Autopsy 2023 Rd 16 Blues don't give a ruck but thrash Hawks anyway

[Garters]

Going back to rnd 5 when the rot set in proper against Adelaide. 11 Games, the 3 wins by 10 goals+ against 8 losses. Weird form line. Next 2 weeks really interesting.
Will send a seismic fracture through the cattle v coaching posting fraternity by end of rnd 18!

 

[GeoCoulthard]

Why are we now trying to draw comparisons between Ed and Dow? Dow will never be a patch on what Ed has been for this club over the past 10-12 years. Dow has been on our list for 7 years now and done very little, there is no comparison.

This is quite a ridiculous argument saying we cannot compare Ed and Dow. Ed is a player that I love and he has been a wonderful servant of the club but anyone watching him today can see that he is but a shadow of the player he was. Age has caught up with him. In most of the games he has played this year he would have been very definitely among our least effective players. Dow is still only 23 years of age (so we must have loved him a lot to have drafted him at age 16 if he has been on the list for 7 years!), and from all reports has been one of our best players in the VFL all year and when he has come on as the sub. has performed really well. He seems to have most of the VFL watchers saying he has significantly improved in the areas that he was previously seen to be deficient in. Comparing them today has me saying that Dow is the better player. This does not mean that he is better than Ed at his best, it just means that he is better than Ed is this year. I have no doubt that Dow will play a lot more AFL football if he can keep up the effort he has been giving this year - and it must be hard to keep playing well when you keep getting overlooked. I am just not sure that the AFL football that he will play will be with CFC given how he is being treated. He may never be a best & fairest winner but he could be a good player that contributes every week.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

I dont care whether Ed is in the team or not at this stage but I still have respect for his loyal service to our club since 2011. From all accounts he's a positive influence on others at the club. If he is selected then there's obviously reasons behind it that neither of us will ever be privy to. As long as they pick a winning team I don't care.

I care about winning games and we won, that's all I care about really, regardless of individual players.

So, you'd reward loyalty over form, fitness for purpose or the long term development of emerging players?

Terrific.

 

[My Hat]

The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

...

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Can't agree on that one. I don't want to see Young anywhere near the forward line unless & until he's had a solid block of training in that position. 5 behinds to half time suggests the backline found a way to cope with Young in the mix.

JSOS knows how to lead, how to create space for others, how to avoid getting in the way of teammates, etc, but I don't know if I can say the same for Young. The forwards operate as a collective just as much as the backs do. Now that they're finally starting to click, the last thing I want is to mess things up by throwing someone in who's spent no time training with the rest of the forward group.

It may be true that JSOS would be a better defender than Young at present, but if so that's due to a combination of JSOS's footy IQ and Young being out of form. I don't think the equation works in reverse.

 

[gab213]

This is quite a ridiculous argument saying we cannot compare Ed and Dow. Ed is a player that I love and he has been a wonderful servant of the club but anyone watching him today can see that he is but a shadow of the player he was. Age has caught up with him. In most of the games he has played this year he would have been very definitely among our least effective players. Dow is still only 23 years of age (so we must have loved him a lot to have drafted him at age 16 if he has been on the list for 7 years!), and from all reports has been one of our best players in the VFL all year and when he has come on as the sub. has performed really well. He seems to have most of the VFL watchers saying he has significantly improved in the areas that he was previously seen to be deficient in. Comparing them today has me saying that Dow is the better player. This does not mean that he is better than Ed at his best, it just means that he is better than Ed is this year. I have no doubt that Dow will play a lot more AFL football if he can keep up the effort he has been giving this year - and it must be hard to keep playing well when you keep getting overlooked. I am just not sure that the AFL football that he will play will be with CFC given how he is being treated. He may never be a best & fairest winner but he could be a good player that contributes every week.

We drafted Dow at trhe end of 2017, at the end of this season it's 7 years that he's been at the club, spanning 6 football seasons. I mean this isn't a theory, it's fact.

I wasn't the one who started throwing Ed's name in relation to Dow by te way. To me, it's pointless anyway as they don't play the same role. My question to you would be which midfielder do we drop from the team to bring Dow in? Dow will face this problem whichever club he goes to.

 

[gab213]

So, you'd reward loyalty over form, fitness for purpose or the long term development of emerging players?

