Stephen Silvagni and Carlton

[Dark Avenger]

So are you trying to tell me that pick one is worth pick 6 and pick 6 is worth pick one.Your reasoning is ridiculous, you have a better chance to geta better player, the higher the draft pick,just look at the stats.You've potentially just given away Brendan Goddard, NickRiewoldt, Brett Deludio, Hodge, Whitfield,Cooney or Sam Walsh

Where did I mention pick 6? I stated Carlton rolled the dice & lost but you are making out that Pick 1 is guaranteed to be the best player when they rarely are. I can reel off names as well too Paddy McCartin, Tom Boyd, Jack Watts, Des Headland, Travis Johnstone etc haven't lived up to being the number 1 pick while you make it sound like its impossible to pick good players at 11.
Here are some players that have been picked at 11 Dom Sheed, Lenny Hayes, Brad Johnson, Shaun Higgins, Steele Sidebottom, Tom Lynch, Toby Greene.
There are no guarantees Pick 1 is going to be the best player you said it yourself 'potentially.'
Would you rather have pick 1? Of course but when you throw in Liam Stocker as well it isn't the diabolic disaster everyone is making it out to be.

 

[joop]

Never change Bluebaggers hahah.

SPOTTED: Ross Lyon dining with Stephen Silvagni
What the?
Seems strange timing, but reports Freo coach Ross Lyon has today been spotted having lunch with Blues list boss Stephen Silvagni.
The pair are friends and business partners, but it seems a bizarre time to meet the day after Carlton sacked Brendon Bolton.

I would love for Ross Lyon to go to Carlton, another 5 years of Carlton fans misery.

 

[joop]

Where did I mention pick 6? I stated Carlton rolled the dice & lost but you are making out that Pick 1 is guaranteed to be the best player when they rarely are. I can reel off names as well too Paddy McCartin, Tom Boyd, Jack Watts, Des Headland, Travis Johnstone etc haven't lived up to being the number 1 pick while you make it sound like its impossible to pick good players at 11.
Here are some players that have been picked at 11 Dom Sheed, Lenny Hayes, Brad Johnson, Shaun Higgins, Steele Sidebottom, Tom Lynch, Toby Greene.
There are no guarantees Pick 1 is going to be the best player you said it yourself 'potentially.'
Would you rather have pick 1? Of course but when you throw in Liam Stocker as well it isn't the diabolic disaster everyone is making it out to be.

Yeh it's like would you rather Josh Kelly or Dom Tyson & Christian Salem?

 

[Dark Avenger]

Yeh it's like would you rather Josh Kelly or Dom Tyson & Christian Salem?

At the time I thought it was a reasonable trade Salem is a pretty good player & early on Dom Tyson immediately improved our team which was full of players that simply were not AFL level plus I think we got Jayden Hunt with a later pick in the same deal. I also believe James Aish was tipped by the media to go at number 2 so you never know who we would have picked if we kept it.
Having said all that If you knew that Josh Kelly would turn out to be the player he is you would never make that deal but you can't say its a mistake until you have the luxury of hindsight.

 

[Socrates2]

Where did I mention pick 6? I stated Carlton rolled the dice & lost but you are making out that Pick 1 is guaranteed to be the best player when they rarely are. I can reel off names as well too Paddy McCartin, Tom Boyd, Jack Watts, Des Headland, Travis Johnstone etc haven't lived up to being the number 1 pick while you make it sound like its impossible to pick good players at 11.
Here are some players that have been picked at 11 Dom Sheed, Lenny Hayes, Brad Johnson, Shaun Higgins, Steele Sidebottom, Tom Lynch, Toby Greene.
There are no guarantees Pick 1 is going to be the best player you said it yourself 'potentially.'
Would you rather have pick 1? Of course but when you throw in Liam Stocker as well it isn't the diabolic disaster everyone is making it out to be.

Yes but the draft points are a fairly accurate stat over time .https://www.draftguru.com.au/pick-value-calculator#11|1
and there's a big difference between pick 1 and 11. Stocker would have to br worth a pick 3 for Carlton to win the deal.

 

[Le Grille]

I think the issue with the large reliance of GWS players, its one thing to give players like that a look if you believe they have something that the orginal club doesn't see, but the likelihood of such a large group of 'castoffs (for want of a better term) and castoffs from one list all being hidden gems becomes unlikely. Either using the draft for mature aged recruits or looking for a small amount of delistees etc would seem a more balanced approached. Going scorched earth and throwing all this untried talent rarely works,

 

[HarryCurnow]

Yes but the draft points are a fairly accurate stat over time .https://www.draftguru.com.au/pick-value-calculator#11|1
and there's a big difference between pick 1 and 11. Stocker would have to br worth a pick 3 for Carlton to win the deal.

