Opinion Round 20 changes vs. GWS

[magnus34]

You have to give credit to Mark Harvey - he was in the hot seat at the commencement of our rebuilding program. We ended up with a number of young players to develop, but with a combination of young players plus aging players, we couldn't keep enough players fit and available. Whenever a club is struggling, the call goes out to replace the coach. The fact is RTB was able to walk into a quality developing list, add some experience and strategic nous, and produce a competitive outfit. RTB is to a large extent reaping the benefit of Mark Harvey's toil.

Indeed, credit where credit is due, BUT Harvey COULD NOT have got the team to take the next step which is what Ross has done.

 

[dominguez]

You aren't seriously saying Harvey or any other senior coach doesn't have a say in who the club recruits or delists are you because that would be very stupid since he has to coach them and get the best out of them and put a team onto the paddock to win games .

Recruiting and delisting are two very different things.

The senior coach would certainly have the final call on who gets cut at the end of the season. Other than Grant Thomas it's unusual for the head coach to make contractual decisions though, so lets say Michael Johnson was offered more money to go elsewhere it wouldn't be up to Ross to decide if we match the offer.

In terms of recruiting experienced players - Bond would go to Ross and say player X is out of contract, what do you think? With someone like Buddy the answer is obvious but Lyon wouldn't be chatting with player managers or making financial offers. And he would play little part in trade week, senior coaches have been known to go overseas during trade week because making trades isn't their job.

In regards to the recruiting of players from the under 18's - Sure the senior coach would interview the kids expected to go early in the draft but he'd have little input in our batting order on draft day. The Hill v Rich decision is a good example, I'd be very surprised if Mark Harvey would prefer a skinny outside wingman who could take 3 years in the gym to have an impact to a readymade onballer who uses the ball well.

The late picks the senior coach may never have met because there's so many players in the mix. Jack Hannath was training with Melbourne and said he didn't know Fremantle were interested because they hadn't spoken to him prior to the PSD.

Like Bomber Thompson has said through this drugs saga, the senior coach can't run everything. But what the good clubs have is quality people filling every role and you back them in to get the job done.

The senior coach along with his assistants would be telling the recruiters what sort of players the need from season to season and I agree with you he wouldn't be viewing of YOU TUBE or travelling the country looking as aspiring young footballers that why you hire recruiters to do the talent scouting for you.

The football department (including the head coach) would meet from time to time and discuss what the list needed going forward but there would be little focus on individual players currently outside the AFL.

The fact that we keep going for skinny flankers with our first pick shows that the clubs focus is long term where as a senior coach would prefer a ready made player with that first pick. The plan pre-draft would be to get some talls but Lloyd makes the call on draft day (because the cobblers do the cobbling) and has decided Pitt, Simpson, etc were the best player when our first pick rolled round.

BUT he would certainly be looking at what the scouts found and interviewing them in the off season before the draft and then letting the RECUITERS and the club know who he thought would fit into his game plan and with the team structures he wanted for the next season.

How many players would be in the mix at our last pick? The club would go in with their own phantom draft then cross names out as they're selected so there would be 30-40 possibilities once it gets to pick 70 because every clubs list would be very different. That's a lot of latte's if Ross is going to have a coffee with each player pre-draft.

To back my argument up I would refer to the Hird story in the Sunday times and the roll Sheedy played in the recruitment of Hird as a kid and how he insisted that Essendon keep him on their list as he developed into the footballer that we all know.
There are many similar stories about other coaches and player selection and non selections as the case may be including Neashams huge mistake in passing up the chance draft Mcloud as an 18 year old .

I'm not sure when Hird was drafted but I'd say it was before Fremantle entered the competition? In that time the AFL has gone from a semi professional sport to a massive business with each club employing hundreds of people.

In 2001 Cameron Schwab arrived at Fremantle, hired his buddies, and 2 people effectively ran every aspect of the club. It's highly unlikely that would happen in 2013, and if it did that club wouldn't win many games.

