Autopsy Rd 5 Blues go down to Saints by 3 goals

[CsBlue]

What you mean like the way Murph dragged us over the line last week, or the way Ed gives everything he’s got at every single contest, or the way Simmo still puts his body on the line every time it’s his turn, give me a break so sick of finger pointers on this forum. Without those guys we would be in deep sh*t.

Your missing the point they are not winners and deep down they do not expect to win. These are our leaders.

 

[btdg]

Really interesting and poignant point.

I listened to a podcast with Chris Judd recently (the Howie Games, for anyone interested) and it was really good. He talks about how he views success and what makes a successful person and things of that nature.

Howie asked him if there was a big change in mentality from the Eagles to the Blues and immediately Chris said yep, big difference. At West Coast everyone in the building was driven by the highest of high goals, the premiership. Every year. He assumed all clubs felt that way as that's what the ultimate goal is. But when he got to Carlton he was surprised to see the "pinnacle" in most guys eyes was so much lower than anything Chris ever considered. He said the biggest goal most guys had was to get signed to a 3 year deal or something of that ilk. That was seen as having made "it", no one really thought about a premiership. They talked about it but it was never truly believed. The biggest goal of the group was to be on the list next year and keep earning that money.

To a degree, I don't think that attitude has ever truly left the group. How many guys on the list now really, genuinely, are putting a premiership as the no.1 goal right now? Cripps and Doc definitely seem that way, maybe Murph and Simmo to a degree as they've gotten older. Aside from that, I don't really know if anyone else on the list unequivocally believes that they can realistically reach the top.


I think a very clear example of this was in Bryce Gibbs first year at Adelaide. The year after the grand final they had a relatively poor year going 10-12 or something similar. Gibbs was asked how he felt about the disappointing year and he responded "It wasn't disappointing for me, 10 wins for me is a good year, I'm used to losing much more than that". I'm paraphrasing but that was basically his point. He was seen as one of the leaders of Carlton and that was his attitude, which is indicative of how the greater playing list would've felt.

I feel like the tide is starting to turn with Cripps and Doc at the top, but there's still a ways to go.

To me, this is pretty much it. We've had losing built into the DNA of the club, and you can tell. Two shaky but solid wins, and a chance to be above .500 for the first time since 2013, and we submit a turd of a first half effort. But, you know, 5 day break, and we had a couple of good wins, and tried hard in the second half, and even jagged a couple of junk-time goals.

Carlton in 1990 - there would have been an inquest, and likely a coach fired, if we were 2-3, no matter who was on the list (and we ended up sacking a coach who had been there 18 months after going 11-11). Carlton of 2020 - we're ok with a 6th straight year in the bottom 4; we've resigned ourselves to all hope being in a bunch of teenagers who can't even get a game.

You can seen it in the DNA of our senior players, across the board. And that includes Docherty and Cripps - who were rendered absolutely useless when the game was in contention yesterday. All 3 losses this year, there's zero competitiveness when the game is on the line, and an improved freedom and flexibility when the game is basically over. To be honest, half our players are better when the team is 6 goals down. Liam Jones - looked like the full back of the century and snaffled about 6 straight contested intercept marks... after gifting St Kilda two goals (including the game-sealer) from horrendous turnovers. Weitering - towelled up in the first quarter, then a colussus afterwards. It permeates everything - even Philp, a second gamer, was great in the last 10 minutes, but shaky as anything before that.

The answer isn't the opposite, either. We can't just rip shreds of any bloke who does their best and screws up. The frustration of fans gets directed onto favourite whipping boys - Newnes, Plowman, SPS (this year). It has to be a collective sense of responsibility - the team has to turn around and show up next week regardless. They have to be able to play their best footy and get out of their own heads... and decide collectively to make the culture shift needed. I dunno if Teague is the bloke who can do it, but we are a mile away from competing right now.

 

[Blue since 72]

Only saw the last part of the third quarter and all of the fourth but what I did see was panicky, rushed footy paired with slow around the boundary play.

This was pretty much our last quarter against the Cats however this time we were behind.