Umm who knows we might win another 3-4 games of the year under Teague we might not. Everyone is factoring in pick one is a foregone conclusion and fair enough to. But there is alot of football to be played. If Crows finish outside the top eight which is on the edge at this point and we finish 16th would you still be spouting nonsense?

 

[LanceRomance]

Meh, we could well get a priority pick this year.. and beat adelaide for the Lols

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Carlton has zero chance of a priority pick.

The AFL will more likely take an interest in what is happening with the Board, CEO and no doubt selection of the new Coach.

 

[Jughead77]

 

[jsher098]

Have a listen to this chat with Kouta. He mentions the importance of culture and in particular, the role a President can play in that (John Elliot). I know Elliot went on to cause significant damage, but at his best, he was a respected character and always made the effort to lift the players up and be as present as possible around the club.

The current President is a woeful bloke and looks as interested as a maccas drive through assistant. Get rid of the schmuck.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/anchor ... e/61314771

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3CQIUs6qO1WaFaWa2yKjC3

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...e ... 0439917448

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

SOS hasn't been perfect but he's done a pretty good job rebuilding carlton's list so far.

I've gone through it and the difference between carlton's list and brisbane's list right now is jarryd lyons and charlie cameron. handy players but not sure they account for 13 positions difference on the ladder.

apart from that, for every player in brisbane's best 22 i could find you a carlton player of relatively equal ability, age and potential.

 

[Catters 070911]

I think Stephen Silvagni is one of the worst list managers ever.

At GWS, he picked 20 of the first 25 players 2 years in a row. Hell, I could do that. When you get given that many early picks, you will naturally pick up a few superstars.

Then his list strategy at Carlton, is to bring some of those same players from GWS to Carlton.

So, he is effectively picking some of the same players twice.

Sure, he brought in Cripps and Curnow, but even a clock is right twice a day. Besides, I wonder if Cripps would be as highly rated by the media if he was wearing a North Melbourne jumper rather than a Carlton one.

Carlton's list is massively overrated, and if you think it isn't, than how come they still struggle to win many games a year.

Many of their players are young, and not ready to carry the load, or old, and past it. Murphy, Simpson and Thomas are in their last seasons.

Also, look at some of the guys SOS brought in from other clubs:- Sam Kerridge (Adelaide), Alex Fasolo (Collingwood), Rhys Palmer (Frem & GWS), Darcy Lang (Geel), Aaron Mullett (North Melb), Cam O'Shea (Port), Lobbe (Port) etc.

He even drafts in Alex Silvagni from Fremantle, because he is his nephew.

He brings in Thomas Bugg from Melbourne, who retires and never plays again. He brings in Matt Shaw from GCS, who is now off their list, by trading Nick Holman, who is a regular starter in GCS's best 22.

And then look at all the GWS players he has brought in over the years:- Jaksch, Wiley, Kennedy, Marchbank, Phillips, Sumner, Lamb, etc. Not exactly the cream of the crop from GWS. If SOS drafted in Coniglio, Shiels, Davis, Ward, Whitfield, Cameron or Kelly, I wouldn't be writing this post, but SOS brings the GWS leftovers to Carlton. The only one worth anything is Plowman.

Why bring in so many players from other clubs when they aren't in a premiership window? North Melbourne got criticised for bringing in Polec, Pittard, Tyson and Hall when they aren't in a premiership window, but don't seem to cane Carlton for all the players from other clubs they brought in, few of which are successful and still there.

Now, some might say that Carlton did well out of the Bryce Gibbs deal, getting two picks from the Crows for a guy who is in and out of the Adelaide side, but then that is watered down by the fact the Blues traded their first pick for Liam Stocker, and the Crows might end up with pick 1 next year. Plus the Crows have Eddie Betts running around for them, instead of Carlton.

The fact is, SOS is an overrated dud as a list manager, but his so many sycophantic Carlton fans and the media let him off the hook, again and again.

If Carlton keep SOS as a list manager, it would be the most sycophantically stupid thing since SOS was voted full-back of the Century, when he played up forward half the time, and not actual fullbacks like Geoff Southby, Bruce Doull, Chris Langford, David Dench, Danny Frawley etc.

