Preview R2: Changes v Port

[MRB37]

No I am not. I was at the SANFL game on the weekend, looking forward to seeing Knight and Cameron really pressing their claim as I would prefer them in the team, but they were not quite up to the standard we require. You said you wanted Mackay out for either Knight or Cameron and I'm saying, on what I saw, Cameron is not ready and Knight maybe if you only looked at the half a game he did.

I would put Seedsman in the 6/10 mark as well on the weekend, so why is no one calling for his head? Sloane was bad. Why no one calling for him to be dropped? Crouch and Atkins both thought they were playing SANFL. No calling for them to be dropped. Why do those players get a leeway? Because the group think is that Mackay is bad and can't improve on that 6/10. He has played well above that before but hasn't reached those heights in a while, I agree, but there is the possibility there and I'm willing to wait a little longer than one game in the proper season to hang him out to dry. He isn't John Butcher.

We allow the others more leeway because we trust that they can get to the higher level again, except that Sloane has been poor all pre-season, well below his standard that I expect to see from him. Mackay has performed okay, and done some good things.

I found it interesting that he was equal first (with the poor Sloane) for pressure acts, which implies hardness at the ball carrier, which is something people say he doesn't do well. Those stats seem to say otherwise.

Mackay had all of last year to improve and all he did was get worse. Are we going through the same ride again expecting different results? He has absolutely stagnated as a player since 2013.

I'm not rooting for him to fail, I'd love for him to start performing consistently like he's shown in flashes, but I don't think he's ever going to be capable of doing that. At what point do we say "enough is enough" with the bloke? Or do we continue marching on with him and hope one day he'll turn it around? He's 27, turning 28 this year and has nearly played 150 games. How many players suddenly have career years at that age?

 

[1990crow]

No I am not. I was at the SANFL game on the weekend, looking forward to seeing Knight and Cameron really pressing their claim as I would prefer them in the team, but they were not quite up to the standard we require. You said you wanted Mackay out for either Knight or Cameron and I'm saying, on what I saw, Cameron is not ready and Knight maybe if you only looked at the half a game he did.

I would put Seedsman in the 6/10 mark as well on the weekend, so why is no one calling for his head? Sloane was bad. Why no one calling for him to be dropped? Crouch and Atkins both thought they were playing SANFL. No calling for them to be dropped. Why do those players get a leeway? Because the group think is that Mackay is bad and can't improve on that 6/10. He has played well above that before but hasn't reached those heights in a while, I agree, but there is the possibility there and I'm willing to wait a little longer than one game in the proper season to hang him out to dry. He isn't John Butcher.

We allow the others more leeway because we trust that they can get to the higher level again, except that Sloane has been poor all pre-season, well below his standard that I expect to see from him. Mackay has performed okay, and done some good things.

I found it interesting that he was equal first (with the poor Sloane) for pressure acts, which implies hardness at the ball carrier, which is something people say he doesn't do well. Those stats seem to say otherwise.

And yet he had 13 touches, as a midfielder. Which is what he is selected as. Not a pressure act specialist. Only small forwards who kick goals is that stat relevant.

 

[VSTone]

from what i can gather a pressure act is almost getting in the way of the opposition...
the stat is a load of shit...

let's imagine the scenario - you get the pill and look up you see Dmac, Thommo, and Dougie - which way do you go?

you choose the path of least resistance without hesitation... DMac invites pressure acts...

this is the sort of stat that goes into the player ratings system... so no wonder it's a load of crapola too

 

[DJ75]

Selection committee historically has responded only when our team is humiliated on the park.

"Why change a winning formula?"

"Why overreact to a narrow loss?"

You can also add:

"We need to give the guys a chance to respond"

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Let's wait and see?

I'll bet you at match committee if the idea was thrown around the answer would be that those guys haven't trained with the defensive group, and who would replace VB's ability to organise the troops back there?

I'm not joking.

You are joking ......seriously?

Plenty of defenders in SANFL side .....plus Milera played HB for U18 side last championship

 

[Stiffy_18]

Knight could easily fill that position!

