Discussion Random Discussion (No Politics, Religion) - SHOW CHIN PASSPORT ON ENTRY

[Baldur]

You may have come across media coverage about the new hypersonic technologies being introduced across the world’s various armed forces.
Usually the coverage has been framed in adversarial terms, or else talking about the demise of the aircraft carrier.
That was my limited level of interaction with this subject until I stumbled across a YouTube video explaining hypersonics and then stumbled down that hole.

And even I found it interesting.

So bear with me.

Hypersonic weaponry is not new.
The Russians had a hypersonic missile back in the 60’s.
The American Navy’s rail gun artillery project is hypersonic.
It was just that the weapons weren’t that great and the problems insurmountable to make them better. Simply, supersonic weaponry was more cost effective.

Hypersonic weapons are a hot topic now because of the American layered missile defence system; near range, middle range and long range weapons. This gives the Americans an ability to degrade the effectiveness of their adversary’s missiles.
So that has provided the Russians , and Chinese, with the incentive to invest in systems that make American layered missile defence redundant.
So their focus on hypersonic weapons: missiles that approach their target extremely quickly.

Anyway, some definitions:
Subsonic = less than the speed of sound, less than Mach 1.
Supersonic = greater than Mach 1 but less than Mach 5.
Hypersonic = greater than Mach 5 but less than Mach 10.

Clearly hypersonic weapons have the advantage of speed and they fall into two categories: HGV = Hypersonic Glide Vehicle and HCM = Hypersonic Cruise Missile.

The HGV supersonic equivalent is the ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile).
Typically an ICBM will cover many thousands of kilometres, will be launched into space and will reach an apogee some 1,500kms into space.
However because they rise so high, their target can spot them at 4,000km distance and thus can take defensive measures.
The HGV never rises more than 100km into space, “glides” along at that height at the very edge of the atmosphere, and thus can only be detected by their target at 1,500km distance.
Thus the key attraction of the HGV lies in the delay in detection compounded by the speed it approaches the target. 4,000km detection distance divided by supersonic speed gives a much longer time for defence than 1,500km detection distance divided by hypersonic speed.
So it appears that hypersonic weapons are a winner.

But it’s more nuanced than that.

The HGV operates at speeds where the air surrounding it becomes so hot that it ionises and creates a film of plasma around the vehicle, which cuts off all communication.
This is why returning space vehicles lose communication with ground control.
So when operating at hypersonic speed, the HGV loses all external contact (eg: to GPS satellites) and is in effect flying blind. Relying only on internal navigation systems which will degrade in accuracy over the course of the flight.
This is not an issue if the target is large and stationary, or a nuclear warhead is the payload and accuracy is not critical, but it is if the target is: not large, not stationary (like an aircraft carrier) and if the payload is conventional.
To resolve this problem, the HGV must decelerate to supersonic speed in order to recalibrate itself and relocate the target.
And then it becomes captive to the same problems of the existing supersonic weapons and the American layered defence.

The HCM is the hypersonic version of the existing supersonic cruise missiles, and can be delivered in similar fashion (ship, air or land launched) with ranges of up to 2,000km.
But at hypersonic speed they not only have the communication issues of plasma but two additional problems: heat buildup, particularly on the leading edges, and air pressure (a defined parameter that drives the operating efficiency of the hypersonic engine). The sum of these two additional issues means that there is upper and lower operating limits for HCM’s. And that is between 80,000’ and 120,000’ in height. And between Mach 5 and Mach 7 in speed.
So the HCM must decelerate to supersonic speed in order to recalibrate itself and relocate the target, thereby becoming captive to the problems of supersonic missiles, plus the target knows at what altitude the HCM will be approaching.

The third issue is what is called “The Area of Uncertainty.”
And is of greater relevance in the maritime sphere.
When either HGV or HCM is launched, the target location is known.
For a period of time it then flies blind relying on internal navigation.
It then decelerates to supersonic in order to recalibrate itself and relocate the target.
But the target will have moved.
The Area of Uncertainty is that potential area which might contain the new location of the target, where it might have traveled while HGV/HCM was flying blind.
If the Area of Uncertainty exceeds the target finding capacity of the HGV/HCM, the strike may fail simply by not finding the target.

