Preview Round 10: Essendon vs Greater Western Sydney, Carrara, Friday 07/08/2020 @ 7:50 PM

[DERO]

Is Ambrose still alive?

 

[andleanback]

Greene would take Hurley to the cleaners. Ridley possibly, but I think he is too tall/inexperienced for essentially the best small forward in the comp. Saad is easily our best small/medium sized defender and I would trust him to do a great job.

I would trust him for he job but he plays different to a small, he plays tall going up for contested pack marks. Doesn’t suit saads skillset. Play saad on daniels or Langdon.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Hurley the sensible match up for Greene IMO, but with Finlayson, Cameron and Himmelberg he'll be needed elsewhere.

 

[andleanback]

Hurley the sensible match up for Greene IMO, but with Finlayson, Cameron and Himmelberg he'll be needed elsewhere.

Bzt- finlayson
Francis(give him a job get him to show some heart) - cameron
Ridley - himmelberg

 

[eth-dog]

Hurley has to go to Cameron. Put Saad on Greene, held him to one goal in both games last year.

 

[ghostdog]

I would leave BZT in for the rest of the year now and play Hooker forward when he comes back, there is every chance Hooker is done by the end of the year and BZT needs the games under his belt.

Frankly, this should have been the MO since the beginning of the year.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Bzt- finlayson
Francis(give him a job get him to show some heart) - cameron
Ridley - himmelberg

Personally I'm over the Francis in the back line scenario. We're taking a physical beast and turning him into a dour defender. What a waste. Give him the Stringer role, if Townsend's performance is the benchmark of acceptable standard up forward, he's more than capable of reaching that every week.

 

[andleanback]

Personally I'm over the Francis in the back line scenario. We're taking a physical beast and turning him into a dour defender. What a waste. Give him the Stringer role, if Townsend's performance is the benchmark of acceptable standard up forward, he's more than capable of reaching that every week.

He’s lost in the forward line and he has no desire to play there. Exactly like Carlisle, could’ve made it as a forward but didn’t want to play there so never gave 100% effort all the time.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

He’s lost in the forward line and he has no desire to play there. Exactly like Carlisle, could’ve made it as a forward but didn’t want to play there so never gave 100% effort all the time.

Lost is relative. I'd argue he is less lost up there than any other forward we had on the weekend bar Tippa.

 

[blitzer]

I don't think Ridley would be the craziest choice to play on Greene. Greene is bloody good in the air. But otherwise Saad is the man. I hope they don't put Redman on him. It could get real ugly and we had enough of that last night.

Hopefully we bring back Langford, Hibberd and maybe even Begley. Drop some players like Cahill, Ham and Towsend and try to rebalance the side.
Nothing against Cahill and Ham either as I think both will be players but Cahill is in his first year and Ham is having a rough patch of form.

 

[andleanback]

Lost is relative. I'd argue he is less lost up there than any other forward we had on the weekend bar Tippa.

Have you watched him play a game forward live? It’s not great. I’d rather give him 5 minute stints in the guts.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Have you watched him play a game forward live? It’s not great. I’d rather give him 5 minute stints in the guts.

Of course but the last time we trialled him there he was depressed. I saw him do some special things forward of the centre in the VFL. We just need to put up with the s**t for a while. Tim English gave up nothing but garbage performances for 30 games straight... if we want the results we have to persist. We are the worst club in the competition for development because we can't stomach growing pains.

 

[Blood Bomber]

Sorry to be the pessimist but cannot see us winning any of the next 3 games

 

[Albertross]

Sorry to be the pessimist but cannot see us winning any of the next 3 games

Pessimist or realist?

 

[ghostdog]

Sorry to be the pessimist but cannot see us winning any of the next 3 games

I reckon we'll finish with somewhere between Pick 6 and Pick 10.

 

[Seb78]

We can bring in, or drop whoever we like but unfortunately the reality is we just don’t have the cattle to mix it with the top 8 sides of the comp. Soooo many soft ***** and poorly skilled players it’s not funny. Yeh sure, we’ll win a few games here and there and some thrillers as well but it will be a long time until we reach the top ranks again.... and consistently remain there!
This decade would be nice but I’m not holding my breath....