 

[La Dispute]

I think Stephen Silvagni is one of the worst list managers ever.

At GWS, he picked 20 of the first 25 players 2 years in a row. Hell, I could do that. When you get given that many early picks, you will naturally pick up a few superstars.

Then his list strategy at Carlton, is to bring some of those same players from GWS to Carlton.

So, he is effectively picking some of the same players twice.

Sure, he brought in Cripps and Curnow, but even a clock is right twice a day. Besides, I wonder if Cripps would be as highly rated by the media if he was wearing a North Melbourne jumper rather than a Carlton one.

Carlton's list is massively overrated, and if you think it isn't, than how come they still struggle to win many games a year.

Many of their players are young, and not ready to carry the load, or old, and past it. Murphy, Simpson and Thomas are in their last seasons.

Also, look at some of the guys SOS brought in from other clubs:- Sam Kerridge (Adelaide), Alex Fasolo (Collingwood), Rhys Palmer (Frem & GWS), Darcy Lang (Geel), Aaron Mullett (North Melb), Cam O'Shea (Port), Lobbe (Port) etc.

He even drafts in Alex Silvagni from Fremantle, because he is his nephew.

He brings in Thomas Bugg from Melbourne, who retires and never plays again. He brings in Matt Shaw from GCS, who is now off their list, by trading Nick Holman, who is a regular starter in GCS's best 22.

And then look at all the GWS players he has brought in over the years:- Jaksch, Wiley, Kennedy, Marchbank, Phillips, Sumner, Lamb, etc. Not exactly the cream of the crop from GWS. If SOS drafted in Coniglio, Shiels, Davis, Ward, Whitfield, Cameron or Kelly, I wouldn't be writing this post, but SOS brings the GWS leftovers to Carlton. The only one worth anything is Plowman.

Why bring in so many players from other clubs when they aren't in a premiership window? North Melbourne got criticised for bringing in Polec, Pittard, Tyson and Hall when they aren't in a premiership window, but don't seem to cane Carlton for all the players from other clubs they brought in, few of which are successful and still there.

Now, some might say that Carlton did well out of the Bryce Gibbs deal, getting two picks from the Crows for a guy who is in and out of the Adelaide side, but then that is watered down by the fact the Blues traded their first pick for Liam Stocker, and the Crows might end up with pick 1 next year. Plus the Crows have Eddie Betts running around for them, instead of Carlton.

The fact is, SOS is an overrated dud as a list manager, but his so many sycophantic Carlton fans and the media let him off the hook, again and again.

If Carlton keep SOS as a list manager, it would be the most sycophantically stupid thing since SOS was voted full-back of the Century, when he played up forward half the time, and not actual fullbacks like Geoff Southby, Bruce Doull, Chris Langford, David Dench, Danny Frawley etc.

Nice try. A quick fact check wouldn’t go astray next time though.

To help you out though:

- Cripps was taken under the previous admin, as one of the only major hits
- Jaksch and Wiley were brought in by Hughes and co. They were traded out by SOS
- The Gibbs deal and Stocker deal were independent of each other
- Betts departed under the previous regime. Again, nothing to do with SOS
- Holman was delisted, went to play SANFL and was then rookied by Gold Coast. There was no trade here.

 

[Duskfire]

It’s why you should never hire favoured sons into a position at a club. Hard to get rid of and escape scrutiny.

 

[Catters 070911]

Have a listen to this chat with Kouta. He mentions the importance of culture and in particular, the role a President can play in that (John Elliot). I know Elliot went on to cause significant damage, but at his best, he was a respected character and always made the effort to lift the players up and be as present as possible around the club.

The current President is a woeful bloke and looks as interested as a maccas drive through assistant. Get rid of the schmuck.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/anchor ... e/61314771

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3CQIUs6qO1WaFaWa2yKjC3

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...e ... 0439917448

Carlton's culture is a losing one, because they decided to tank.

Once they decided that it was okay to lose games to get picks, it created a culture where losing was acceptable (don't believe me, then how come neither Carlton or Melbourne have had much success since tanking for picks).

I remember as a child when Jezza, Doull, Ashby, and many others were playing for Carlton in the 70's and 80's. Carlton were a feared team, who did not accept losing. They won lots of flags, because they had a never-say-die attitude. They didn't need to tank or go over the salary cap to get success, they just got in the best talent and were the best team. How different that Carlton culture is to today's one.

Carlton had never had a wooden spoon for the first 105 years they were in the league. Now they are starting a collection, all because they were happy to get one or two to gain a first pick and a priority pick.