Without taking anything away from our opponents efforts I still think we are mentally fragile when challenged, regardless of whether we're leading or losing. The belief Teague speaks of is still not there for mine and for the playing group collectively it is still just a word not a 4 quarter action.

The players just aren't dealing with pressure well (as demonstrated by way of leading early then barely hanging on when challenged or being smashed early and then chasing to fall short).

I cannot recall the last time a Carlton side smashed an opponent.

 

[Aphrodite]

Carlton is their grand final.

I mentioned the exact same in the Preview thread.

 

[Percy2257]

Kane Cornes is on his anti Sam Walsh bandwagon again.Says Carlton made a mistake picking him and it should finally own up to that fact. Discuss

if Walsh hadn’t been taken then who? Rozee?

 

[Stig O'Hara]

I see that ‘Kane Cornes Slams.....’ stuff and I’m in.

Go on, Google it.

Maverick, rebel, ex-footballer, ex-fireman, he’s done it all.

His in-depth essay on the club songs was truly groundbreaking.

Compulsory reading, whatever comes to his magnificent mind.

 

[Jeremias]

Kane Cornes is on his anti Sam Walsh bandwagon again.Says Carlton made a mistake picking him and it should finally own up to that fact. Discuss

if Walsh hadn’t been taken then who? Rozee?

He's an idiot. That's the only thing worthy of discussion IMO.

 

[Aphrodite]

Kane Cornes is on his anti Sam Walsh bandwagon again.Says Carlton made a mistake picking him and it should finally own up to that fact. Discuss

if Walsh hadn’t been taken then who? Rozee?

Anything Kane says is not discussion worthy.

 

[HARKER]

He's an idiot. That's the only thing worthy of discussion IMO.

Why are you being so polite?
Cornes is who he is and subscribes to a 'no skin off my nose' persona.
I don't even take him seriously any more but that's not to say he doesn't have the odd interesting view on things.

Back to the point - Walsh was the right player for us given the list circumstances.
You don't have to be the best player to be the right player and even for his relatively slow start to 2020, this guy is a beauty.

 

[NavyHair101]

Quoting Kane Cornes in support of an argument is like calling your opponent Hitler - you have already lost.

When they made Kane I think it was a challenge to make a flog worse than every other flog combined. They succeeded

 

[Robertio]

Don't mind posters coming in after a loss and giving their two bobs worth but i would like them to come in after a win now and again.

Quoting Kane Cornes in support of an argument is like calling your opponent Hitler - you have already lost.

When they made Kane I think it was a challenge to make a flog worse than every other flog combined. They succeeded

This could be a spur on for young Sammy, i predict he'll star from now on.

 

[Blue Pulse]

My 2c worth:

• Whenever we play St Kilda or NM, they rough us up and play hard attacking football, why aren't we prepared for this, every time, it is really frustrating.
• Cripps, time to get ugly. If he is being scragged at the centre bounces and not getting rewarded, he needs to go to one of the umpires off the ball and say, " take care of the scragging or I will". If the umpire doesn't do anything he has to rough up his opponent, legally or not, he has to fly the flag, otherwise he will cop this every week.
• SPS, is not a backman. End of story.
• Simmo, wtf lets him kick out, seriously, everyone can read his kick outs, except for our players.
• Gibbo was an onball champion in the VFL, if we are not going to play him there, I dont see the point of him playing fwd, he has no tricks as a forward.
• Levi was a witches hat, why couldn't we throw him back and throw Jones, yes Jones, into the ruck. He's physical, quick and strong and may have just thrown a spanner in the works.
• We needed physicality around the ball, Kennedy by all reports has been playing good football and is finally fit, if JSOS isn't there, give this guy a crack. He knows how to use his body around the ball and would provide protection for Cripps. See Richmond game 2 years ago before he did his ankle.
• It was a really insipid performance and the players accepted it as did the coaches.
• If you are running at a 50/50 contest, you have to hit either the ball or your opponent, you can't miss both as we seem to do too often.

