Autopsy Round 7, 2023: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide *WOOD 100TH*

[phantom13]

Also when you watch the highlights they got out the back of our defensive zone and scored from it while they did the same press and we couldn't cut through it. Their inside 50 kicks were very clean and they converted from hard angles or freak shots. We let teams take shots but they are low percentage. After quarter time they hit theirs at an above average rate. Powell-Pepper tight on the boundary, bobbling balls falling to Willie Rioli, Finlayson scoring a snap goal off a spill from Dixon.

It seemed like one of those nights where they pulled some goals out of their ass and got the bounce alot more than we did.

Granted they were outnumbering us at the ground ball contests and as you (and I) pointed out, they were taking the d50 kick into the middle and hitting it alot.

 

[phantom13]

Hopefully. Though Owens is yet to show that he has that type of inside mid ball winning ability.

The other aspects of Owens game are all elite at present. So yes it would be great if he could be, but that is rare skillset. So he may not be good enough in that particular role. One can dream of course.

I think Owens would wind up doing the Dusty/DeGoey thing and being at the clearances then bursting forward and resting on a HF flank.

For clarity im not saying he is Dusty or even could be Dusty just that that type of role seems tailor made for him.

 

[Nutsngum]

i agree and thanks fro repying. What about someone replacing Cordy?

I think Lyon is very aware that Cordy is not really a natural forward at all hence why he is playing as that forward pulling defenders out of the contest and he will take at minimum the 2nd best defender (funnily enough, Higgins seems to be copping the best defender the last couple of weeks which has severely hurt his game, Caminiti going out was very not ideal).

I reckon Cordy is in until King is back in, you just have to mantain that forward line structure. We could arguably run with just Caminiti but I dont think the kid is mature enough to be the only tall key forward on the ground.
Cordy had an awful game on the weekend hence him getting subbed again but we dont have a lot of choice really. Campbell is not really any better as a forward but isnt agile enough to really draw defenders, he would have to compete to make a difference and Lyon obviously doesnt think he can do it.

 

[phantom13]

I think Lyon is very aware that Cordy is not really a natural forward at all hence why he is playing as that forward pulling defenders out of the contest and he will take at minimum the 2nd best defender (funnily enough, Higgins seems to be copping the best defender the last couple of weeks which has severely hurt his game, Caminiti going out was very not ideal).

I reckon Cordy is in until King is back in, you just have to mantain that forward line structure. We could arguably run with just Caminiti but I dont think the kid is mature enough to be the only tall key forward on the ground.
Cordy had an awful game on the weekend hence him getting subbed again but we dont have a lot of choice really. Campbell is not really any better as a forward but isnt agile enough to really draw defenders, he would have to compete to make a difference and Lyon obviously doesnt think he can do it.

Does Campbell come in as number 1 ruck and get Roma forward more?

There has to be a better option than Cordy, its hard to see how he retains his place coming off Friday.

 

[Nutsngum]

Does Campbell come in as number 1 ruck and get Roma forward more?

There has to be a better option than Cordy, its hard to see how he retains his place coming off Friday.

Marshall has never been a consistent foward though. Paddy Ryder was the one who was reguarly kicking goals up there. God it would be nice if he could have played on but theres no way he would have suited our gameplan right now.

Believe me, if I were coach I would probably play cambpell but then I havent taken two afl teams to three grand finals either so I dont know s**t really.

 

[phantom13]

Marshall has never been a consistent foward though. Paddy Ryder was the one who was reguarly kicking goals up there. God it would be nice if he could have played on but theres no way he would have suited our gameplan right now.

Believe me, if I were coach I would probably play cambpell but then I havent taken two afl teams to three grand finals either so I dont know s**t really.

Neither has Cordy though...

Campbell is a competent ruckman and Goldy is getting on a bit. It might be a decent week to try it out TBH.

Campbell and Roma swapping in the ruck. Let Mitch or resting ruckman do all the work forward of centre.

 

[Saintbloke]

Cordy is getting a game as he added some strength to the forward contests, but if that drops away during the match, he gets subbed and I think the experiment is starting to fall away. Campbell has strength but not much mobility and pretty much a ruck only. I would almost give him the game in the ruck, leave Cordy out, and put Marshall in the forward half

 

[Joffaboy]

I dont know about more intense necceassarily. The overall team tracker is marginally higher but the individual amounts are lower (although the app only lets you see the top 5, which are mostly Port players). The top 5 defensive workrate was all Port as well.

