countries sporting codes.
That is correct and people don't know their history.
Australians created and codified their own football that became immediately popular.
Players formed the first ever community football clubs, playing regularly in a league for a premiership.
They were the first to play in enclosed grounds and charge admittance for the development of the game.
The world has benn following Australia's lead ever since.
 

Kwality

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Subi should have got that AFL spot instead of West Coast. And I'm not a Subi fan. I personally don't get the appeal of plastic franchises with zero tradition.

Can you imagine if (say) Rangers and Celtic were barred from the Scottish Premiership and a new fake mega-club was put in there (let's call it, say, Glasgow United)? Celtic and Rangers would keep 90% of their crowds and Glasgow United would have tiny crowds for at least a generation. But West Australia is not like that.

I'm old enough to remember:
1986: "Hey, guys, I'm diehard East Perth, Royals till die, mate. Black and blue forever, never miss a game, got a Royals tattoo".

1987, same guy: "Hey, guys, I'm die-hard Eagles, Eagles till die, mate. Gold and blue forever, never miss a game. ... East Perth?....Ah, don't they play WAFL or something? Are they still going?".
As a Subi fan of that era, it was hard, 6 or 7 from your 86 flag playing for the Eagles.
It took a few years for the WA footy public to come across.
You articulate the opinion of the typical VFL fan.
I lived in Melbourne in the early 80s & was a member of the Blues in those days based primarily on Fitz who played for Subi while a schoolboy.
 

Kwality

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The NSL had promotion and relegation back to the state leagues for most of its life. Towards the end, it was done sporadically with a lot of exceptions.
Without a timeline on the period you refer to its a little difficult to comment.
When did the NSL go national?
 

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RedV3x

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Do we want the Fitzroy mess again?
I'm sure people are happy with Brisbane's premierships.

South Melbourne relocation again?
I'm sure people are happy with Sydney's premierships.

Where’s North Melbourne going again?
I have to question North's leadership that cannot commit to any single action.

Are we happy with this mess in the AFL?
What mess are you alluding to ?
 

Blackas87

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I'm sure people are happy with Brisbane's premierships.



I'm sure people are happy with Sydney's premierships.



I have to question North's leadership that cannot commit to any single action.



What mess are you alluding to ?
The mess that Fitzroy fans and South Melbourne fans lost out on their club. The ones that missed out going to the footy week in week out to watch their clubs rise up and win a premiership. That same mess that daunts North Melbourne fans.
 

Kwality

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I'm sure people are happy with Brisbane's premierships.



I'm sure people are happy with Sydney's premierships.



I have to question North's leadership that cannot commit to any single action.



What mess are you alluding to ?
The need for a FIXture to accomodate 9 teams in one city hangs over the credibility of our game.
 

RedV3x

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As a Subi fan of that era,
If the AFL had been created rather than evolved then i'm sure things would have developed differently.
There were times when the WAFL teams were suggested to be aligned with a national team.
East Perth and West Perth were suggested as a joint northern venture.
East Fremantle and South Fremantle were always going to be a strong southern unit.
Subiaco and Claremont would be the west coast cats.
That leaves Perth and Swan Districts and with the addition of Peel that led to an even distribution of three potential AFL identities.
Swan Districts being north, Perth being west coast and Peel being southern.

This arrangement would have led to a much stronger WAFL/AFL interaction and better health of the game.
 

Blackas87

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Little doubt the AFL administration want to be NFLlite.
As a Melbourne supporter watching Jesse Hogan getting drafted across the other side of the country to a club he probably perceived as the laughing stock of the league, had seen the poor development of Cale Morton, Jack Watts and others before him, then the supporter base see him as the great white hope and he gets the the AFL’s base rate first year contract for all that.
 

The_Wookie

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If the AFL had been created rather than evolved then i'm sure things would have developed differently.
There were times when the WAFL teams were suggested to be aligned with a national team.
East Perth and West Perth were suggested as a joint northern venture.
East Fremantle and South Fremantle were always going to be a strong southern unit.
Subiaco and Claremont would be the west coast cats.
That leaves Perth and Swan Districts and with the addition of Peel that led to an even distribution of three potential AFL identities.
Swan Districts being north, Perth being west coast and Peel being southern.