Now for all of that, the video was not arguing that this technology doesn’t represent an impressive leap. And that hypersonic weapons are not a significant threat.
But rather, that the inherent flaws (the physical limit of the technology) means that it is not quite the game changer represented in the media.

And there will still be a role for aircraft carriers for the foreseeable future.

What really fascinated me, quite obviously as I’m writing about it, is the way an apparent technological breakthrough and scientific marvel is degraded by fundamental, basic science. Whether it be the Laws of Physics or Thermodynamics, whatever.

You can’t do X because of Y.

Yep

There is also the issue that the faster the missile, the more engine and fuel required for a certain warhead size. Basically hypersonic missiles are bigger than supersonic missiles which in turn are larger than subsonic missiles. One can make supersonic missiles sea skimming but the lower the missile flies the more fuel and engine one needs to keep it supersonic.

Sea skimming means that as the missile is flying very close to the sea, it is protected from detection by the curvature of the earth until much closer to the target than a missile on a higher flight path.

So on a given launch platform, say a destroyer, one could have for instance 8 subsonic sea skimming missiles or 4 supersonic missiles or 2 supersonic seaskimming missiles or 2 hypersonic missiles . If you wish to launch as many fast missiles as a fleet with slower missiles you need more or bigger ships.

Than there is the issue of stealth. The smaller the missile, the slower it goes and the lower it flies, the harder it is to detect and the easier it is for stealth technologies to be applied it it. Also faster missiles will have an infared signature will be larger than slower missiles. Furthermore stealth lowers the effective radar cross section. If your stealth tech is capable of say a 90% reduction in radar cross section, a stealth missile 4x bigger is still going to be 4x easier to detect than the smaller stealth missile. There are suggestions that the plasma around a hypersonic missile makes it harder to detect by radar, sounds odd to me but it might be correct.

This means that a faster stealth missile with the same flight profile of a slower stealth missile will be detected further away than the slower missile and therefore even with its faster speed it may well be capable of being engaged by the defences for a greater time than the slower missile. A subsonic sea skimming stealth missile might well be way within the last defence layer before being detected, if it is at all.

But while the slower stealther missile may well be capable of being engaged by the defences for a lesser time. The overall fight time from launch to impact will be much longer for a slower stealther missile. If your fleet has the faster missiles and you launch at the same time your missiles will impact before the opposing missiles, reducing the ability for the opposing fleet to provide mid flight guidance to its missiles and ensuring that your strike will have a chance to impact. The slower missile armed fleet unless they can launch undetected has to assume they will take the opposing fleets missiles strike before their own slower strike hits.

 

[Pardon me]

Yeah it was, lucky for us too because I thought that you would roll us in the NFC Championship if you won that game against the Vikings. You've had the wood over us for a while. Glad to see the back of Brees because of that reason if I'm honest haha.

I liked Philly on and off when I was younger but began to fully support them in 2005 after they lost to the Patriots in the Superbowl. How's that for being a sucker for the perennial underachievers lol. I took two days off work when they won I was in that much of a state haha.

I think NO will turn it around, you've been fairly competitive for the best part of 15 years now. Nothing like how it was for them before that. And the Jazz are just super unlucky to have assembled their best team while in the Jordan era. I don't follow basketball as much as I used to because of the constant trading of superstars, it's hard to follow a team when they are so different year in year out and it's far less even of a competition than other leagues around the world because you kind of know who's going to win the title every year or at least be right up there. So for that reason it's hard to see a team like the Jazz or any other side really contend...but it would be the best thing the NBA ever does if they work out a way to even the playing field.

