Autopsy 2023 Rd 9 Blues tease but go down again

[Coops93]

Sacking another coach now pretty much ensures that you will find it near on impossible to attract a decent coach the next time you're looking for one. Who wants to coach a club where you are likely to be turfed out at the first sign of problems, a club where you are constantly coaching for survival rather than being able to develop?

The football department should be constantly reviewing where everything is at and if they think there are weaknesses in the coaching then make moves to support the coach/es in the areas where they identify weaknesses. Clubs like Geelong and Richmond were under enormous pressure to sack coaches, Thompson and Hardwick, before making the changes necessary to help them become premiership coaches.


I still say that if 3 successive coaches can't get one particular group of players to follow them then maybe the problem may not lie solely with the coaches.

Correct but those reviews showed those coaches weren't the issue. If they did show they were the issue, they'd have been sacked. You don't just keep a coach on for the sake of it.

Which of our last few coaches deserved to stay on? Malthouse, Bolton or Teague really showed they should be the long term coach? There's sacking coaches quickly but I'd suggest they all were the right decision. Malthouse destroyed the club, Bolton was a good transition/rebuild coach but showed he couldn't take us the next step, Teague got the job on a whirlwind of fan/past club figures support but then later showed he wasn't much more than the classic "interim coach sugar hit" and we fell into that trap.

Of our past few sacked coaches the only really aggressive one I'd say was Ratten. He probably didn't deserve it at that time. But since then I don't think any coach has shown we made a mistake by moving on. Even Ratts to be honest.


It's easy to say look at these stable clubs they don't move on coaches... well of course they don't, because they're good coaches.

Any coach with ambition would leap at the Carlton job. There wouldn't be many better provided you're good at your job.

 

[Blue and Blue]

I have analysed what made me so angry abnout this year so far. I have finally worked it out.

We are doing the small things badly, the stuff that professional organisations drill into their players.
Stupid snaps around the corner for set shots, missing easy kicks, and taking the worst option half the time.

The players obviously love Vossy, they are playing for him. We just need to be better at drilling in the basics and we should improve.

I must say that it is infuriating that an AFL team can be so unprofessional. They need to fix it asap.

EG, Harry Mackay saying he doesn't have time to work on kicking for goal. It needs to be fixed.

How can a professional organisation get to a stage where a bloke like Harry (and others) doesn't have a proper routine when it comes to shooting for goal?

Its what I have said more than once about them being like schoolboys. All having a lark and a laugh. Of course they mean well and have been told no doubt over and over to enjoy their football. I think (and it goes right back to Ratten days and is embedded in the collective), that message is misinterpreted. It's not the way a proffesional sports person does it.

 

[Pixelshooter]

It absolutely shites me no end when a side like Adelaide, that was seen as slow and boring the last couple of years, has zoomed past us and are becoming the arrogant tossers they've always been...and we're back to being a bloody laughing stock and the butt of jokes. Well and truly over it.

I don't and never thought when we appointed him, that Voss was senior coach material. But now that we have him, we'd look even more of a basket case if we dumped him.

The assistants and head of footy roles need a major shakeup...with some smart appointments with senior experience...or at the very least people that are seen as super smart tactically. We don't have ANY of that right now and we'll get nowhere just doing the same old stuff and expecting a different result.

And I have to say I'm over our players doing the holding the jumper thing after kicking a goal as though playing for Carlton is their life...show it by a 4 quarter effort and looking devastated after a loss...this chummy stuff after the game, although it shows they're good sports, just gives off a rank vibe to the club supporters...at least that's what I think.

I'm rapidly losing any faith in us being able to turn this around. Has all the stench of another wasted year.

 

[sweetchoif]

Correct but those reviews showed those coaches weren't the issue. If they did show they were the issue, they'd have been sacked. You don't just keep a coach on for the sake of it.

Which of our last few coaches deserved to stay on? Malthouse, Bolton or Teague really showed they should be the long term coach? There's sacking coaches quickly but I'd suggest they all were the right decision. Malthouse destroyed the club, Bolton was a good transition/rebuild coach but showed he couldn't take us the next step, Teague got the job on a whirlwind of fan/past club figures support but then later showed he wasn't much more than the classic "interim coach sugar hit" and we fell into that trap.

