- Apr 27, 2014
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you must have been pinching yourself as SOS took all those blokes off your hands and opened up the list spots to get some developing talent in at GWS.
Stephen Silvagni and Carlton
- Thread starter Kram
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lol, cain liddle.
just checked his linkedin and he still thinks he's CEO of carlton
.without doubt the worst appointment we've made in recent years, Richmond would have been pissing themselves at us when we stole their membership guru off them to be our CEO.
back to SOS. did an outstanding job with us considering the little currency he had. you're all just too stupid to understand the trades he made because they're a few sentences long involving more than 1 or 2 picks at a time.
we're 8-2 and he's responsible for 14-16 players each week who are contributing to that; how can people honestly still try and say he was no good for us??
- Mar 26, 2015
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He left a year earlier than planned and it was mutual. He stood back on any decisions regarding his boys.
Liddle was desperately telling anyone who would listen that he felt like SOS would sabotage the upcoming draft, despite no proof of that. You're conflating that with some made up opinion that SOS had strange recruiting ideas.
There was no secret that Liddle and SOS didn't get along. Liddle was overstepping his role and trying to recruit Tigers rejects like Ellis.
Funny that after our external footy department review that supposedly didn't encompass his role, Liddle was virtually the only one to lose his job in the aftermath.
Even Brad Lloyd, who looked dead in the water, has come out the other side and seems to be doing well. It's almost like Liddle was stopping others from performing their best.
The lasting legacy for SOS is around half a dozen or so players who are considered best 22-26 in a team sitting 3rd on 8-2.
Liddle's legacy at Carlton is nearly recruiting Ellis outside of his role, getting the list manager sacked and being virtually the only backroom victim of a review cleanout.
Stop pushing your false narrative.
Flaggers22
Draftee
- May 24, 2022
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Personally, I think Silvagni was lacking in certain areas, but overall had a net positive effect on the Carlton list. The identification of key position talent and salary cap management were clear strengths of his, conversely, his identification of talented mids and flankers was probably below average. I think we had mostly good outcomes in trade/fa, however, if he was successful in recruiting either Shiel or Coniglio, I'd argue it would've diminished his earlier success, as they're both only worth about half the money he was offering them. At the time, I disagreed with the decision to let Silvagni go, however, I'm finding it difficult to find fault in many of Austins list management decisions so far. I've loved what Austin has done with a weak draft hand and he's picked up some gems at the trade table and in free agency, although he definitely paid overs for Williams.
Also, just a quick comment on the number 1 pick debate. Walsh was the consensus number 1 pick, however, it seems a few clubs would've opted for Lukosius or Rankine (link below), so it's definitely not as straightforward as some are making it out to be and Silvagni does deserve a little bit of credit there.
www.afl.com.au
Also, just a quick comment on the number 1 pick debate. Walsh was the consensus number 1 pick, however, it seems a few clubs would've opted for Lukosius or Rankine (link below), so it's definitely not as straightforward as some are making it out to be and Silvagni does deserve a little bit of credit there.
Walsh, Lukosius or Rankine? Recruiters have their say
Thirteen club recruiters reveal who they would have taken with the top pick
www.afl.com.au
McGrath, McCartin
- Apr 27, 2014
- 6,365
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- Richmond
ahh ok, I thought it was the other way around, that SOS wanted Ellis but Cain blocked it, fair enough then.
Solid first post, get out while you canPersonally, I think Silvagni was lacking in certain areas, but overall had a net positive effect on the Carlton list. The identification of key position talent and salary cap management were clear strengths of his, conversely, his identification of talented mids and flankers was probably below average. I think we had mostly good outcomes in trade/fa, however, if he was successful in recruiting either Shiel or Coniglio, I'd argue it would've diminished his earlier success, as they're both only worth about half the money he was offering them. At the time, I disagreed with the decision to let Silvagni go, however, I'm finding it difficult to find fault in many of Austins list management decisions so far. I've loved what Austin has done with a weak draft hand and he's picked up some gems at the trade table and in free agency, although he definitely paid overs for Williams.
Also, just a quick comment on the number 1 pick debate. Walsh was the consensus number 1 pick, however, it seems a few clubs would've opted for Lukosius or Rankine (link below), so it's definitely not as straightforward as some are making it out to be and Silvagni does deserve a little bit of credit there.
Walsh, Lukosius or Rankine? Recruiters have their say
Thirteen club recruiters reveal who they would have taken with the top pick
- Jul 14, 2005
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I don’t many GWS supporters would look back fondly at SOS’ tenure, but it’s chalk and cheese.