This arrangement would have led to a much stronger WAFL/AFL interaction and better health of the game.
Genuine question -

Do you have more information on this? I havent seen this in my reading anywhere.

A big part of why we have what we did is the reluctance of the WAFL and SANFL to allow individual clubs to move on to a national comp - as I understand it, both proposed composite sides from the start.

East/South Freo did launch a bid for a VFL team not long after the Eagles, West Perth voted against joining the VFL, and Subiaco were pretty well off financially.
 

Kwality

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Genuine question -

Do you have more information on this? I havent seen this in my reading anywhere.

A big part of why we have what we did is the reluctance of the WAFL and SANFL to allow individual clubs to move on to a national comp - as I understand it, both proposed composite sides from the start.

East/South Freo did launch a bid for a VFL team not long after the Eagles, West Perth voted against joining the VFL, and Subiaco were pretty well off financially.
Subi's financial advantage was its licenced premises on site at Subi Oval. That strength was relative to other WAFL clubs
& it was being fed by the likes of the Hawks leasing Gary Buckenara.
No one imagined a Royals fan starting to follow Subi, the Eagles were a compromise, see the growth of crowds over the 1987-96 years.
 
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Rob

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Subi should have got that AFL spot instead of West Coast. And I'm not a Subi fan. I personally don't get the appeal of plastic franchises with zero tradition.

Can you imagine if (say) Rangers and Celtic were barred from the Scottish Premiership and a new fake mega-club was put in there (let's call it, say, Glasgow United)? Celtic and Rangers would keep 90% of their crowds and Glasgow United would have tiny crowds for at least a generation. But West Australia is not like that.

I'm old enough to remember:
1986: "Hey, guys, I'm diehard East Perth, Royals till die, mate. Black and blue forever, never miss a game, got a Royals tattoo".

1987, same guy: "Hey, guys, I'm die-hard Eagles, Eagles till die, mate. Gold and blue forever, never miss a game. ... East Perth?....Ah, don't they play WAFL or something? Are they still going?".
Funny you bring up Rangers, who died about 8 years ago, replaced by a 'fake mega club' also called Rangers and were just as fanatically followed as the previous club. Simply because they were called Rangers.

Seems Scottish soccer fans simply follow a name, not a club.
 

Blackas87

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Funny you bring up Rangers, who died about 8 years ago, replaced by a 'fake mega club' also called Rangers and were just as fanatically followed as the previous club. Simply because they were called Rangers.

Seems Scottish soccer fans simply follow a name, not a club.
Fake mega club? What is a club? What makes a club mega?

When in the fourth level of the Scottish football system for 2012/13 season Rangers averaged 45,750 fans across 18 games. Show fans want to watch their club at any level, you can’t fake that.

Should the fans of Rangers not have a club to follow anymore?
 

RedV3x

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A big part of why we have what we did is the reluctance of the WAFL and SANFL to allow individual clubs to move on to a national comp - as I understand it, both proposed composite sides from the start.
That is my recollection also.

East/South Freo did launch a bid for a VFL team not long after the Eagles, West Perth voted against joining the VFL, and Subiaco were pretty well off financially.
I'm not sure of the timing. I cannot remember West Perth voting to join the VFL, but i presume it was about the same time.
I do know that there was a lot of speculation as to a joint venture, naming colours and probably playing out of the W.A.C.A.
Subiaco, despite being financially well off never had the fans.
West Perth had a good following and the Joondalup zoning. East Perth had the neighbouring north of Perth zoning and it had Perth Oval.
From memory it was pretty intense for a while but short-lived.

EDIT
"By 1980, the club (EP)had made a submission to enter the VFL/AFL" https://australian-rules-football.fandom.com/wiki/East_Perth_Football_Club
1986 West Perth voted against joining the VFL and a combined West Coast Eagles team selected.
1993 Fremantle Dockers admitted to AFL.
East Perth and West Perth probably regrouped prior to Fremantle's admittance when it was evident that national football
needed to be played every week in Perth.
 
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