The issue is that whilst you can push yourself through hard gut running, if you are genuinely at your limit you absoluely suffer mentally which is where poor disposal creeps into your game.

I look at it as not "can we finish the race" but more "can we finish the race whilst mantaining composure". The latter is where we lost it.

Yes agreed. Posted earlier that it was more mental fatigue, than physical, but of course that can be a direct result of physical fatigue. Our defensive decision making was a fraction off, and coupled with Ports OTT defensive and pressure efforts led to lapses and Port picking apart the defence on occasions.

 

[stfan]

I think Owens would wind up doing the Dusty/DeGoey thing and being at the clearances then bursting forward and resting on a HF flank.

For clarity im not saying he is Dusty or even could be Dusty just that that type of role seems tailor made for him.

Hopefully in part. Though like winning the ball as an inside mid (against gun mids), bursting out from a ball up is something that he is yet to prove. Early days yet of course.

However Owens has already shown that he is good on the outside, is a good contested mark, crumbs well, is a good kick on goals, and can chop out in the ruck well.

All of this makes him hard match up for opposition coaches.

 

[phantom13]

Hopefully in part. Though like winning the ball as an inside mid (against gun mids), bursting out from a ball up is something that he is yet to prove. Early days yet of course.

However Owens has already shown that he is good on the outside, is a good contested mark, crumbs well, is a good kick on goals, and can chop out in the ruck well.

All of this makes him hard match up for opposition coaches.

Fair, although he hasnt had much chance to show it. Hes shown genuine one on one ability as a forward, that usually translates to being able to break or at least hold up in tackles and traffic.

 

[hayes]

I was pretty happy we were at least able to match Port’s big bulls in the middle given we were obliterated in that area against Carlton. Our midfield tries hard and they’re good players and this won’t be news to anyone but we’re lacking dynamic players in there. JHF showed us what we don’t have and need to find whether it’s from within or brought in.

Owens’ contested numbers are getting beyond a joke. Petracca hovered around 9-10 CP per game in the forward line before moving into the middle, Owens is currently averaging 11 as a forward. Who knows what he can do as a permanent midfielder in time but surely that can only go up. I’d still be reluctant to change his role too much given how well he’s playing.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I thought the clearest demonstration of the tiredness was the lack of cleanliness either getting the ball or disposing of it.

I put that down to Ports actual extremely high pressure and consequently their referred pressure.

Probably a combination of both, I’d say.
May have been able to deal with their pressure better after a longer break.

We’ll never really know I guess as it’s hard to quantify definitively. I also did see the stat about the fact we ran more than the Carlton game.

Anyway it’s done now I guess. Pity we didn’t have the Roos/Port games reversed.

 

[bird_man]

I don't know what game you were watching but he disappeared after half time and Boak started to destroy us along with SPP. Horne Francis had a good 40 minute parch, not very on ground. Plus he butchered the ball so badly, I wasn't worried he got the ball.

I think I was watching the right game in the end

St Kilda v Port Adelaide​

10 Jason Horne-Francis (PORT)
6 Rowan Marshall (STK)
6 Travis Boak (PORT)
4 Zak Butters (PORT)
2 Sam Powell-Pepper (PORT)
1 Jack Sinclair (STK)
1 Mitch Owens (STK)

 

[AirWinmar]

I think Lyon is very aware that Cordy is not really a natural forward at all hence why he is playing as that forward pulling defenders out of the contest and he will take at minimum the 2nd best defender (funnily enough, Higgins seems to be copping the best defender the last couple of weeks which has severely hurt his game, Caminiti going out was very not ideal).

I reckon Cordy is in until King is back in, you just have to mantain that forward line structure. We could arguably run with just Caminiti but I dont think the kid is mature enough to be the only tall key forward on the ground.
Cordy had an awful game on the weekend hence him getting subbed again but we dont have a lot of choice really. Campbell is not really any better as a forward but isnt agile enough to really draw defenders, he would have to compete to make a difference and Lyon obviously doesnt think he can do it.

I don't think Cordy is dragging that many defenders away - certainly wasn't against Port

 

[Nutsngum]

Neither has Cordy though...

Campbell is a competent ruckman and Goldy is getting on a bit. It might be a decent week to try it out TBH.

Campbell and Roma swapping in the ruck. Let Mitch or resting ruckman do all the work forward of centre.

Yeah, understand what youre saying. I think Cordy just fits the gameplan better in that he is more mobile. Cambpell is a solid unit but more lumbering.