The Giants had plenty of first round picks and SOS could afford to take a lot of risks. In 2011 he played safe, took plug and play mids when he could and grabbed Patton who looked like a future star.
In 2012 he took the obvious first choice in Whitfield then went JOR and Plowman. JOR was a reach, but he was a solid junior prospect from a long way back and wasn’t too far out of range. Was also seen as a good compliment to what they already had.
Then Plowman was an even bigger reach, but he was another Calder player, strong character and work ethic and was seen as a guy you can pencil into your best 22 for a decade and SOS probably overestimated his rebounding capabilities at junior level would translate to senior footy.
Jaksch and Corr should have been better picks than they were.
2013 Boyd and Kelly were easy picks. McCarthy was another pick that should have been better than it was, and he looked like a future star early days.
Then his 2014 haul just looks weird. He was clearly choosing players with upside, but just didn’t hit. Pickett had some good junior highlights and a surprisingly big engine, maybe he’d turn out similar to Yarran in a good system, but he should never had gone at 4.
Marchbank at 6 could have worked. The bloke clearly has talent and athleticism, but it hasn’t worked out at GWS or the Blues - mainly due to injury.
Ahern at 7 was way too early, but I get the thinking again. High upside, skilled, quick. Never saw the best of him, but he was unlucky was injury.
McKenna was a rookie pick I doubt many clubs were seriously contemplating as an ND pick.
I actually think the Blues benefited from SOS making so many blunders with his first rounders at the Giants, and now usually chooses percentage options. He also emphasises character and competitiveness and usually takes players who are high in both traits.
Some of his picks haven’t worked out, that’s often the luck of the draw when you’re a developing club and some players sink in a bad system but overall he’s done well with the limited resources he had to work with at the start of the rebuild.
The Giants had plenty of first round picks and SOS could afford to take a lot of risks. In 2011 he played safe, took plug and play mids when he could and grabbed Patton who looked like a future star.
In 2012 he took the obvious first choice in Whitfield then went JOR and Plowman. JOR was a reach, but he was a solid junior prospect from a long way back and wasn’t too far out of range. Was also seen as a good compliment to what they already had.
Then Plowman was an even bigger reach, but he was another Calder player, strong character and work ethic and was seen as a guy you can pencil into your best 22 for a decade and SOS probably overestimated his rebounding capabilities at junior level would translate to senior footy.
Jaksch and Corr should have been better picks than they were.
2013 Boyd and Kelly were easy picks. McCarthy was another pick that should have been better than it was, and he looked like a future star early days.
Then his 2014 haul just looks weird. He was clearly choosing players with upside, but just didn’t hit. Pickett had some good junior highlights and a surprisingly big engine, maybe he’d turn out similar to Yarran in a good system, but he should never had gone at 4.
Marchbank at 6 could have worked. The bloke clearly has talent and athleticism, but it hasn’t worked out at GWS or the Blues - mainly due to injury.
Ahern at 7 was way too early, but I get the thinking again. High upside, skilled, quick. Never saw the best of him, but he was unlucky was injury.
McKenna was a rookie pick I doubt many clubs were seriously contemplating as an ND pick.
I actually think the Blues benefited from SOS making so many blunders with his first rounders at the Giants, and now usually chooses percentage options. He also emphasises character and competitiveness and usually takes players who are high in both traits.
Some of his picks haven’t worked out, that’s often the luck of the draw when you’re a developing club and some players sink in a bad system but overall he’s done well with the limited resources he had to work with at the start of the rebuild.
GWS' list needs then, now and forever have been Key position depth and pressure small forwards.
Drafting for needs in the first round isn't a great look, but the Giants had so many picks and so much talent that they pretty much had to do that.
I can't knock the Ahern or Marchbank picks, they've both had just awful luck. And Pickett was the right kind of gamble I guess.
The reality is Sos had so many early picks at GWS he was bound to mess up a fair chunk of them. No one bats 100% even drafting best available at an established club with great development. Bringing guys in to a start up club with limited stability around them and rightly targeting some needs picks is fraught with danger.
Overall strategy (trade out, get picks, keep cap space) was very good, execution was mixed:
Trade outs:
Clean our salary cap to get in a great position to add players as they rise up the ladder, especially given Carlton can always attract players using the advantages big clubs have ($$$).
Drafting:
- Sadly had some shockers in SPS, Dow, O'Brien
Trade ins:
Trade arounds:
Moving up for Curnow and McKay remains his best work
Turned pick 4 (2019) in to 19 (Stocker), 17 (Kemp) and 20 (Philp). Adelaide turned that pick 4 in to 6, 11 (McAsey and Pedlar). Probably a decent argument to have sat still and taken Ash or Serong, although Stocker's good and Kemp has talent. Or see if GWS would've relented and let Tom Green go at pick 4.