Of our past few sacked coaches the only really aggressive one I'd say was Ratten. He probably didn't deserve it at that time. But since then I don't think any coach has shown we made a mistake by moving on. Even Ratts to be honest.


It's easy to say look at these stable clubs they don't move on coaches... well of course they don't, because they're good coaches.

Any coach with ambition would leap at the Carlton job. There wouldn't be many better provided you're good at your job.

If that is genuinely correct, then the Board that has appointed each of those coaches are utterly incompetent. its essentially the Board saying "we had to sack those coaches because they werent the right person for the job....despite the fact that we were the ones that appointed those coaches. Appointed and sacked coaches at an average retention rate of 2.5 years per coach and a cost of probably $1-2M per each sacking". Dont get me wrong, im a fan of Sayers and current board, but the unaccountability of previous boards is disgusting.

 

[FRUMPY]

I was down the pub with mates so was only fleetingly watching it along with the brisbane v essendon game. Was copping it big time when we were 1 goal at half time but they were trying to get me all G'd up when we hit the front. I knew better and said it wont last long.

I did expect the lead to last more than 10 secs though

 

[jimsta10]

Chief probably watched the replay and punch the restart button by accident...

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

I can't stand the way we're playing at the moment, but sacking Voss isn't the answer.
In addition to it becoming the place where coaches go to die (or get another pay check after they have already died), it just tells the playing group that if they suck then the coach for this season will take the blame and they're ok.

Voss needs a strong 2IC to take over the game plan, during the week and on game day.
Who that is, I don't know. Leppa is the obvious choice: has proven to be a great strategist and possibly one of a small number of people Voss would listen to.
No sure why he'd want the job though, going from the Pies who are flying to a basket case. Can't just wave $$$ at it any more.

 

[gbatman]

These guys have been carrying the side the whole year without the others stepping up to share the workload. I suspect they are spent. If you look at the teams that are playing well they have a young midfield ( except Geelong). We desperately need to get everyone back on the same page and contributing. An injection of some speed and foot skills wouldn’t go astray either.

All top sides have a core of stars who stand out, they are the match winners, they carry the bulk of the load and when they are playing well they lift the rest of the team up around them. We have not got that at the moment because our core of star players are down and that drags the whole team down. Yes the finger needs to be pointed at our core group for the lack of output and they manner in which they are playing and the standards they are driving.

Richmond in their hay day don't win flags with Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lynch, Cotchin, Houli etc playing crap footy like our top tier are. Carlton at present don't win games against decent sides with Cripps, Walsh, Saad, Weitering, McKay, Curnow etc playing poor to mediocre football. Same goes for all teams.

We can bash our bottom and mid tier players all we like, those sort of players drop off when the ones above them drop off. If your top tier isn't firing, the tiers below them don't fire at all.

This is where we are at.

 

[jj1978]

I can't stand the way we're playing at the moment, but sacking Voss isn't the answer.
In addition to it becoming the place where coaches go to die (or get another pay check after they have already died), it just tells the playing group that if they suck then the coach for this season will take the blame and they're ok.

Voss needs a strong 2IC to take over the game plan, during the week and on game day.
Who that is, I don't know. Leppa is the obvious choice: has proven to be a great strategist and possibly one of a small number of people Voss would listen to.
No sure why he'd want the job though, going from the Pies who are flying to a basket case. Can't just wave $$$ at it any more.

Bit hesitant on Leppa.. but them being ex teammates might help.. unless Voss is grudging on his Lions replacement still.

 

[Coops93]

All top sides have a core of stars who stand out, they are the match winners, they carry the bulk of the load and when they are playing well they lift the rest of the team up around them. We have not got that at the moment because our core of star players are down and that drags the whole team down. Yes the finger needs to be pointed at our core group for the lack of output and they manner in which they are playing and the standards they are driving.

Richmond in their hay day don't win flags with Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lynch, Cotchin, Houli etc playing crap footy like our top tier are. Carlton at present don't win games against decent sides with Cripps, Walsh, Saad, Weitering, McKay, Curnow etc playing poor to mediocre football. Same goes for all teams.