 

[dominguez]

You have to give credit to Mark Harvey - he was in the hot seat at the commencement of our rebuilding program. We ended up with a number of young players to develop, but with a combination of young players plus aging players, we couldn't keep enough players fit and available. Whenever a club is struggling, the call goes out to replace the coach. The fact is RTB was able to walk into a quality developing list, add some experience and strategic nous, and produce a competitive outfit. RTB is to a large extent reaping the benefit of Mark Harvey's toil.

Clancee Pearce, Michael Walters and Ryan Crowley were all on the way out under Harvey. Mayne couldn't kick. Johnson was snorting coke off milk crates in laneways and playing crap footy. Dawson came with Ross. Take those 6 players out and we probably would have got a different result against Carlton.

 

[Wigarus]

Lots of words....

Hrmmm, interesting take. Looking forward to couldhavebeens rebuttal

 

[Seppo]

Clancee Pearce, Michael Walters and Ryan Crowley were all on the way out under Harvey. Mayne couldn't kick. Johnson was snorting coke off milk crates in laneways and playing crap footy. Dawson came with Ross. Take those 6 players out and we probably would have got a different result against Carlton.

Dawson was coming across before we moved to grab Ross. It was highlighted recently in a radio interview with one of the coaches/assistants.

 

[The Anchorite]

As if Harves could spell Mzungu

We should ask BT. Is it Mzungai or Mzunguy?

 

[clogged]

Clancee Pearce, Michael Walters and Ryan Crowley were all on the way out under Harvey. Mayne couldn't kick. Johnson was snorting coke off milk crates in laneways and playing crap footy. Dawson came with Ross. Take those 6 players out and we probably would have got a different result against Carlton.

Your last sentence is self evident, but I suppose you are implying that Fremantle wouldn't have beaten Carlton. Is that really a given, considering all that has changed in the AFL since 2011? That was Fremantle's first win against a Mick Malthouse coached side since 2008, and one of Lyon's few wins against Malthouse. For all we know Ken Hinkley could be Fremantle's coach this year and Lyon would be coaching Carlton.

Sliding doors a bit - Lower, Broughton, McPhee might all still be at Fremantle this year, list would have an entirely different composition.

Not sure what Harvey or Lyon have to do with Johnson's offield habits, bit wrong to bring that up I reckon.

 

[theGav56]

To back my argument up I would refer to the Hird story in the Sunday times and the roll Sheedy played in the recruitment of Hird as a kid and how he insisted that Essendon keep him on their list as he developed into the footballer that we all know.
There are many similar stories about other coaches and player selection and non selections as the case may be including Neashams huge mistake in passing up the chance draft Mcloud as an 18 year old .

The Neesham story is exactly the argument for why the coach is not the #1 guy in terms of recruitment. Should never have been his role to build the list, but that is part of our history. St Kilda blames Lyon for the current state of their list too, and perhaps it is partly true. But the bigger reason is quite simply that their recruitment and development has been poor. Our off-field structures should help ensure we do not have the same problem.

You badly need to work on your spelling of names of people in the afl.

 

[Wizard]

So guys, changes v GWS.

RTB v Harvey in its own thread if required.

 

[theGav56]

So guys, changes v GWS.

RTB v Harvey in its own thread if required.

Pavlich certain to come in, but nobody goes out for a "rest" with him coming in, instead someone loses their spot, and may never get it back. With both him and MacPharlin coming back before the finals it should make some of our talls a bit nervous. Very difficult to see who will be dropped from the 22, and if I was MJ or Dawson or Mayne I would not be wanting to be "rested". Realistically we cannot simply add another 2 talls to our existing team without getting too tall.

To me it is bringing up an old Freo chestnut;

Should MacPharlin/MJ go forward?