 

[OsteitisPubis22]

Sorry to be the pessimist but cannot see us winning any of the next 3 games

Not pessimistic at all, we just don’t have the cattle atm.

What is gonna be acceptable though? Surely we can get something out of the next 3 games whilst not expecting to win?


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[oldandslow]

We’ve seen it before and we will see it again. We don’t have a great forward line, our mids can’t complete with the serious sides and we have too many bit part players who can’t lock down in the backline - Gleeson, Redman, Francis to name a few. We have blokes that don’t want to be playing for us - Fantasia, Daniher, McKenna (arguably). We have automatic selections like Zaharakis week in week out who do not deserve a game. Near enough is good enough at this club. I’d rather we set the reset button than continue to languish between 7-12 for the next 5-10 years. We are new laughing stock of the AFL. Our injuries are just ridiculous. I said at the start of the year Daniher wouldn’t play a game this year- looks like I’m right. Heppell continually injured. Can’t find positives other than Ridley Saad Draper McGrath currently. Need 22 contributors each Week.

 

[MiguelM]

Just wish we would try and run the ball through the corridoor.

Slow kicking up the line (with very few players capable of taking a contested mark) will not win any games.

 

[andleanback]

Of course but the last time we trialled him there he was depressed. I saw him do some special things forward of the centre in the VFL. We just need to put up with the sh*t for a while. Tim English gave up nothing but garbage performances for 30 games straight... if we want the results we have to persist. We are the worst club in the competition for development because we can't stomach growing pains.

He wasn’t depressed last year, and he played forward in a few games (against freo at marvel was one). Playing forward in the vfl is a lot easier and doesn’t require a tank or much work rate compared to playing that role at AFL. Jordan lisle kicks bags for port Melbourne and would be statless if he got an afl game. To get a kick on afl standard defenders and be an effective forward, you need a tank to work up and down the ground. I think Francis needs to be honest with himself about how hard he works on and off the field, because for how much talent he possesses the output doesn’t stand up.

 

[Albertross]

We can bring in, or drop whoever we like but unfortunately the reality is we just don’t have the cattle to mix it with the top 8 sides of the comp. Soooo many soft ***** and poorly skilled players it’s not funny. Yeh sure, we’ll win a few games here and there and some thrillers as well but it will be a long time until we reach the top ranks again.... and consistently remain there!
This decade would be nice but I’m not holding my breath....

I agree, we don't have enough quality players or even solid B graders to go to the next level. How many match winners do we have, players that take control and have the ability to turn a game? Joey? Stringer? Shiel??

We also don't seem to develop players as well as some other teams. How many times do we have to watch another team go past us in the space of a season whilst we still plod along hoping to get enough wins to slot into 8th?

If we bottom out and get high draft picks though, I have no confidence that the young talent we pick up will take us any further than what we achieve now, a middle of the table side full of inconsistency. Rinse and repeat.

The thing I find hard to accept is our collective lack of effort, consistently. Not just from our less experienced players, but more so from some of our leaders, the players who have been in the system for a number of years but when things get tough, they stop leading by example. ZM is a perfect example of this.

At the end of the day, talent will only get you so far. Look at St Kilda, are they really that much better than us talent wise. They seem better than us because of their desire, a willingness to compete and be successful. I put that down to the system they have in place, they have bought into what Ratten is selling.

Apologies for the long winded rant.

 

[Albertross]

Fr

He wasn’t depressed last year, and he played forward in a few games (against freo at marvel was one). Playing forward in the vfl is a lot easier and doesn’t require a tank or much work rate compared to playing that role at AFL. Jordan lisle kicks bags for port Melbourne and would be statless if he got an afl game. To get a kick on afl standard defenders and be an effective forward, you need a tank to work up and down the ground. I think Francis needs to be honest with himself about how hard he works on and off the field, because for how much talent he possesses the output doesn’t stand up.

Francis isn't alone though, you could point the finger at more than a few player, some of them that should be leaders and setting the standard week in week out.

This isn't all the players fault I don't believe though. The club/coach sets the standard of what is acceptable and what is not.