Jazz are done mate. We had the last 2 years to go for it all and now we'll trade for a rebuild. Im sad Brees has retired because hes been as big an influence as Riewoldt. End of an era type stuff. NO will hit a rebuild phase, the NFL is too cutthroat to stay up for too long, just our luck Brady went to Tampa. Work wouldnt see me for a month if the Saints won a flag...unless it was on the news for "drunken yob goes streaking through Linton st"

 

[George]

Jazz are done mate. We had the last 2 years to go for it all and now we'll trade for a rebuild. Im sad Brees has retired because hes been as big an influence as Riewoldt. End of an era type stuff. NO will hit a rebuild phase, the NFL is too cutthroat to stay up for too long, just our luck Brady went to Tampa. Work wouldnt see me for a month if the Saints won a flag...unless it was on the news for "drunken yob goes streaking through Linton st"

Easily a month for me too haha

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

A preview of whats on my camera

And the result:

 

[sunny3193]

Yep

There is also the issue that the faster the missile, the more engine and fuel required for a certain warhead size. Basically hypersonic missiles are bigger than supersonic missiles which in turn are larger than subsonic missiles. One can make supersonic missiles sea skimming but the lower the missile flies the more fuel and engine one needs to keep it supersonic.

Sea skimming means that as the missile is flying very close to the sea, it is protected from detection by the curvature of the earth until much closer to the target than a missile on a higher flight path.

So on a given launch platform, say a destroyer, one could have for instance 8 subsonic sea skimming missiles or 4 supersonic missiles or 2 supersonic seaskimming missiles or 2 hypersonic missiles . If you wish to launch as many fast missiles as a fleet with slower missiles you need more or bigger ships.

Than there is the issue of stealth. The smaller the missile, the slower it goes and the lower it flies, the harder it is to detect and the easier it is for stealth technologies to be applied it it. Also faster missiles will have an infared signature will be larger than slower missiles. Furthermore stealth lowers the effective radar cross section. If your stealth tech is capable of say a 90% reduction in radar cross section, a stealth missile 4x bigger is still going to be 4x easier to detect than the smaller stealth missile. There are suggestions that the plasma around a hypersonic missile makes it harder to detect by radar, sounds odd to me but it might be correct.

This means that a faster stealth missile with the same flight profile of a slower stealth missile will be detected further away than the slower missile and therefore even with its faster speed it may well be capable of being engaged by the defences for a greater time than the slower missile. A subsonic sea skimming stealth missile might well be way within the last defence layer before being detected, if it is at all.

But while the slower stealther missile may well be capable of being engaged by the defences for a lesser time. The overall fight time from launch to impact will be much longer for a slower stealther missile. If your fleet has the faster missiles and you launch at the same time your missiles will impact before the opposing missiles, reducing the ability for the opposing fleet to provide mid flight guidance to its missiles and ensuring that your strike will have a chance to impact. The slower missile armed fleet unless they can launch undetected has to assume they will take the opposing fleets missiles strike before their own slower strike hits.

Many thanks for the response.
Really interesting reading, so much more complex than the media’s “faster therefore better” click bait.
I raised this issue with my IT guy who, believe it or not, is ex Soviet navy.
He worked in some really interesting areas, though you need to drag the information from him.
His response to the above was to tell me about the Soviet torpedo with a 600mph speed.
Through water.
Which at first glance sounded impossible to me.
He explained the torpedo created an environment between itself and the water, and that’s how they managed to get that speed.
What I didn’t press him on, cause he was fixing my IT, was a better explanation of the technology. I cannot imagine that the torpedo was too effective given the payload implications of creating an environmental sleeve, nor the effective distance operating at that speed.
Still, just shows that for each measure there will always be a counter measure.

 

[Baldur]

Many thanks for the response.
Really interesting reading, so much more complex than the media’s “faster therefore better” click bait.
I raised this issue with my IT guy who, believe it or not, is ex Soviet navy.
He worked in some really interesting areas, though you need to drag the information from him.
His response to the above was to tell me about the Soviet torpedo with a 600mph speed.
Through water.
Which at first glance sounded impossible to me.
He explained the torpedo created an environment between itself and the water, and that’s how they managed to get that speed.
What I didn’t press him on, cause he was fixing my IT, was a better explanation of the technology. I cannot imagine that the torpedo was too effective given the payload implications of creating an environmental sleeve, nor the effective distance operating at that speed.
Still, just shows that for each measure there will always be a counter measure.