Terrific.

That is not what I said at all, stop being mischievous and deliberately misleading.

Which 'emerging' player has had his long term development stifled by Ed's selection on Sunday, by the way?

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

Why is this question relevant to the discussion?

You say there is no comparison....correct

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

That is not what I said at all, stop being mischievous and deliberately misleading.

Which 'emerging' player has had his long term development stifled by Ed's selection on Sunday, by the way?

Binns was in superb form, a like for like with Cotts and far, far more deserving of a spot.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

If Collingwood lost Daicos x 2, Noble, Quaynor, De Goey, Hill and Elliott, would McRae suddenly be a poor coach?

They were winning with a worse injury list than us for a while. Missing players hasn't made a difference to them yet. Including games with no talls, no defenders etc. Theyve had some position concentrated injuries and have had average players like ginnivan step in and perform well thanks to system confidence etc

 

[gab213]

Binns was in superb form, a like for like with Cotts and far, far more deserving of a spot.

Maybe they don't think that Binns is ready yet, I wouldn't know, but not selecting him right now is hardly stifling his development. He's a first year player, I wouldn't be worried if we got another pre-season into him and debuted him next year, if we are thinking long term.

I'd rather they take longer with the young players rather than just throw them into the seniors before they are ready.

 

[gab213]

You say there is no comparison....correct

Dow has won a B&F?, I'm confused to what you're referring to, whether Ed has won a B&F holds no relevance to the discussion we were having.

 

[gbatman]

Can't agree on that one. I don't want to see Young anywhere near the forward line unless & until he's had a solid block of training in that position. 5 behinds to half time suggests the backline found a way to cope with Young in the mix.

JSOS knows how to lead, how to create space for others, how to avoid getting in the way of teammates, etc, but I don't know if I can say the same for Young. The forwards operate as a collective just as much as the backs do. Now that they're finally starting to click, the last thing I want is to mess things up by throwing someone in who's spent no time training with the rest of the forward group.

It may be true that JSOS would be a better defender than Young at present, but if so that's due to a combination of JSOS's footy IQ and Young being out of form. I don't think the equation works in reverse.

The backing delt with it because opposition was weak and our midfield cut off supply. Won't be the same against a good side.

Silvagni Kicked just 1 goal with a dominant midfield a big score and 70 odd point win. Took just 1 overhead mark. Like his effort but hardly anything to get excited about. To beat good teams we are going to need two talls deep and one high up for the dump kick. Didn't need it against Hawthorn.

Silvagni is no star but he's a competent footballer. Young I could trust as someone to get on the end of dump kicks and just go for the ball but not in defence. Silvagni I trust in defence. But he's hopeless at taking the dump kick.

I agree, I'd like to see Young in that role in the VFL for a few weeks but we don't have the time if we need it now.

 

[charred_fate]

Good to see the grunt work back and even better to see it combined with outside/attacking play. The outside game requires a lot of improvement though.

It's not easy to achieve with some of the players we have out there, but it would go a long way if each of the players considered their limitations ... The most simple, obvious and important being to handball to the better users whenever possible. Too often Cripps, Acres (especially Acres), Ed, Young, (Pitto/TDK when out there) and a couple of others take the kick themselves when there are better kicks running past and it really bloody hurts us. Even Walsh and Doc would be better served at times. Cinc, Cerra, Saad, Cunners, Martin, Boyd, Gov, Kennedy and a couple of others should be utilised by the aforementioned almost every time the option is there.

The play from Charlie to Cunners to Cerra for a goal shows what happens when the best kicks have the ball. Loved that passage - absolute A+ quality, the three of them.

I won't say that seeing the players trying is "all we ask" bc that should absolutely be the bare minimum... I want to see us close to our best and there is still a lot of room for improvement.

I feel like our VFL team/performances have brought renewed energy to the senior team - the style of play changed in the VFL before the AFL imo.

I was reluctant for the Cerra trade because I thought we would be better served getting a different type in the midfield mix, but you'd do that trade every time. He's one of the most underrated in the comp now, imo .. and if it was a horse race, he'd win the BnF by the length of the straight.