Depending on fitness, Cameron could too…he shouldn't be pigeon-holed as a forward pocket his whole career.

Not every selection has to be an exact like for like swap either, players are allowed to play a slightly different position one week to the next. Sloane could easily play wing, Seedsman could easily play half back, Douglas, Milera…the list goes on.

Or we could set a ridiculously low benchmark.

Speaking of positional paradigms…one wonders if VB gets his spot because early on in the pre-season it was determined that he was to be our 'team defence' set-up leader behind the ball? #non-statistical

Look all those are valid points and I have been of the opinion that Cameron will push onto the wing when he develops his engine. The question is does the coaching staff see it the same way.

Unfortunately, gone are the days where you thrown the players into different positions during the game or leading into the game. As much as people like to take the piss out of the non-statistical role, unfortunately structures and roles dictate the modern game.

Players have trained the whole season in certain groups for certain roles. Those are not going to change after round 1. From all reports, Cameron needs another run in the SANFL and Knight could well come into the side for the Showdown. I would play him no doubt.

Mackay's role is different to Knight's so I doubt it will be a like for like swap. Knight will play more around the midfield and in the forward line while Dmac will play through the midfield and half back. Like I said, I very much doubt DMac will be dropped. He was far from our worst and in fact did some very good things in the first half for us. In the modern game where team defense is paramount and is so reliant on the pressure through the midfield, the fact that the Dmac led the team with Sloane in pressure acts indicates to me that he played his role at a reasonable level but because of his past performances, his leash is shorter on this board than anyone's else's not named VB.

 

[NikkiNoo]

And yet he had 13 touches, as a midfielder. Which is what he is selected as. Not a pressure act specialist. Only small forwards who kick goals is that stat relevant.

So why do all our defenders (and in fact almost every defender in the AFL if you asked them) talk about how they need the pressure being put on by the midfielders in order to help them out? So defence need pressure acts applied by midfielders to help them out. Are there any AFL coaches who would be happy with any of their midfielders not applying pressure acts at all?

Do any of you understand the modern game? Or do you conveniently forget those things if they disprove your arguments in relation to Mackay?

 

[TheLeftFist8]

You are joking ......seriously?

Plenty of defenders in SANFL side .....plus Milera played HB for U18 side last championship

Oh I agree with you…it's the match committee rationale I'm unfortunately not joking about.

 

[1990crow]

So why do all our defenders (and in fact almost every defender in the AFL if you asked them) talk about how they need the pressure being put on by the midfielders in order to help them out? So defence need pressure acts applied by midfielders to help them out. Are there any AFL coaches who would be happy with any of their midfielders not applying pressure acts at all?

Do any of you understand the modern game? Or do you conveniently forget those things if they disprove your arguments in relation to Mackay?

There not irrelavant completely, but the lack of impact on the game disposal wise discounts any value from his pressure acts. Whose to say Knight couldnt put out a similar output pressure act wise and yet get 20 touches.

 

[Big Gazoongas]

No I am not. I was at the SANFL game on the weekend, looking forward to seeing Knight and Cameron really pressing their claim as I would prefer them in the team, but they were not quite up to the standard we require. You said you wanted Mackay out for either Knight or Cameron and I'm saying, on what I saw, Cameron is not ready and Knight maybe if you only looked at the half a game he did.

I would put Seedsman in the 6/10 mark as well on the weekend, so why is no one calling for his head? Sloane was bad. Why no one calling for him to be dropped? Crouch and Atkins both thought they were playing SANFL. No calling for them to be dropped. Why do those players get a leeway? Because the group think is that Mackay is bad and can't improve on that 6/10. He has played well above that before but hasn't reached those heights in a while, I agree, but there is the possibility there and I'm willing to wait a little longer than one game in the proper season to hang him out to dry. He isn't John Butcher.

We allow the others more leeway because we trust that they can get to the higher level again, except that Sloane has been poor all pre-season, well below his standard that I expect to see from him. Mackay has performed okay, and done some good things.

I found it interesting that he was equal first (with the poor Sloane) for pressure acts, which implies hardness at the ball carrier, which is something people say he doesn't do well. Those stats seem to say otherwise.