 

[agro]

My 2c

Simmo, wtf lets him kick out, seriously, everyone can read his kick outs, except for our players.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Lets be honest, we know we're not a finals side... and regardless of how well Teague has patched the cracks when we win we never smash anyone (except Gold Coast when they tended to turn bad in the latter end of seasons). In this day and age it's probably un-PC to say this, but seriously our mens team is soft!!! We have zero mongrel!! Not one player on our list has that d-head factor, we're just too nice!!

• Cripps - gun, but a lovely babyfaced boy;
• Docherty - gun, well brought up lad;
• Murphy - nice well brought up lad;
• Casboult - hulk of a man, devout religious boy;
• Walsh - see Murphy;
• Pittonet - hulk, hawks let him go because he's missing that bit of agro they love
• Weits - gun, nice kid, never seen him crash and bash hard
• Simmo - evergreen... takes a s-load of hits, never dishes them out... officially now the biggest loser in the AFL
• Eddie - best small forward ever... way too nice a guy.
• Dow - nice kid, scared to take a hit
• LOB - see Dow
• SPS - bull rider my ars3!!!! he'd be scared to mount a house cat at the moment.
• Martin - Silky, scared to tackle goes in for tackle-less bumps.
• Kreuzer - Lenny/Herman-munster personified

Closest players we have with some dcik to them are probably McGov and Williamson, but they're on the edge of the spectrum.

Seriously not since Waite (who was not much of a mongrel either) have we seen a player really ever get reported (except for that joke of a report made on Murphy by some corrupt umpiring last night).

Teams that have been successful in recent history have had a great blend of tough players, skillful players and a sprinkle of knob jockey on their teams, I could go through lists such as Geelong, Pies, GWS, Richmond, West Coast, Hawks to point out examples, but you know who they are.

Western Bulldogs won a premiership because for 3/4 of a season they found the inner mongrel... then reverted back to being Mr Niceguys most likely because their biggest d-head hasn't done much since.

Even though * are knobs in general, they're scared knobs as they've become a bit gun shy since the Hird era.

I make jokes about SOS never recruiting a player with tatts... our list is like a group of year 12 private students, cleanly shaven, shirts tucked in, tie in place... we seriously have no players with a rough edge to them.

If I was Teague this year would just be a year of developing the youngsters into being able to take a hit, dish out a legitimate hard hit and beg the recruiters to bring in some hard edged players. Send the list to Chuck Norris camp or something. Bite the bullet and trade a Dow/LOB/SPS for some middly skilled hard nuts! We should of gone for a Zac Jones type instead of chasing a nice guy who wanted to come home to be with family/gf.

Our Ladies side has had some success because they're tough and filled with chutzpah!

We need more mongrel, but we really don't need more d*ckheads.
You don't need to be a d*ckhead to play with a hard edge. Watching last night, whilst you were wishing we had a laurence Angwin type character out there, I was just lamenting our lack of intent and yet another pisspoor start.

Cripps and Docherty are hard, tough competitors, they don't need tatt's to have the will to win. Your comment on Jack Martin is way off the mark too.

There are definitely question marks though, we could do with a 19 year old Joel Selwood (preferably a non-ducking version).

 

[Sinjin Smith]

Setterfield is an interesting one. Every game I watch him in he shows these flashes of footy smarts and nice moves however he cant really stamp himself on the game. For the time being he stays in however I want to see improvement from him.

 

[LanceRomance]

Lots of troll liking, I will repay the favour when the time comes.

 

[Aphrodite]

Lots of troll liking, I will repay the favour when the time comes.

Name them.

 

[ParapMarkets]

Kane Cornes is on his anti Sam Walsh bandwagon again.Says Carlton made a mistake picking him and it should finally own up to that fact. Discuss

if Walsh hadn’t been taken then who? Rozee?

It's not really worth discussing, that's what he wants - to get under the skin of Carlton fans on this topic.
Walsh is a beauty and every single club would have taken him if they had pick 1 (with the exception of GWS who said they would take Rankine).