The VA-111 Shkval supercavitating torpedo. It makes a gas bubble around the torpedo and the rocket powered torpedo travels in this gas bubble.

VA-111 Shkval - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sunny3193]

The VA-111 Shkval supercavitating torpedo. It makes a gas bubble around the torpedo and the rocket powered torpedo travels in this gas bubble.

VA-111 Shkval - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sounds like the one although the speed is less, that may simply reflect my memory of the conversation though as I was focusing more on my IT issue than the specifics he was rattling on about.
I know he’s ex Soviet navy, not sure if his service extends to the Russian.
But he does come up with some absolute pearls.

 

[Mowman]

Eli Templeton has just collected 47 possessions, taken 13 marks, kicked two goals and tallied up 186 fantasy ranking points in today’s loss to the Blues.

Nice days work, good on him

 

[gringo2011]

Eli Templeton has just collected 47 possessions, taken 13 marks, kicked two goals and tallied up 186 fantasy ranking points in today’s loss to the Blues.

Nice days work, good on him

He's been great this year, pretty unlucky to not get another go even as back up. If we'd listed him he'd probably be in next weeks side.

 

[edgie]

Does anyone else think that car touch screens are getting to large and excessive lately?

Only forever, but I'm old school

Sent from my Nokia 7.2 using Tapatalk

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Can't say I have enjoyed all the lockdowns but one of the positives for me was they gave me plenty of time to research building a curing cabinet for salumi and then plenty of time to build one. I'm absolutely hooked now and the results have been fantastic. I have also used it for dry aging steak. Really wish I had done this years ago!


View attachment 1158866

View attachment 1158851

Wow how goods that.

 

[prophetic1]

Katla Date: 2021 TV series

Stars: Guðrún Ýr Eyfjörð

Plot: One year after the violent eruption of the subglacial volcano Katla, the peace and tranquility in the small town of Vik is dramatically disturbed

From Netflix. sub titled.....Cinematography extraordinary and seamlessly interwoven with effects.
With the backdrop of the real Katla volcano this series was shot at Vik which is a village near the Katla volcano. It's worth the watch ...slowish but worth it without a doubt.


ASIDE FROM AN ENGROSSING STORY AND THE AWE OF THE ACTUAL VOLCANO.....ANYONE WHO HAS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ICELAND OR THE ICELANDIC PEOPLE WILL LOVE THIS ESPECIALLY.

 

[gringo2011]

Katla Date: 2021 TV series

Stars: Guðrún Ýr Eyfjörð

Plot: One year after the violent eruption of the subglacial volcano Katla, the peace and tranquility in the small town of Vik is dramatically disturbed

From Netflix. sub titled.....Cinematography extraordinary and seamlessly interwoven with effects.
With the backdrop of the real Katla volcano this series was shot at Vik which is a village near the Katla volcano. It's worth the watch ...slowish but worth it without a doubt.


ASIDE FROM AN ENGROSSING STORY AND THE AWE OF THE ACTUAL VOLCANO.....ANYONE WHO HAS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ICELAND OR THE ICELANDIC PEOPLE WILL LOVE THIS ESPECIALLY.

I have it on my watch list, I'll give it a go. Ragnarok is pretty good but more teen age demographic as is the Rain another Scandi one.

 

[George]

Looking for a great new series!

The Nevers
Date: 2021 (Written and Created by Joss WHEDON)
Stars: Elizabeth Berrington, Ben Chaplin, Brett Curtis, Anna Devlin
Plot: An epic tale following a gang of Victorian women who find themselves with unusual abilities, relentless enemies, and a mission that might change the world.

The Mosquito Coast

Date: 2021 gripping stuff

Stars: Gabriel Bateman, Melissa George, Logan Polish, Justin Theroux

Plot: An idealist uproots his family and moves them to Latin America.