 

[Nutsngum]

I don't think Cordy is dragging that many defenders away - certainly wasn't against Port

Wether its effective enough is up to how the opposition play and how the team utilizes it. Cordy is just playing a set role as given to him by the coach. Unless you expect him to be physically dragging opponents out of the goal square and giving away free kicks.

 

[sunny3193]

Joffaboy

I sing the praises of RTB for introducing the verb/noun “audit” into football lexicology.

RTB releasing his inner accountant.

Just goes to show how asinine football commentary has actually become.

 

[stfan]

Yeah, understand what youre saying. I think Cordy just fits the gameplan better in that he is more mobile.

Opposition Coaches have worked out Cordy's decoy role. They just ignore him now in the main. So in the main it is 17 vs 18 on the ground.

Cambpell is a solid unit but more lumbering.

He may be, but Cordy hardly covers the ground well.

At present he only has to be half a game of not much to outperform Cordy. He is a better mark than Cordy, and more physical. And is reasonably decent in the ruck.

With Owens going quite well as a chop-out ruck, the other aspects of Cordy's game I believe we would get more value from:

• Billings
• Sharman
• Campbell

Tactics come and go in the AFL. The Cordy Gambit had a shelf live of about 4 games. Its use by date has expired.


But yes cannot wait till we can get both Caminiti and King into the 22.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Cordy had 1 possession in 3/4's of football and that possession came early in the first qtr.

If he gets selected again next week then thats a very very bad sign about selection integrity.

Campbell into the ruck against Goldy and Marshall forward is the obvious move and if it doesn't happen then you've got to start to worry about whether there's a bit of pig headedness creeping into selection.

 

[PoppedCorn]

If he gets selected its because he is doing what's asked of him

 

[pebblesofsand]

If he gets selected its because he is doing what's asked of him

If he is being asked to get 1 possession and a couple of hit outs a game then they should ask another question.

Any of Campbel, Sharman, Heath Keeler, Adams or Van Es could meet that target!!!

 

[PoppedCorn]

Hey i agree
Ive wanted cooper in since day dot
But cordy is doing what he is asked and ross actually said he is sacraficing his own game

Whether we like it or agree doesnt alter that

King comes back cordy is prob gone, but who goes when hammer comes back?
Thats what im waiting to see, what the side will be like once the two fwds are back (hayes is prob much further away) plus bilings coff and jones to get a chance?

Do we drop pou? Ross? Clark? Who is playing average football to fit these guys in?
Does membrey come out for hammer??
Does hammer even get back in?

Interesting two months coming up

 

[Ads734]

It seemed like one of those nights where they pulled some goals out of their ass and got the bounce alot more than we did.

Granted they were outnumbering us at the ground ball contests and as you (and I) pointed out, they were taking the d50 kick into the middle and hitting it alot.

Agree completely
Eg
Boaks first goal just snuck under the saints defender.
The crouch clearance after we hit the front was just pressured enough, the kick didn’t quite make it far enough I think then burton managed to get one hand on it then grabbed the mark. Same as some other moments. SPP just breaking through Battles tackle etc.

 

[Mowman]

Hey i agree
Ive wanted cooper in since day dot
But cordy is doing what he is asked and ross actually said he is sacraficing his own game

Whether we like it or agree doesnt alter that

King comes back cordy is prob gone, but who goes when hammer comes back?
Thats what im waiting to see, what the side will be like once the two fwds are back (hayes is prob much further away) plus bilings coff and jones to get a chance?

Do we drop pou? Ross? Clark? Who is playing average football to fit these guys in?
Does membrey come out for hammer??
Does hammer even get back in?

Interesting two months coming up

We are 5W & 2L

What ever we are doing is working don't know how you can question selection integrity

 

[pebblesofsand]

Hey i agree
Ive wanted cooper in since day dot
But cordy is doing what he is asked and ross actually said he is sacraficing his own game

Whether we like it or agree doesnt alter that

King comes back cordy is prob gone, but who goes when hammer comes back?
Thats what im waiting to see, what the side will be like once the two fwds are back (hayes is prob much further away) plus bilings coff and jones to get a chance?

Do we drop pou? Ross? Clark? Who is playing average football to fit these guys in?
Does membrey come out for hammer??
Does hammer even get back in?

Interesting two months coming up

I think its King Membrey and Caminiti as the tall forwards. Can't see Hayes getting back in

Sinclair, Owens to the midfield.

Jones, Clark hbf/mid/bench.

Coff - no idea where he might fit in

Cordy, Paton, Windy probably first to go.

Billings for Phillipou.