As you have stated Mackay has performed "OK", this is the issue. For a bloke that has played close to 150 games OK shouldn't cut it any more. Players like Mackay and VB need much more output. These guys have been around for ages and should be leading the way. Now that doesn't mean every game they play needs to be outstanding but when was the last time either VB or Mackay had a great game......I for one can't remember!

The other players you have mentioned are relevantly young in terms of games played compared to VB and Mackay and therefore investing time in them should benefit us in the long term.

Sloane, well he did have a bad one but for Sloane that is the exception rather than the rule.

VB and Mackay need to do much much more than being just OK, we can't afford for players of their experience to just be OK.

Simply, they both don't do anywhere near enough.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So why do all our defenders (and in fact almost every defender in the AFL if you asked them) talk about how they need the pressure being put on by the midfielders in order to help them out? So defence need pressure acts applied by midfielders to help them out. Are there any AFL coaches who would be happy with any of their midfielders not applying pressure acts at all?

Do any of you understand the modern game? Or do you conveniently forget those things if they disprove your arguments in relation to Mackay?

Told you would stir up a hornets nest

At least not all the venom is directed at me currently

 

[dogs105]

There not irrelavant completely, but the lack of impact on the game disposal wise discounts any value from his pressure acts. Whose to say Knight couldnt put out a similar output pressure act wise and yet get 20 touches.

I'm sure I read a post recently where someone said they were irrelevant for midfielders....??

 

[MRB37]

So why do all our defenders (and in fact almost every defender in the AFL if you asked them) talk about how they need the pressure being put on by the midfielders in order to help them out? So defence need pressure acts applied by midfielders to help them out. Are there any AFL coaches who would be happy with any of their midfielders not applying pressure acts at all?

Do any of you understand the modern game? Or do you conveniently forget those things if they disprove your arguments in relation to Mackay?

And who's to say his replacement can't do that AND contribute more around the ground? It's the same excuse they used to justify keeping Matty Wright in, despite him being awful every time he actually got the ball. He can't just be included for defensive pressure, he needs to be a two way player.

 

[1990crow]

I'm sure I read a post recently where someone said they were irrelevant for midfielders....??

Psst do you want Mackay playing for us?
Theyre irrelevant if you dont get the ball yourself. As a midfielder you need to work together, and pressure acts should be expected as part of your game.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

So why do all our defenders (and in fact almost every defender in the AFL if you asked them) talk about how they need the pressure being put on by the midfielders in order to help them out? So defence need pressure acts applied by midfielders to help them out. Are there any AFL coaches who would be happy with any of their midfielders not applying pressure acts at all?

Do any of you understand the modern game? Or do you conveniently forget those things if they disprove your arguments in relation to Mackay?

No need to be patronising!

I agree Mackay should be given credit for that area of his game on the weekend (in terms of effort at least, I don't see his pressure as overly effective unfortunately because he physically struggles to impede the opposition properly).

That doesn't mean he's good enough.

Also, I don't think we all need to explain why he isn't in the same boat as Sloane (runs on the board) or our inexperienced players when considering the weekend…or why the John Butcher benchmark isn't really appropriate at AFL level.

 

[1990crow]

And who's to say his replacement can't do that AND contribute more around the ground? It's the same excuse they used to justify keeping Matty Wright in, despite him being awful every time he actually got the ball. He can't just be included for defensive pressure, he needs to be a two way player.

Thankyou. Why is this so hard to understand, and why are we accepting of this standard of player.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Oh I agree with you…it's the match committee rationale I'm unfortunately not joking about.

One game of a season ......have some faith in the club .....Pyke is very much his own man & knows the game style he wants and the personnel to deliver that ......that said it's a work in progress, like all teams (well most)

 

[1970crow]

No I am not. I was at the SANFL game on the weekend, looking forward to seeing Knight and Cameron really pressing their claim as I would prefer them in the team, but they were not quite up to the standard we require. You said you wanted Mackay out for either Knight or Cameron and I'm saying, on what I saw, Cameron is not ready and Knight maybe if you only looked at the half a game he did.