 

[Michael Jezz]

Massive fail last night
Teague has improved our game plan by moving the ball on and emphasising kicking through the coridoor but our dynamics are appalling. The part of football that happens above the shoulders is poor: competitiveness, tackling, hardness, assertivness are all missing. This a reflection of weak and soft players and administators. It starts from a president who struggles to assert himself in public and works all the way down through half the playing group

 

[HARKER]

It's not really worth discussing, that's what he wants - to get under the skin of Carlton fans on this topic.
Walsh is a beauty and every single club would have taken him if they had pick 1 (with the exception of GWS who said they would take Rankine).

I don't recall ever seeing so much debate/discussion as to who a team should have taken in the second year of being on a list.

It was a great draft year in '18, but the 'he's better than he is' and 'they should have taken him instead' is so very constant.
Maybe it has something to do with juts how good a draft year it was, but even at this early stage, we're seeing nothing like it this year.

I guess we have several more years of it ahead before any dust settles on this one........oh well.

 

[myblueroan]

My 2c worth:

• Whenever we play St Kilda or NM, they rough us up and play hard attacking football, why aren't we prepared for this, every time, it is really frustrating.
• Cripps, time to get ugly. If he is being scragged at the centre bounces and not getting rewarded, he needs to go to one of the umpires off the ball and say, " take care of the scragging or I will". If the umpire doesn't do anything he has to rough up his opponent, legally or not, he has to fly the flag, otherwise he will cop this every week.
• SPS, is not a backman. End of story.
• Simmo, wtf lets him kick out, seriously, everyone can read his kick outs, except for our players.
• Gibbo was an onball champion in the VFL, if we are not going to play him there, I dont see the point of him playing fwd, he has no tricks as a forward.
• Levi was a witches hat, why couldn't we throw him back and throw Jones, yes Jones, into the ruck. He's physical, quick and strong and may have just thrown a spanner in the works.
• We needed physicality around the ball, Kennedy by all reports has been playing good football and is finally fit, if JSOS isn't there, give this guy a crack. He knows how to use his body around the ball and would provide protection for Cripps. See Richmond game 2 years ago before he did his ankle.
• It was a really insipid performance and the players accepted it as did the coaches.
• If you are running at a 50/50 contest, you have to hit either the ball or your opponent, you can't miss both as we seem to do too often.

I agree that SPS needs to be moved.
Also tjat our club needs to speak up about Crippa if not Crippa himself.
Also agree about Kennedy.

 

[Bluesome]

Have we all calmed down a bit after last night?

Still frustrating, but hopefully after a good nights sleep everyone realises you can't pot everyone and everything after one bad game...if it becomes a trend, then we can start asking questions...

And last night wasn't part of the 'trend' of not showing up in the first quarter...that 'trend' involves us playing 3 good quarters of footy (or at least 2 and a half)...we played 1 alright quarter last night but was just unfortunately a bad night all round...except for Jack Martin...what a gun!

 

[Arr0w]

Yes Ratts told us what he was doing but why is it Teagues fault that they were beaten up by their taggers?

These are the two best and most experienced players at our club, it's their job to beat their opponent and not wait for the coach to rescue them.

Tell me what we would have all thought had Teague started both out of position to try to negate Ratts strategy?

And who, in the team, is more suited to monster a tagger than Cripps?

Because Teague either reacted too late or inappropriately to combat the situation

First time I could say Teague was soundly outcoached, but better to learn early rather than in a critical year

 

[chelseacarlton]

We were never in it, but a few subtle changes had us within arms length.
Let’s not forget our coach is a bloke with less than a season under his belt, he knows where he wants to go and I for one, support him and the decisions he makes.
I love his control, some dislike his lack of emotion in the box, but I see it as an elite protest against the melting, phone smashing, arm flailing, pissing and moaning antics his peers display.
There will be delays and express moments on our journey on the Teague Train, but never doubt that the guy steering the puffing billy, knows what he’s doing!

 

[LanceRomance]

Name them.

Not going to dob then in.

They just won their grand final so I guess it's OK they celebrate a little.