Intergalactic Think Prisoner (cell Block H)meets Dark Matter /Killjoys ort of thing...Production Values not great but if you give it 3 episodes from the 4th it gets something special developing..young new sometimes cliched but its well worth it as you persist.I ended up loving it ...in a real trashy but fresh kind of way. Cult in the making imo

Date: 2021

Stars: Eleanor Tomlinson, Imogen Daines, Parminder Nagra, Natasha O'Keeffe

Plot: It follows a crew of fierce female convicts who break free and go on the run.

Katla Date: 2021 TV series

Stars: Guðrún Ýr Eyfjörð

Plot: One year after the violent eruption of the subglacial volcano Katla, the peace and tranquility in the small town of Vik is dramatically disturbed

From Netflix. sub titled.....Cinematography extraordinary and seamlessly interwoven with effects.
With the backdrop of the real Katla volcano this series was shot at Vik which is a village near the Katla volcano. It's worth the watch ...slowish but worth it without a doubt.


ASIDE FROM AN ENGROSSING STORY AND THE AWE OF THE ACTUAL VOLCANO.....ANYONE WHO HAS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ICELAND OR THE ICELANDIC PEOPLE WILL LOVE THIS ESPECIALLY.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Only forever, but I'm old school

Sent from my Nokia 7.2 using Tapatalk

If you have an old style car radio, you can reach down, feel the knob, turn the radio on and adjust the volume, all without your eyes leaving the road.
Touch screens are crap for this function.

Yet apparently i can't talk on the phone without being distracted.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I broke my E-Bike, its back at the supplier getting assessed.
After a week of public transport i tried a normal mountain bike today. Not sure that my knees liked it, half an hour longer trip than the e-bike, but still quicker than public transport.

Now i just need Scotty to beam me home after work.

 

[gringo2011]

I broke my E-Bike, its back at the supplier getting assessed.
After a week of public transport i tried a normal mountain bike today. Not sure that my knees liked it, half an hour longer trip than the e-bike, but still quicker than public transport.

Now i just need Scotty to beam me home after work.

See if Scotty can beam you up into Shark-1 and fly you home. Tell him his convict grandfather spoke to you in a dream or something.

 

[edgie]

If you have an old style car radio, you can reach down, feel the knob, turn the radio on and adjust the volume, all without your eyes leaving the road.
Touch screens are crap for this function.

Yet apparently i can't talk on the phone without being distracted.

Good luck finding a radio station without those buttons that you can store them on.

I drive a VY Commodore currently, it's brilliant as the radio seems to talk to the little screen by the speedo, so you can always see what you're doing, you can control the menu and features from it, etc. I've been in other, newer cars where you can only do that from the console, and the different screens don't interact with one another.

I honestly believe much automotive tech has gone backwards. At no point do I ever recall hearing anyone say '*en buttons man, always getting in the way, they don't work'. Screens should work with tactile features, not instead of. Won't be long and you'll probably have to mash a smudgy screen for the lights, blinkers, etc.

 

[edgie]

Mind you also I drive a HQ Holden sometimes, I do like the concept that there is no centre console, it's a real * you passenger car.

Hey, you wanna adjust the a/c or radio? Howbout * you, get back over your side.

(not mine pictured)

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Good luck finding a radio station without those buttons that you can store them on.

I drive a VY Commodore currently, it's brilliant as the radio seems to talk to the little screen by the speedo, so you can always see what you're doing, you can control the menu and features from it, etc. I've been in other, newer cars where you can only do that from the console, and the different screens don't interact with one another.

I honestly believe much automotive tech has gone backwards. At no point do I ever recall hearing anyone say 'fu**en buttons man, always getting in the way, they don't work'. Screens should work with tactile features, not instead of. Won't be long and you'll probably have to mash a smudgy screen for the lights, blinkers, etc.

Cars in the seventies had those little buttons.
My Dad's 78 Falcon had an electronic one. Stored the AM and FM stations separately so you could have 5 or 6 of each.

Touch screens are simply cheaper. Its cheaper to make an LCD array that can be programmed with software, than it is to make buttons.
The car companies love them because they are perceived to be better by a lot of the customers.