My man Cunners looks about 75% to me - in terms of touch. At 75% his skill level is still top bracket. Fumbled a couple of balls in tight, which is very uncharacteristic and will pass with more fitness and match time. Just a bit rusty - he acknowledged as much after the GC game. Absolutely loving watching him out there. I can hear the crowd starting to recognise just what a gun he can be. I still reckon he has the potential to be best at Club, but would need to demand the ball more from teammates I think. Voss looked very happy with him on the ground after the game.

Was nice to JSOS with his kicking working again. Hard to make sense of how poor his kicking has been this year - goes to show how much of it is mental I suppose.

Cripps looked like a new man. Begs the question if we'd be better off resting him regularly throughout the season to keep him fresh.

We still panicked when they got a couple of goals, which was frustrating, but it was then good to see them regain composure.

Kemp, Boyd and Cinc are very under-appreciated imo. There is a tendency to highlight mistakes by lesser-known players (eg, Kemp) and overlook star players making howlers (eg, Weiters). They're providing a lot in various ways.

I wouldn't mind seeing Mots given another run now with better quality players around him in the F50 (for either Ed or Owies). Reckon it's worth the gamble.

Fog was good but still produced the biggest 'wtf' moment of the match for mine - we all knew he couldn't make the distance... Why, oh why, did he then think he could make the distance??

The next couple of weeks will give a better of indication of where we're at. We've definitely improved and I would say the last two have easily been our best two performances of the season, even allowing for the weak opposition, but just how much remains to be seen.

It's the intent that is the difference - the intent to pressure, to put their bodies in, to back themselves and take the game on. Frustrating that it's taken this long, but if we can account for Freo this week, it's going to be a massive turnout against Port the following round. The remainder of this season has the potential to be a watershed moment. So often, in the last 20 years, we've been let down when those moments have presented. In terms of the list, we're very close. I'd love to win in a really positive manner this week.

All a bit random, but with that, I'm out. It's goodnight from me and it's goodnight from him.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Tis deeply satisfying to see a half forward line doing the right things right!

Early days but Cunningham and Martin making a BIG difference in the forward half. Will be interesting to see how they go against better opponents. 5 goals 1 between them handy.

 

[gbatman]

Did the coach deliberately injure Williams, Philp, Cottrell, Martin, Cuningham, Boyd and C.Durdin?

Were Kemp and Cincotta 100% ready to go, or did they need further development before becoming more regular senior players? That is a quarter of the list with above average speed that simply haven't been consistently available.

Our best side is quick enough, but we just haven't had access to a lot of the faster players. Our depth in the speed department is weak and will no doubt be a priority in the offseason. We wouldn't have picked Ed as a replacement for Cottrell if we had Durdin or Philp to come in and play half forward.

Other guys with a bit more speed have been played but found wanting in other areas - Fisher, O'Brien and Honey won't figure prominently in future but the coach at least gave them opportunities.

If Collingwood lost Daicos x 2, Noble, Quaynor, De Goey, Hill and Elliott, would McRae suddenly be a poor coach?

Cincotta, Dow and Kemp were running around for weeks I the VFL playing top football while we persisted with slow and old, we went with slow and old Ed Curnow over young, fit and in form Dow. Consistently dumb team selections have been happening all season and still are.

The Dow thing is a s**t show and there are very very few who will disagree.

We can't blame injuries, not going to cop that, players have been available. We made the same rubbish team selections this week. Not going to make excuses for poor coaching, we've all seen how long it's taken us to change our game plan, just another mistake.

 

[gbatman]

I keep saying the Pies are playing the AFL equivalent of Bazzball.. entertaining, score a minute, win early. Eventually will get found out by a more well rounded team well coached in a final. Brisbane and Port have the ability to change gears and will not be pushed around or over awed by them come finals. I predict another Prelim close loss for the Pies and fatter time is catching up on them too.

Nab, they are better than that. They are 13 and 2. Have excellent connection between all 3 areas. Mids apply elite pressure, defenders rebound and intercept due to pressure. Forwards are just OK but get elite supply from fast ball movement. They are the real deal. They are ahead because they were the ones to make the gamy style change first. Other sides are catching up like Port. Think it comes down to availability for the top few sides come finals.

 

[thylacine60]

Wouldn't want this guy watching over your kids then.