We can bash our bottom and mid tier players all we like, those sort of players drop off when the ones above them drop off. If your top tier isn't firing, the tiers below them don't fire at all.

This is where we are at.

Good post. It's why I always sort of cringe at basic posts like "I'd rather a champion team instead of a team of champions". I mean, what does that even mean? All champion teams have champion players that take them over the line in big games, the concept of it being either or is a misnomer.

Richmond, like you said, but Geelong were long pushed over the top by stars like Ablett, Selwood, Dangerfield, Scarlett etc..

Hawthorn always had Mitchell, Hodge, Buddy, Roughead stand up and win games

Brisbane way back had Voss, Brown, Aker, Lynch, Black star in big games.

We depend on Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Walsh, Weiters, Saad to do it, but right now it's just Walsh and Curnow carrying the load. McKay has forgotten which end of the football is the kicking one and Cripps his just woefully down. Not to mention Weiters looks completely shot mentally (I wonder how much the off field stuff has knocked him about) and teams are really sitting on Saad.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

. Clubs like Geelong and Richmond were under enormous pressure to sack coaches, Thompson and Hardwick, before making the changes necessary to help them become premiership coaches.


I still say that if 3 successive coaches can't get one particular group of players to follow them then maybe the problem may not lie solely with the coaches.

The Thompson and Hardwick success examples are tiny slices of the overall history of AFL coaching, there's been far more cases of dysfunctional coaches being replaced, resulting in immediate team improvement.

Lets hope the football dept. and above are seeking the players honest assessments of what is going wrong on the field.

 

[gbatman]

Good post. It's why I always sort of cringe at basic posts like "I'd rather a champion team instead of a team of champions". I mean, what does that even mean? All champion teams have champion players that take them over the line in big games, the concept of it being either or is a misnomer.

Richmond, like you said, but Geelong were long pushed over the top by stars like Ablett, Selwood, Dangerfield, Scarlett etc..

Hawthorn always had Mitchell, Hodge, Buddy, Roughead stand up and win games

Brisbane way back had Voss, Brown, Aker, Lynch, Black star in big games.

We depend on Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Walsh, Weiters, Saad to do it, but right now it's just Walsh and Curnow carrying the load. McKay has forgotten which end of the football is the kicking one and Cripps his just woefully down. Not to mention Weiters looks completely shot mentally (I wonder how much the off field stuff has knocked him about) and teams are really sitting on Saad.

100% I've never seen a top side where the player quality is even across the board. Top sides are made up by a core of champions who play a very high level of footy. When they do they team wins, they bring the tiers below them up and everybody lifts. We don't have that this year. The players who have let us down the most are our top tier players.

Our top tier, sometimes it's brilliant and when it is we rarely lose. Sometimes it's terrible. End of the day when our top tier is up and about it brings everyone else up a level and we perform well but that's not happening.

All those gun sides you mentioned are nothing without those players and those players are never equalled by the tier of players below them but they do have the ability when they are firing to bring those players into the game and make them lift.

Even our 1995 team, as good as it was, does not make the 8 with Ratten, Williams, Bradley, Silvagni, Kernahan, Koutoufides, Sexton etc playing poorly. Because when they do it drags everyone down.

We have depth, we have a good bottom end, our mid tier players are pretty good, our top tier has been toothless this season.

 

[gab213]

The Thompson and Hardwick success examples are tiny slices of the overall history of AFL coaching, there's been far more cases of dysfunctional coaches being replaced, resulting in immediate team improvement.

Lets hope the football dept. and above are seeking the players honest assessments of what is going wrong on the field.

I don't trust the current group of players to make an assessment on anything much, they have shown no leadership in anything when it's been needed.

You're assuming the coach is responsible for all the problems, I don't know whether he's 'dysfunctional' or not but neither do you. A lot of assumptions are being made imo. I suggest that rather than honing in on the coach, look at everyone involved including the players.

 

[gab213]

100% I've never seen a top side where the player quality is even across the board. Top sides are made up by a core of champions who play a very high level of footy. When they do they team wins, they bring the tiers below them up and everybody lifts. We don't have that this year. The players who have let us down the most are our top tier players.