I'm old enough to remember Sheeds first year, a record of 1 and 5 and threatened to cone out of retirement and pull the boots on. I remember his response after the 83 Grand Final loss. He drove the club to not accept mediocrity, to strive to be successful.

Who is inspiring the players to go to that next level now??? Crickets!!!

 

[Red Black and Blue]

He wasn’t depressed last year, and he played forward in a few games (against freo at marvel was one). Playing forward in the vfl is a lot easier and doesn’t require a tank or much work rate compared to playing that role at AFL. Jordan lisle kicks bags for port Melbourne and would be statless if he got an afl game. To get a kick on afl standard defenders and be an effective forward, you need a tank to work up and down the ground. I think Francis needs to be honest with himself about how hard he works on and off the field, because for how much talent he possesses the output doesn’t stand up.

His numbers forward last year were still alright. Needed to hit the scoreboard a lot more but was averaging about 14 touches and 6-7 marks. Townsend is throwing up about 7 and 2. If he could get 2 goals every three weeks and 7 marks a game I’d take it.

This week we had 16 touches and 7 marks from Stewart, Townsend, TBC and Cahill combined...

 

[Seb78]

I agree, we don't have enough quality players or even solid B graders to go to the next level. How many match winners do we have, players that take control and have the ability to turn a game? Joey? Stringer? Shiel??

We also don't seem to develop players as well as some other teams. How many times do we have to watch another team go past us in the space of a season whilst we still plod along hoping to get enough wins to slot into 8th?

If we bottom out and get high draft picks though, I have no confidence that the young talent we pick up will take us any further than what we achieve now, a middle of the table side full of inconsistency. Rinse and repeat.

The thing I find hard to accept is our collective lack of effort, consistently. Not just from our less experienced players, but more so from some of our leaders, the players who have been in the system for a number of years but when things get tough, they stop leading by example. ZM is a perfect example of this.

At the end of the day, talent will only get you so far. Look at St Kilda, are they really that much better than us talent wise. They seem better than us because of their desire, a willingness to compete and be successful. I put that down to the system they have in place, they have bought into what Ratten is selling.

Apologies for the long winded rant.

Agree re Merrett as well, I've said my piece about that before, not gonna go there again.

 

[CBombers17]

Where do we think the game plan is at after 18 months of defensive learnings?

This is where i find selection and club culture dubious. If we are implementing the 'system' effectively then either our system is bad (coaches) or we have player's who aren't doing what is coached or expected. Are we ruthlessly demanding players follow instructions or are we allowing players to fall short week in week out? If this is a team first, embrace the new way scenario, then I'd expect a few senior players to have been dropped by now for not leading the way or implementing the new plan well enough. Yet the same old players get dropped (or rarely selected) - and it's very rarely 'senior' players (not one of whom are even close to being a club great). Have the 'senior' players all embraced the plan and we just aren't seeing it yet - or are they being lazy *en rock stars and never getting dropped?

If the coaches are serious about playing to a certain structure and instructions yet not selecting players who will follow them then thats an issue. Surely someone like Clarke is going to do what they want and yet he can't get a game. So this tells me they must actually be happy with someone like Zakas contribution to our team defense? Or Merretts? Or Cahill's (over Clarke or Begely)? Do we actually drop people for s**t performance in this area? How does a new small forward keep getting games despite not doing any observable defensive job? 3 tackles in 3 games of AFL as a small forward does not happen in a ruthless side. So why not drop him? Tell him to tackle more or play reserves till he can. Instead we get post goal Lambadas.

We've had 12-18 months of Truck's defensive master plan. Surely we should be seeing some consistency by now? People talk about injuries and throw up missing injured legends but I'm not talking about winning i am talking about seeing us play a new successful and sustainable game plan.

Should the expectation be it takes 2,3 or 4 years to get players to do what the coaches want? How long did it take at Richmond?

There's no softer entry into AFL coaching than Rutten is getting. Hopefully he makes the most of it. Hard to tell on output so far - unless grinding out tight wins against broken and rebuilding sides is a good indicator I'm missing.