I could never understand all the praise for Jon Elliott. He was an obnoxious jerk, and I once heard that he considered running for PM against Keating. If that happened, I would have voted for Keating (and I couldn't stand him).

A history lesson. Back in 1979, President George Harris got sacked by the Carlton board and members for making a joke about Collingwood, and even sacked Alex Jesaulenko, their best player who had just captained-coached them to a premiership three months earlier. That is how much they wanted to get rid of Harris, yet Elliott said many more offensive things than Harris, and everyone laughed it off (before you say that is because Elliott was part of a winning Carlton culture, Harris was president of the premiership club in 1979, so it had nothing to do with lack of success).

I feel no sympathy for Carlton, as they are reaping what they have sown from past sins. Maybe tap into that winning culture from the '70s and '80s. Have greats who were there tell today's players how to have that feeling again, and the club needs to stop taking shortcuts and win because they are the best, not because they manufactured it.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Carlton's list is massively overrated, and if you think it isn't, than how come they still struggle to win many games a year.

because the coaches weren't very good. i believe it's been in the news recently.

 

[Gunf]

If he was he would be in Carlton’s best 22.

Maybe he is...

 

[Catters 070911]

Nice try. A quick fact check wouldn’t go astray next time though.

To help you out though:

- Cripps was taken under the previous admin, as one of the only major hits
- Jaksch and Wiley were brought in by Hughes and co. They were traded out by SOS
- The Gibbs deal and Stocker deal were independent of each other
- Betts departed under the previous regime. Again, nothing to do with SOS
- Holman was delisted, went to play SANFL and was then rookied by Gold Coast. There was no trade here.

-So SOS doesn't get credit for Cripps either. Has he brought in anyone who isn't a dud?
-My understanding was that SOS brought Jaksch and Wiley along with him when he became list manager. I was sure that they were brought in the summer SOS was appointed Carlton list manager.
-Maybe so, but gaining two picks for Gibbs, and yet giving away possible pick 1 for a kid that has proven nothing, waters down what Carlton gained from Adelaide.
-Nethertheless, Holman is a regular fixture in the GCS team, and Matt Shaw isn't even at Carlton anymore, so the guy you lost has bitten Carlton on the bum, but you gained nothing from one of their guys. Also, neither could get a game at their previous club, yet GCS are able to turn Holman into a regular senior player, something Carlton failed to do.

 

[Catters 070911]

because the coaches weren't very good. i believe it's been in the news recently.

Neither Malthouse nor Bolton could do anything with the list.

Ratten got sacked as well because the club thought he underperformed.

If all these coaches can't get much out of the list, than maybe it can't always be everyone else's fault.

 

[Gunf]

If Carlton apply for a priority pick the AFL should laugh in the face of every one of them in public and say your fault deal with it

 

[La Dispute]

-So SOS doesn't get credit for Cripps either. Has he brought in anyone who isn't a dud?
-My understanding was that SOS brought Jaksch and Wiley along with him when he became list manager. I was sure that they were brought in the summer SOS was appointed Carlton list manager.
-Maybe so, but gaining two picks for Gibbs, and yet giving away possible pick 1 for a kid that has proven nothing, waters down what Carlton gained from Adelaide.
-Nethertheless, Holman is a regular fixture in the GCS team, and Matt Shaw isn't even at Carlton anymore, so the guy you lost has bitten Carlton on the bum, but you gained nothing from one of their guys. Also, neither could get a game at their previous club, yet GCS are able to turn Holman into a regular senior player, something Carlton failed to do.

Clutching at the straws brother.

Nick Holman and an SANFL standard Bryce Gibbs aren’t doing anything for us at the moment.

 

[Scotland]

SOS hasn't been perfect but he's done a pretty good job rebuilding carlton's list so far.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

I've gone through it and the difference between carlton's list and brisbane's list right now is jarryd lyons and charlie cameron. handy players but not sure they account for 13 positions difference on the ladder.

apart from that, for every player in brisbane's best 22 i could find you a carlton player of relatively equal ability, age and potential.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion either.

 

[Tom14]

Not sure how you came to that conclusion.



Not sure how you came to that conclusion either.

I'd also appreciate to see the working on this one!

 

[Socrates2]

Carlton has zero chance of a priority pick.

The AFL will more likely take an interest in what is happening with the Board, CEO and no doubt selection of the new Coach.

I agree, I think the AFL might step in and provide management assistance.