Our top tier, sometimes it's brilliant and when it is we rarely lose. Sometimes it's terrible. End of the day when our top tier is up and about it brings everyone else up a level and we perform well but that's not happening.

All those gun sides you mentioned are nothing without those players and those players are never equalled by the tier of players below them but they do have the ability when they are firing to bring those players into the game and make them lift.

Even our 1995 team, as good as it was, does not make the 8 with Ratten, Williams, Bradley, Silvagni, Kernahan, Koutoufides, Sexton etc playing poorly. Because when they do it drags everyone down.

We have depth, we have a good bottom end, our mid tier players are pretty good, our top tier has been toothless this season.

All of the players you mentioned from 95 had leadership qualities, name 7 of our current team who show genuine leadership. We are bereft of it, everyone can talk up a good game but when it comes to delivering when things get tough, it's crickets. I agree with you, if it's not coming from the top tier players, then forget it.

 

[myblueroan]

And who decides if the coach is good enough, as opposed to other explanations for failures.
I think the 'gameplan' is fine.
Our players are hopeless kicking for goal is the real issue. Fix that we win most games.

True!
But what happened?
Hazza was fine 2 years ago.
Why such a bad slump?

Sacking another coach now pretty much ensures that you will find it near on impossible to attract a decent coach the next time you're looking for one. Who wants to coach a club where you are likely to be turfed out at the first sign of problems, a club where you are constantly coaching for survival rather than being able to develop?

The football department should be constantly reviewing where everythign is at and if they think there are weaknesses in the coaching then make moves to support the coach/es in the areas where they identify weaknesses. Clubs like Geelong and Richmond were under enormous pressure to sack coaches, Thompson and Hardwick, before making the changes necessary to help them become premiership coaches.


I still say that if 3 successive coaches can't get one particular group of players to follow them then maybe the problem may not lie solely with the coaches.

Not solely. No.

What a mess.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I don't trust the current group of players to make an assessment on anything much, they have shown no leadership in anything when it's been needed.

You're assuming the coach is responsible for all the problems, I don't know whether he's 'dysfunctional' or not but neither do you. A lot of assumptions are being made imo. I suggest that rather than honing in on the coach, look at everyone involved including the players.

I never said that Voss is dysfunctional, but I could assume that it is possible.
Assumptions are what every single bigfooty post is based on, including your own regarding the quality of our list.

I'm quite happy for Voss to turn Carlton's downwards spiraling season around, but I hope questions are being asked.

 

[myblueroan]

I don't trust the current group of players to make an assessment on anything much, they have shown no leadership in anything when it's been needed.

You're assuming the coach is responsible for all the problems, I don't know whether he's 'dysfunctional' or not but neither do you. A lot of assumptions are being made imo. I suggest that rather than honing in on the coach, look at everyone involved including the players.

Assumptions are made both ways.
It has ever been thus Gab!.
Camp Coach
Camp Players.
Chicken or egg?
Oh, a chicken omlette?
Alright.
But you hear explayer commentary and they are perplexed, and they seem to lean toward coach.
I get what you're saying.
I know another camp, the 3rd Camp that blames beyond either.
A horrible culture that still pervades.
Tough to add that to our omelette though.

 

[Beyond Blue]

True!
But what happened?
Hazza was fine 2 years ago.
Why suchmakes such a bad slump

Not solely. No.

What a mess.

In 2021 Harry kicked a lot goals when there were smaller or no crowds due to Covid.

He was ok last year but down on his 2021 output albeit not as much as last year when the crowds returned.

Either way I think I’ve seen enough of him to conclude he can’t handle the pressure of kicking set shots for goal.

It is probably among the top 5 biggest factors holding us back currently and needs to addressed by H and the club.

I hold onto the hood that Tomahawk was a bad kick for goal in his earlier years so it’s something that can improve.

 

[gab213]

I never said that Voss is dysfunctional, but I could assume that it is possible.
Assumptions are what every single bigfooty post is based on, including your own regarding the quality of our list.

I'm quite happy for Voss to turn Carlton's downwards spiraling season around, but I hope questions are being asked.