I deadset fell for it.....

 

[CJMB]

I think if Dow is running around every weekend getting 30+ possessions kicking goals etc it would suggest his tank is pretty damn good and at very worst competent.

Yeah, competent for an inside mid.

I wouldn’t be picking any of Cripps, Kennedy, or Hewett to play that HHF/wing-cover role either, because they’d also be run off their feet.

He’s slowed down a bit, but at least he can still knock a few kms through the legs.

Dow in the team to play as an inside mid is one discussion, and probably a valid one, then it comes down to the midfield balance, ie do we play 2 or 3 pure inside mids.

But Dow to play that HHF/wing-cover role would be a bad move, for both Dow and for the team.

Personally I’d like to see Cotts resume the role next week, or even Binns debut there. But whoever it is, they need to have the tools to be physically able to play that role.

 

[My Hat]

The backing delt with it because opposition was weak and our midfield cut off supply. Won't be the same against a good side.

Silvagni Kicked just 1 goal with a dominant midfield a big score and 70 odd point win. Took just 1 overhead mark. Like his effort but hardly anything to get excited about. To beat good teams we are going to need two talls deep and one high up for the dump kick. Didn't need it against Hawthorn.

Silvagni is no star but he's a competent footballer. Young I could trust as someone to get on the end of dump kicks and just go for the ball but not in defence. Silvagni I trust in defence. But he's hopeless at taking the dump kick.

I agree, I'd like to see Young in that role in the VFL for a few weeks but we don't have the time if we need it now.

It's not just about stats, it's about system. JSOS understands the forward system and works with it even if he's not racking up the stats himself.

We've seen an example this year of a forward who doesn't have that system awareness in TDK. We've seen him spoil marks that he should have left for Harry or Charlie, getting into spaces he shouldn't be in, etc. Young has spent less time training forward, has less athletic ability, and is out of touch generally. No thanks.

If we need to go with a Young / SOS ruck combo again, then the least bad option is to just leave Young in the ruck role for as much of his time on ground as we possibly can. Don't send him forward or back, except when that's what the active ruck would do anyway.

 

[thylacine60]

Class is the keyword. It will always trump stats.
Don't care how many poseessions a player has. Its what happens from and after the posession that matters.

bit like your posts, b&b - not the highest stats, but look at the class......

 

[Blue and Blue]

More ass than class is a well known saying which I resemble.....

 

[katmanblue]

Saw this one up close at the ground. Jack looked pretty tender for a few mins after but soldiered on. It was huge!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Could you imagine Fisher in the same position? Short steps, then throw an arm out.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[katmanblue]

It is also about playing with intensity. Fogarty would be slower than Motlop or Durdin, but is switched on and going at 100% all the time. Despite not having any real tricks has been ferocious and clean with the ball. Surprised how well he has been going given he was only solid without staring in the VFL.

What? Surely Motlop is the slowest of the lot.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Osc1]

CC, CBA
Cripps 2, 20
Cerra 1, 19
Walsh 0, 16
Kennedy 4, 15
Young 0, 15
Jsos 1, 13
Cuners 0, 6
Hewett 1, 5
Fog 1, 3
Doc 1, 0 (Would have been from turnover)

You will need to watch the game again to see who was part of the exiting chains

Thanks mate. How many did Dow attend ?

 

[F_therest]

The changes I noticed at the game were:

• it’s hard to exit our forward line now. That is due to Martin (who just shuts down space beautifully. Don’t care about any of his stats, he is a weapon), due to Cuners, Fog, and due to Harry McKay who is the best pressuring big man since NickNat. Incredible athlete. He is something to behold. The limp efforts of Motlop, Fisher and Durdin are no longer hurting. Pray pray pray that Cuners and Martin stay fit.
• they are trying to be unpredictable. And it’s working. We now have plenty of guys who can kick well and it’s showing. Get the ball in the hands of Cerra, mcg, Saad, Cuners, boyd, Martin, Charlie (his field kicking is ridiculous) and good things happen. The switch. Go short. Go long. Cut inside. Go wide. The plan is ‘be unpredictable’. Absolutely love it.

Agree but harsh on Durdin...i have many recollections of him busting a gut and sprinting to apply defensive pressure. Replaces Fog down the line.