I would put Seedsman in the 6/10 mark as well on the weekend, so why is no one calling for his head? Sloane was bad. Why no one calling for him to be dropped? Crouch and Atkins both thought they were playing SANFL. No calling for them to be dropped. Why do those players get a leeway? Because the group think is that Mackay is bad and can't improve on that 6/10. He has played well above that before but hasn't reached those heights in a while, I agree, but there is the possibility there and I'm willing to wait a little longer than one game in the proper season to hang him out to dry. He isn't John Butcher.

We allow the others more leeway because we trust that they can get to the higher level again, except that Sloane has been poor all pre-season, well below his standard that I expect to see from him. Mackay has performed okay, and done some good things.

I found it interesting that he was equal first (with the poor Sloane) for pressure acts, which implies hardness at the ball carrier, which is something people say he doesn't do well. Those stats seem to say otherwise.

A pressure act doesn't necessarily imply hardness at the ball carrier. Getting a hand to them as they effectively dispose of the ball is a pressure act. Pressure acts can be a sign of getting to a contest but not getting the ball and not quite getting the opponent with the ball. Don't get me wrong, better to pressure than not when not in possession, but there's not necessarily any correlation between pressure acts and hardness at the ball carrier.

And to lump an isolated poor game from Sloane in with Mackay is absurd. Just dumb.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

No need to be patronising!

I agree Mackay should be given credit for that area of his game on the weekend (in terms of effort at least, I don't see his pressure as overly effective unfortunately because he physically struggles to impede the opposition properly).

That doesn't mean he's good enough.

Also, I don't think we all need to explain why he isn't in the same boat as Sloane (runs on the board) or our inexperienced players when considering the weekend…or why the John Butcher benchmark isn't really appropriate at AFL level.

Just plain wrong .....reflects an historical bias, based on truth at the time

He laid 3 very strong tackles on Saturday and was inside a few packs not getting ragdolled as people say .......have a decent look at the replay, it's the truth

Stiffy_18 .....am i wrong here?

 

[dogs105]

Psst do you want Mackay playing for us?
Theyre irrelevant if you dont get the ball yourself. As a midfielder you need to work together, and pressure acts should be expected as part of your game.

A lot of pressure acts is a good thing surely though?

My opinion is that VB needs to be dropped - he needs a few in the reserves.

Mackay and Seedsman both didn't get enough of the ball. Seedsman probably gets another go as he is younger and didn't play an awful game versus Hawthorn in finals last year.

Mackay may or may not be selected. I can see arguments for either - he was okay on the weekend. If he plays again he will hopefully improve and hit some good form. If he doesn't pick up, it will probably be his last game for a bit. If he's dropped it's because he didn't do enough to put his selection beyond doubt.

Milera and McGovern were okay, and I'd like to see them get another go - but if a Riley Knight is fit and ready he offers more right now.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

One game of a season ......have some faith in the club .....Pyke is very much his own man & knows the game style he wants and the personnel to deliver that ......that said it's a work in progress, like all teams (well most)

I hope so…but 'the club' seems to hold sway if the past is anything to go by.

We shall see come Thursday night.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Just plain wrong .....reflects an historical bias, based on truth at the time

He laid 3 very strong tackles on Saturday and was inside a few packs not getting ragdolled as people say .......have a decent look at the replay, it's the truth

And there were many instances of the opposite occurring…fair to say your bias is extremely strong in the other direction.

Though I will admit my historical bias probably does extend at least as far back as the Prelim last year.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

And there were many instances of the opposite occurring…fair to say your bias is extremely strong in the other direction.

Though I will admit my historical bias probably does extend at least as far back as the Prelim last year.

NOT correct

 

[TheLeftFist8]

NOT correct

OK, you too

 

[NikkiNoo]

Sloane, well he did have a bad one but for Sloane that is the exception rather than the rule.

Sloane's exception of the rule has been happening ALL this season throughout the NAB cup as well. Where are the thousands of posts about that? It is the double standard that annoys me and the continual moving of goal posts on people who want to hang shit on one of our players, but won't put the same caveats on other players. A rule for two and a different rule for everyone else.