As for the midfield it is a different story. Great opportunity coming up to rest any of Mundy, Barlow or Fyfe, with the chance to also build some potentially critical insurance by giving Michie a game or 2.

 

[Wizard]

Pavlich certain to come in, but nobody goes out for a "rest" with him coming in, instead someone loses their spot, and may never get it back. With both him and MacPharlin coming back before the finals it should make some of our talls a bit nervous. Very difficult to see who will be dropped from the 22, and if I was MJ or Dawson or Mayne I would not be wanting to be "rested". Realistically we cannot simply add another 2 talls to our existing team without getting too tall.

To me it is bringing up an old Freo chestnut;

Should MacPharlin/MJ go forward?

As for the midfield it is a different story. Great opportunity coming up to rest any of Mundy, Barlow or Fyfe, with the chance to also build some potentially critical insurance by giving Michie a game or 2.

Not a chance, we wont get the luxury against teams like Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, Collingwood, Essendon where we can play just the one recognised key defender. Lets be honest, MJ isn't really a key defender as such.
The way things were working earlier in the season with Luke Mac and Dawson taking the two bigs and MJ playing the sweeper was the best scenario for us IMO.

 

[manpurple]

Did people miss the little one liner as to why Tab's was dropped for Carltank. I believe it essentially came down to "wanting a bit more run". With Pav coming back that is going to be removed from the mix. Can we still play the way we did against Carlton without that extra run?

In fact I think that Dawson and MJ are going to have to run plenty to stay with Cameron but because of his hight we cant shift either of them from their current position. Besides RTB likes a settled back 6 so. Nothing to see there. Unless C Pearce is too sore to play.

We are almost certain to see a sheridan or Sutcliff type dropped for Pav. Unless there is a plan to rest someone like Mundy.

Only one change for my mind.

In: Pav
Out: The injured, the rested, or Sheridan

 

[clogged]

Pavlich certain to come in, but nobody goes out for a "rest" with him coming in, instead someone loses their spot, and may never get it back. With both him and MacPharlin coming back before the finals it should make some of our talls a bit nervous. Very difficult to see who will be dropped from the 22, and if I was MJ or Dawson or Mayne I would not be wanting to be "rested". Realistically we cannot simply add another 2 talls to our existing team without getting too tall.

Don't see it. All of MJ, Dawson and Mayne played in the finals last year, with Pavlich, Sandilands and Clarke/Bradley as second ruck, and Silvagni in for McPharlin.

I imagine the ideal side will look very similar to this one come finals:

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2012/010820120914.html#p1

With McPharlin in for Silvagni and D Pearce in for McPhee.

 

[Freomaniac]

considering Ibbo is Still injured, what will our back 6 look like? Would silvagni comeback?

Im curious what our back 6 might be like without Ibbo this week...

B: Duffield,Johnson, De boer

HB: Suban,Dawson,Spurr

De Boer has had a few games in defence has done well. Mitchie will get games against GWS and Melbourne. Would Faulks get a game in our back line?

With our Forward line, Pav is coming back. Would Crozier get a game this week in the forward flank?

As for the mids, Is it worth the risk to rest Barlow or mundy? I would prefer to rest Mzungu or Clancee Pearce instead. I dont know on how good/bad Josh Simpsons form is going, but would he be good enough to get a game this week?

 

[Quokka]

Should MacPharlin/MJ go forward?

why would one go forward now?

Pavlich, Mayne, Walters, Ballantyne, resting ruckman and a random midfielder striding into open space, I've been waiting for this forward line all year!

 

[malpaso]

considering Ibbo is Still injured, what will our back 6 look like? Would silvagni comeback?

Im curious what our back 6 might be like without Ibbo this week...

Bit of a strange question considering he was out last week and look what how we lined up..

 

[Freomaniac]

Bit of a strange question considering he was out last week and look what how we lined up..

Well were thinking of resting players, so we might chuck another mid in the defensive flank.

