Stephen Silvagni and Carlton

[HarryCurnow]

Think all the names here should have some heat on them.

Silvagni is at the top of the hierarchy.

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Nope - list is abundant of elite young talent that need to be drilled correctly.

 

[Corpuscles]

Having seen Stocker really close playing out of his prime position as an inside pitbull. He never makes mistakes in the backhalf (playing out of position) and his aggression for a teenager is second to none. I look forward to our next coach playing him in position and develop him the right way.

Whoever you are (somewhat obvious- inner sanctum, mature age & defender of SOS) , your comments are interesting and intriguing. Thanks.

I feel sympathy for Stoker. Why would that footage of Carlton at draft time be released publicly? Talk about putting unnecessary huge pressure on a young hopeful fella!

So, if I read your above comment correctly you think the selection team got it absolutely right and it will be the next (sacked?) coaches fault if he doesn't develop him ("the right way" whatever that is?) into a crack gun inside midfielder because SOS is always right, but the next coach could be wrong!?

Stoker was worth the risk that Carlton would bounce off the bottom in the first year and gain an equal or better final ladder position than Adelaide in 2019 - in his first year?

I haven't paid much attention to him (or Carlton) this year. I truly wish him well. Hopefully the wind will blow a gale and he will be able to guide the ball beautifully onto his left boot at Ballarat!

fwiw I was impressed that SOS remained calm and focused in the face of all that audience and was decisive to bordering on obsessive about one young potential. Couldn't have been easy with fat gutz scoffing lollies alongside him.

Go Stoker!!!

 

[LoungeLizard]

I agree their development has halted and we are 10 games away from turning Petrevski-Seton into Cale Morton and Cripps into Jack Trengrove - which is why immediate action had to be taken.

Bolton had a 10% win rate and just couldn't get his message across (whatever it was). If you saw any Carlton games you'd know how dysfunctional they were structurally and mentally. How this is SOS or Judds fault is beyond me.

Let's see what the next coach can do with this list.

But taking 13 GWS rejects IMO is not got list strategy.

 

[Harlequin Dream]

This has nothing to do with identifying talent.. A player like Tim Kelly for example, came into the draft as a risk.. In Carltons position we could not afford that risk but a club like Geelong can have the gamble knowing that if it doesnt work its no big deal.. With such a young list you can not throw a player with that sort of baggage into the group. Additionally the reason the late picks works at Hawks, Geelong is because of the senior players around them... Those same players put into the Carlton side would end up completely different if put into the Carlton side.


However since 2015 we have taken Michael Gibbons as a rookie and he looks okay, Tom De Konig a ruckmen that has shown a bit, Tom Williamson who could be anything but be crueled by a back injury, Zac Fisher at pick 27 who will def play 150 games and Jack Silvagni who is a good foot soldier and if it wasnt for his name would not receive anywhere near the criticism he cops.

You have picked up 21 players in that time in the 30+ range. All you have to your credit is 2 players who might be serviceable (Silvagni and Gibbons) and 2 players who on track in their first year but have struggled with injuries since (Williamson and De Koning). If everything goes right with these players his record with late picks will reach serviceable at best.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Not to defend SOS ( I reckon he's done a poor job), but the development at Carlton seems really bad. So much talent and such little return.

Although, returning to list building, getting some cheap mature guys with great attitudes in to protect the kids and show them how to train for the AFL would have helped I reckon. I guess that's what he tried with the GWS players.

 

[HarryCurnow]

Whoever you are (somewhat obvious- inner sanctum, mature age & defender of SOS) , your comments are interesting and intriguing. Thanks.

I feel sympathy for Stoker. Why would that footage of Carlton at draft time be released publicly? Talk about putting unnecessary huge pressure on a young hopeful fella!

So, if I read your above comment correctly you think the selection team got it absolutely right and it will be the next (sacked?) coaches fault if he doesn't develop him ("the right way" whatever that is?) into a crack gun inside midfielder because SOS is always right, but the next coach could be wrong!?

Stoker was worth the risk that Carlton would bounce off the bottom in the first year and gain an equal or better final ladder position than Adelaide in 2019 - in his first year?

I haven't paid much attention to him (or Carlton) this year. I truly wish him well. Hopefully the wind will blow a gale and he will be able to guide the ball beautifully onto his left boot at Ballarat!

fwiw I was impressed that SOS remained calm and focused in the face of all that audience and was decisive to bordering on obsessive about one young potential. Couldn't have been easy with fat gutz scoffing lollies alongside him.

Go Stoker!!!

Not that inner sanctum - not that old - its not the recruitment nor the board this time. If I felt SOS was making horrendous errors then ok.. but he's clearly not.

Plowman, Marchbank,Weitering, Stocker, SPS, Fisher, McKay, Curnow, Dow, Walsh, Cunningham, Williamson is as best I could hope for in terms of core elite youth with more coming underneath like Obrien and De Koning and more on the way.