I absolutely hope that questions are asked of him, but also of others. I just get the feeling there's more than coaching problems involved and all sacking the coach does is to paper over the cracks. The coach gets sacked, players lift and play out of their skins for a while then regress again, it's very frustrating.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

He's carrying an injury...just rest him.

I blame the club not Cripps

We played Dogs without Treloar and Lions without Zorko. Did it stop them? No they have a system and other talented mids stepped up.

Last 2 rounds last year were amongst our best games with really compromised midfields.

If he’s injured don’t play him, almost hope he doesn’t front this week just to see who steps up in our team. He has NIL or few tackles and has no influence/disposals when injured.

 

[FRUMPY]

In 2021 Harry kicked a lot goals when there were smaller or no crowds due to Covid.

He was ok last year but down on his 2021 output albeit not as much as last year when the crowds returned.

Either way I think I’ve seen enough of him to conclude he can’t handle the pressure of kicking set shots for goal.

It is probably among the top 5 biggest factors holding us back currently and needs to addressed by H and the club.

I hold onto the hood that Tomahawk was a bad kick for goal in his earlier years so it’s something that can improve.

Biggest change to 2021 was the fact there was no Curnow - he was the main and only focal point so he got alot more of the ball sent his way (and not fighting over it)

But last year he still got 40 odd goals - this year he is barely get shots on goal and shanking them. GOt the yips this year but nothing to do with crowds or anything like that.

 

[gab213]

Assumptions are made both ways.
It has ever been thus Gab!.
Camp Coach
Camp Players.
Chicken or egg?
Oh, a chicken omlette?
Alright.
But you hear explayer commentary and they are perplexed, and they seem to lean toward coach.
I get what you're saying.
I know another camp, the 3rd Camp that blames beyond either.
A horrible culture that still pervades.
Tough to add that to our omelette though.

It's terribly frustrating, I sometimes wonder whether anything has actually changed. A lot of window dressing but I'm not sure that anything of substance has changed.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

All top sides have a core of stars who stand out, they are the match winners, they carry the bulk of the load and when they are playing well they lift the rest of the team up around them. We have not got that at the moment because our core of star players are down and that drags the whole team down. Yes the finger needs to be pointed at our core group for the lack of output and they manner in which they are playing and the standards they are driving.

Richmond in their hay day don't win flags with Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lynch, Cotchin, Houli etc playing crap footy like our top tier are. Carlton at present don't win games against decent sides with Cripps, Walsh, Saad, Weitering, McKay, Curnow etc playing poor to mediocre football. Same goes for all teams.

We can bash our bottom and mid tier players all we like, those sort of players drop off when the ones above them drop off. If your top tier isn't firing, the tiers below them don't fire at all.

This is where we are at.

Would Richmond have won any of those flags without Dusty's moments of brilliance?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

In 2021 Harry kicked a lot goals when there were smaller or no crowds due to Covid.

He was ok last year but down on his 2021 output albeit not as much as last year when the crowds returned.

Either way I think I’ve seen enough of him to conclude he can’t handle the pressure of kicking set shots for goal.

It is probably among the top 5 biggest factors holding us back currently and needs to addressed by H and the club.

I hold onto the hood that Tomahawk was a bad kick for goal in his earlier years so it’s something that can improve.

Harry is in his 8th year on the senior list. Might pay to remember that he didn't go into his draft year as a dominant key forward. For memory he was a bit of tall utility, forced up forward because of injury. Had a reasonably small sample size to go off.

 

[Coops93]

Biggest change to 2021 was the fact there was no Curnow - he was the main and only focal point so he got alot more of the ball sent his way (and not fighting over it)

But last year he still got 40 odd goals - this year he is barely get shots on goal and shanking them. GOt the yips this year but nothing to do with crowds or anything like that.

I think he has been affected by Charlie playing in the forwardline. I think H thrived knowing he was the no.1 dog in the forward line and he commanded the 50 like he knew it. After Charlies return and has returned to his match-breaking best Harry is clearly no.2 now and I don't think he's quite figured out how to play that role. He's definitely not the same commanding presence in the air inside 50. He is when he gets up to the wings and he commands his space but inside 50 he's nowhere near as much of a presence.