Technology is not always better.

See 3:45 below

 

[edgie]

Cars in the seventies had those little buttons.
My Dad's 78 Falcon had an electronic one. Stored the AM and FM stations separately so you could have 5 or 6 of each.

Touch screens are simply cheaper. Its cheaper to make an LCD array that can be programmed with software, than it is to make buttons.
The car companies love them because they are perceived to be better by a lot of the customers.

Technology is not always better.

See 3:45 below

Watched that video already many times. Love it. So tacky. Would love to have a car like that, don't think the thrill of getting in in the morning or whenever, and seeing a dash light up that makes me feel like I'm in some 80s version of the year 2000 would get old. Some aussie cars in the 80s had similar stuff going on.

No issue with touch screens or lcd screens, but I think it's best when they work with buttons, not replace many of them. Cars in to the 2000s still have buttons to save radio stations too and it's great. When I'm in the 2017 Mitusbishi however it's a ******* lucky dip without taking my eyes off the road. Only kinda related, I've got a 2005 Toyota that still has a cassette player!

...

I drive too many cars.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Watched that video already many times. Love it. So tacky. Would love to have a car like that, don't think the thrill of getting in in the morning or whenever, and seeing a dash light up that makes me feel like I'm in some 80s version of the year 2000 would get old. Some aussie cars in the 80s had similar stuff going on.

No issue with touch screens or lcd screens, but I think it's best when they work with buttons, not replace many of them. Cars in to the 2000s still have buttons to save radio stations too and it's great. When I'm in the 2017 Mitusbishi however it's a ******* lucky dip without taking my eyes off the road. Only kinda related, I've got a 2005 Toyota that still has a cassette player!

...

I drive too many cars.

I'm not a fan of the new format of music, just downloading the songs you like.
I always used to buy albums, and you'd hear the singles on the radio, and buy the LP.
If it was a good one , by the time you were sick of the singles you were discovering some of the album tracks. One a good album some of the album tracks were not commercial enough to be a single, but often were far better once they grew on you.

Kids now , its like they only have a copy of "explosive Hits "

 

[edgie]

I'm not a fan of the new format of music, just downloading the songs you like.
I always used to buy albums, and you'd hear the singles on the radio, and buy the LP.
If it was a good one , by the time you were sick of the singles you were discovering some of the album tracks. One a good album some of the album tracks were not commercial enough to be a single, but often were far better once they grew on you.

Kids now , its like they only have a copy of "explosive Hits "

That's a thing that I like about the cassette player. Along with the sound quality being better than I remember, it's like, there's really two options, play and stop. You can try piss farting about with fast forward and rewind, but it's hard to skip a track. You gotta listen start to finish, you're on a musical journey now.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That's a thing that I like about the cassette player. Along with the sound quality being better than I remember, it's like, there's really two options, play and stop. You can try piss farting about with fast forward and rewind, but it's hard to skip a track. You gotta listen start to finish, you're on a musical journey now.

I remember having an Auto-Reverse cassette player.
I'd taped Queen's greatest hits of the Vinyl, but only had a 90minute blank. Normally you could fit an LP on one side of a 90, but the Greatest Hits tape went around 55 minutes. So that meant there was a huge quiet part on the cassette after each side finished.

So one day i get in, and drive off on my way without doing anything about turning music on, i'm just about on a level crossing and i get the weird synth intro from "the game " suddenly coming out full volume. Until I heard Freddy start singing i was like "WTF!!!!" I didn't even realise it was coming from the cassette deck i thought it was from outside the car.



Fond memories of that cassette ,
The following film clip is REAL.

 

[Yawkey way]

Mind you also I drive a HQ Holden sometimes, I do like the concept that there is no centre console, it's a real fu** you passenger car.

Hey, you wanna adjust the a/c or radio? Howbout fu** you, get back over your side.

(not mine pictured)

The HQ was a tank I drove one for year or so, still it was a sports car compared to a mates Chrysler coupe what a land yacht that was.