If it was SOS then the heat should rightfully be on him - but that's as good as I could hope for. So no.

 

[chunkylover53]

Let's see what the next coach can do with this list.

But taking 13 GWS rejects IMO is not got list strategy.

Did you bother to read the rest of my earlier post? I listed 18 spuds Richmond bought in over 5 years. Do you think that was a good strategy now? Did you think it was a good strategy when Buckley turfed his naughty players and bought in:

Clarke
Yagmoor
Young
Russell
White
Karnezis
Armstrong
Gault (re-rookied)?
Aish
Wells
Mayne
Murray

I bet half way through 2017 you and the Collingwood faithful were absolutely thrilled with the continuing 'waste' of list spots.

Honestly, every single club picks up rejects that don't work out. Why do people think this is a new thing that SOS has invented?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

He is awful at what he does, but seems to be worshipped at the Blues. Must wear a huge blame for the last 4 years. He is the list manager, and the list has/had holes and experience gaps everywhere. Also has to wear a lot of responsibility for the trading pick 1 catastrophic blunder.

Catastrophic... please Stocker looks decent and Crows are no moral to play finals.. so let’s call it pick 10 & 19 for 1.. yes we lose on that and am sure we could probably get more.. but it’s far from a disaster..The kid who is pick 1 might end up the next Jack Watts or Tom Boyd.. it’s all speculative and anyone claiming to know more is FOS

 

[LoungeLizard]

Did you bother to read the rest of my earlier post? I listed 18 spuds Richmond bought in over 5 years. Do you think that was a good strategy now? Did you think it was a good strategy when Buckley turfed his naughty players and bought in:

Clarke
Yagmoor
Young
Russell
White
Karnezis
Armstrong
Gault (re-rookied)?
Aish
Wells
Mayne
Murray

I bet half way through 2017 you and the Collingwood faithful were absolutely thrilled with the continuing 'waste' of list spots.

Honestly, every single club picks up rejects that don't work out. Why do people think this is a new thing that SOS has invented?

Did you bother to read what i said?

13 rejects from 1 club, did Collingwood and Richmond (who have nothing to do with this thread) take 13 rejects from 1 club?

 

[10571z]

EFA.

Honestly such truly pathetic analysis going on here.

Every club picks up crap players to fill a list spot, let alone one completely cutting its list like Carlton have.

It’s funny – everyone says we went too young and didn’t bring in any mature players, the same sentence they say we bought in too many mature players and don’t value list spots.

**** me dead, there are what - 44 players on a list? Of the list of players you put, 15 of them were completely useless. Considering there’s been 54 changes to the list in 4 years and 15 of them haven’t served a purpose in the senior side, that’s a 73% hit rate for SOS. Yeah what an absolute ******* failure, much spuds, gws rejects herp de derp.

Do people research before they form an opinion or just read **** like the Herald Sun?

I barely have the energy to bother responding. But if you think SOS has a 73% hit rate you are dreaming.

Anyways keep that head in the sand.

You literally named a premiership player in that list

 

[chunkylover53]

Did you bother to read what i said?

13 rejects from 1 club, did Collingwood and Richmond (who have nothing to do with this thread) take 13 rejects from 1 club?

Do you not understand AFL football?

GWS and GC came into the league and diluted the draft by 80 odd players, they were given extra list spots and salary cap space which eventually ran dry. This means they were easy to trade with and instead of negotiating for a fringe player from Hawthorn for 4 weeks, Carlton could go to GWS who were desperate for points and salary cap space, and poach former first round picks on the cheap in swift, easy deals, as well as use them as ammo for bigger deals.

It's really not rocket science.

 

[longsuffreosupp]

I just think it's a case of really turning over the list to the point that hardly any players are cemented in their spots, so no cohesion and the lineups keep flip flopping.

 

[10571z]

Do you not understand AFL football?

GWS and GC came into the league and diluted the draft by 80 odd players, they were given extra list spots and salary cap space which eventually ran dry. This means they were easy to trade with and instead of negotiating for a fringe player from Hawthorn for 4 weeks, Carlton could go to GWS who were desperate for points and salary cap space, and poach former first round picks on the cheap in swift, easy deals, as well as use them as ammo for bigger deals.

It's really not rocket science.

Worked out really well! Solid trade strategy.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Do you not understand AFL football?

GWS and GC came into the league and diluted the draft by 80 odd players, they were given extra list spots and salary cap space which eventually ran dry. This means they were easy to trade with and instead of negotiating for a fringe player from Hawthorn for 4 weeks, Carlton could go to GWS who were desperate for points and salary cap space, and poach former first round picks on the cheap in swift, easy deals, as well as use them as ammo for bigger deals.

It's really not rocket science.

Oh really, so you have it all covered then, so if it's so easy, why 2 from 22 and 1 from 11?

Do i not understand football?
haha no i don't i suppose, taking rejects from clubs is risky, taking 13 is suicide.