I know for a fact Freo have rotated mids to play up forward as well

 

[salim malik]

Ross did say with the lesser light mids now standing up and playing good footy,ie Suban,Neale,Suttcliffe etc it gives him a chance to play the taller mids Fyfe and Mundy forward .

 

[Silent Alarm]

Duffield •••• Dawson •••••• Spurr
Suban •••••• Johnson •••• DeBoer
Hill ••••••••• Barlow ••• D Pearce
Mellington •• Mayne •••••••• Fyfe
Ballantyne •• Pavlich •••• Walters

Middle: Clarke •• Mzungu •• Crowley
Interchange: Sandilands •• Neale •• Sutcliffe
Sub: Michie

Out: Clancee, Mundy, Sheridan
In: Pavlich, Mellington, Michie
A pretty young side with Neale, Sutcliffe, and Michie taking up the spots in the guts and Mello in the forward line. Realistically, I can't see Mellington playing unfortunately (and Viv either), but this is the idealistic scenario.

Johnson works so much better when he's not in the middle. So I chucked Dawson as a full back.

 

[Leatherpoizoned]

Duffield •••• Dawson •••••• Spurr
Suban •••••• Johnson •••• DeBoer
Hill ••••••••• Barlow ••• D Pearce
Mellington •• Mayne •••••••• Fyfe
Ballantyne •• Pavlich •••• Walters

Middle: Clarke •• Mzungu •• Crowley
Interchange: Sandilands •• Neale •• Sutcliffe
Sub: Michie

Out: Clancee, Mundy, Sheridan
In: Pavlich, Mellington, Michie
A pretty young side with Neale, Sutcliffe, and Michie taking up the spots in the guts and Mello in the forward line. Realistically, I can't see Mellington playing unfortunately (and Viv either), but this is the idealistic scenario.

Johnson works so much better when he's not in the middle. So I chucked Dawson as a full back.

I like this. Sandi Playing out of the square a little more and giving some youngsters a run through the middle, I think Croz could also be an option instead of Mello.

 

[theGav56]

why would one go forward now?

Pavlich, Mayne, Walters, Ballantyne, resting ruckman and a random midfielder striding into open space, I've been waiting for this forward line all year!

I think a tall needs to go out for both of MacP and Pavlich to come in. Can't just get rid of Sheriden and Sutcliffe. Structurally that is a big change. There needs to be some adjustment. And for the MCG I can see one of our tall backs playing a different role.

 

[clogged]

Which tall?

 

[Quokka]

Fair enough though I'm ok with going in taller, so far we've either had Taberner or been noticeably too short in attack without Pavlich so no stress there.

Ibbotson in pushes CPearce further forward and I'll agree that when Macpharlin returns that'd be Ibbo, Macpharlin, MJ, Dawson, Spurr and Duffield which is tall but still a stronger defense imo (and would match up with the hawks much better then our last encounter).


An attack of Pavlich, Mayne, Walters, Ballantyne, resting ruckman, rotating/attacking midfielder....And for me if that means Neale, Sherridan and Sutcliffe have to fight over one green vest, well then wouldn't it be great to have no injuries .



(With the reality most likely being an injury will keep one in the starting 21 and one in the green vest).

 

[Leatherpoizoned]

I don't see why a tall needs to be dropped. We have been playing with no tall forward and with Johnsons flexibility to play tall/short and rebound we have probably been one tall short in the back half. Fortunately our supreme midfield and Ross's tactical nous have covered these areas. I think we will be more balanced with two more 192+ ins.

 

[Sman-21]

Yep we have been a tall short down back(haha) lately but due to our great pressure it has covered up that hole and we have been getting by.
We are currently not playing our desired lineup and amount of talls due to players missing.
Our desired lineup is 2 tall forwards, 2 key defenders and the 3rd tall MJ.
Thats why at times we have seen Silvagni thrown in as a forward and guys like Hannath and Taberner getting games.