 

[chunkylover53]

I barely have the energy to bother responding. But if you think SOS has a 73% hit rate you are dreaming.

Anyways keep that head in the sand.

You literally named a premiership player in that list

Worked out really well! Solid trade strategy.

Solid discussion, backing up your points pretty well here.

Every club brings in recycled players, why does it matter that most of them were from GWS?

I also didn't say he had a 73% hit rate, you did, because you can't count or do any research.

 

[chunkylover53]

Oh really, so you have it all covered then, so if it's so easy, why 2 from 22 and 1 from 11?

Do i not understand football?
haha no i don't i suppose, taking rejects from clubs is risky, taking 13 is suicide.

As I said earlier I think the reason we are performing so badly on-field is due to poor coaching and being too young. Hopefully with another pre-season, a new coach and some mature best 22 players some progress can be made.

I just listed 12 spuds Collingwood took over Buckleys tenure - is that suicide?

 

[SickQwon]

I just think it's a case of really turning over the list to the point that hardly any players are cemented in their spots, so no cohesion and the lineups keep flip flopping.

Nail. Head.

Players probably don't even know their teammates names yet.

 

[LoungeLizard]

As I said earlier I think the reason we are performing so badly on-field is due to poor coaching and being too young. Hopefully with another pre-season, a new coach and some mature best 22 players some progress can be made.

I just listed 12 spuds Collingwood took over Buckleys tenure - is that suicide?

12 from 1 club?

You can't really get a grasp on that can you?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So touching to see so many opposition supporters with Carlton's best interests at heart. That's how we know we can trust your considered opinions on this.

 

[Corpuscles]

Not that inner sanctum - not that old - its not the recruitment nor the board this time. If I felt SOS was making horrendous errors then ok.. but he's clearly not.

Plowman, Marchbank,Weitering, Stocker, SPS, Fisher, McKay, Curnow, Dow, Walsh, Cunningham, Williamson is as best I could hope for in terms of core elite youth with more coming underneath like Obrien and De Koning and more on the way.

If it was SOS then the heat should rightfully be on him - but that's as good as I could hope for. So no.

Contrary to most here I think Carltons talent stocks and potential is reasonably good.
Also , I tend to agree, the word you used "currency" SOS didn't have a lot to trade with - not much in the bank other than future draft picks and picking up salary dumps or (to use someone else's analogy) finding the odd rough "diamond" in other clubs discarded "tomato's".

However Carlton still seem to have the mentality that it is individual class players that will turn it around (cultural hangover from the brown paper bag raid 'em all superstars days)

The only hope is a proven coach , proven strategy, who can build a cohesive TEAM effort! Oh and has a plan not just hopes!

 

[chunkylover53]

12 from 1 club?

You can't really get a grasp on that can you?

They were the easiest to trade with due to their list having to be cut and salary cap space reducing.

You can't really get a grasp on that can you?

I well and truly can't understand the benefit of getting 12 useless players from other clubs vs. the one club. Please enlighten me how Carlton would have benefited if we got players from the other clubs that were going to serve no purpose anyway.

 

[CFC2010]

Do you not understand AFL football?

GWS and GC came into the league and diluted the draft by 80 odd players, they were given extra list spots and salary cap space which eventually ran dry. This means they were easy to trade with and instead of negotiating for a fringe player from Hawthorn for 4 weeks, Carlton could go to GWS who were desperate for points and salary cap space, and poach former first round picks on the cheap in swift, easy deals, as well as use them as ammo for bigger deals.

It's really not rocket science.

Its lazy recruiting...…………..that part is abundantly clear to most non Silvagni disciples.

 

[chunkylover53]

You literally named a premiership player in that list

Also displaying you solid knowledge here. Aaron Edwards mate, not Shane. Again, maybe do some research on other clubs, history and other indicators before forming your opinions.

 

[LoungeLizard]

They were the easiest to trade with due to their list having to be cut and salary cap space reducing.

You can't really get a grasp on that can you?

Oh i have a grasp on it alright, what i see now is a club in shambles, just sacked their coach and at the moment sit last on the ladder with 1 win.

This coming off a year where they just finished last with 2 wins.

But you keep telling yourself it was great list strategy.

 

[SickQwon]

Its lazy recruiting...…………..that part is abundantly clear to most non Silvagni disciples.

I think perspective is need here, go google Carlton's 2014/2015 list. Very little to almost zero youth on the team, luckily GWS couldn't play 30 first rounders on the field all at once and young players were leaking out. It was a good oppertunity for a rebuilding club to cover a long term objective by injecting somewhat 13 first rounders under 22 into the side. It's not lazy, it's opertunistic. It wouldn't make sense for a club in the top 8 to do the same strategy. Thats why that other Collingwood supporter is struggling so hard to comprehend.

I back it, it's logical and makes sense if you understand the transition from what we had back then and now.
I'm not confident it worked purely based on hindsight but it was worth a shot.