I think Sos got a little to focused on running before the list could walk. A lot of flashes at boom or bust trade ins and recycled guys with (in theory) high ceilings like Smedts or Jarrod Garlett, but not enough solid citizen types. Same with the draft. The team wasn't ready for Paddy Dow, O'Brien and SPS. O'Brien might've made it through the other side now that an outside player has some use.
Accepting a lot of players as salary cap filler couldn't have been good for the culture either. You've got guys on big money stuck in the VFL playing out their contracts and you aren't forming a base to work with in the actual AFL side.
Really after nailing that first draft with Weitering, McKay and Curnow the plan should've been to add a couple of really solid midfielders to go around Cripps and have the base for the next 10 years. Instead it took being bad enough to get Walsh and until now to get Hewett and Cerra, wasting a lot of time with a list without the right foundations.
So the initial plan was great but Sos probably got fairly carried away chasing more home run picks.
Trade outs:
- Henderson, Bell, Troy Menzel and use picks to get up the draft order to get Curnow and McKay.
- Sold high on Gibbs
- Touhy for Marchbank hasn't gone well but wasn't bad, didn't need Smedts throw in
Clean our salary cap to get in a great position to add players as they rise up the ladder, especially given Carlton can always attract players using the advantages big clubs have ($$$).
Drafting:
- Nailed the talls
- Nailed Walsh (not hard)
- Had some good picks like Fisher and De Koning
- Sadly had some shockers in SPS, Dow, O'Brien
Trade ins:
- Overly seduced by failed GWS talent. Plowman being ok value. Kennedy being good (but not rated by Teague). Marchbank being unlucky. But too many list cloggers.
- Overly seduced by boom or bust types in McGovern and Martin. They might end up booming, but so far it's been far more bust.
Trade arounds:
Moving up for Curnow and McKay remains his best work
Turned pick 4 (2019) in to 19 (Stocker), 17 (Kemp) and 20 (Philp). Adelaide turned that pick 4 in to 6, 11 (McAsey and Pedlar). Probably a decent argument to have sat still and taken Ash or Serong, although Stocker's good and Kemp has talent. Or see if GWS would've relented and let Tom Green go at pick 4.
I think Sos got a little to focused on running before the list could walk. A lot of flashes at boom or bust trade ins and recycled guys with (in theory) high ceilings like Smedts or Jarrod Garlett, but not enough solid citizen types. Same with the draft. The team wasn't ready for Paddy Dow, O'Brien and SPS. O'Brien might've made it through the other side now that an outside player has some use.
Accepting a lot of players as salary cap filler couldn't have been good for the culture either. You've got guys on big money stuck in the VFL playing out their contracts and you aren't forming a base to work with in the actual AFL side.
Really after nailing that first draft with Weitering, McKay and Curnow the plan should've been to add a couple of really solid midfielders to go around Cripps and have the base for the next 10 years. Instead it took being bad enough to get Walsh and until now to get Hewett and Cerra, wasting a lot of time with a list without the right foundations.
So the initial plan was great but Sos probably got fairly carried away chasing more home run picks.
SOS nailed 2015, that is the draft that has us where we are (Weitering, McKay, Curnow) he also had some bad drafts like 2016 (SPS) and 2017 (Dow and Obrien).
Overall he was an OK list manager, not amazing, but not the train wreck people make him out to be.
Overall he was an OK list manager, not amazing, but not the train wreck people make him out to be.
The issue for SOS is that inside mids are always the most dependable bust proof picks. Did they really need Ollie Wines who would have been a safer pick than Plowman? They already had Ward, Coniglo, Trealor, Shiels, Greene, Tyson, Whitfield, Smith. He took what he thought was the best HFF and HBF after taking the stand out No1 pick.
It is still a problem for GWS where their Midfield is stacked with so many Inside mids
- Apr 20, 2006
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We needed a total rebuild and SOS managed to get 11 first rounders in his 5 seasons. He also managed to bring in players who were taken 4,5,6 and 13 in the draft just two years earlier and another pick 3 from three years earlier. He also created a huge amount of cap space where we could offer big money to attract FA’s and recruits.
I understand people questioning his ability to identify talent but his actual list management was fine. About the only thing that I questioned was picking so many mids who aren’t great runners but that’s about it.
I think his list management, although not perfect, is nearly as good as any. His talent identification I’d say is not amazing.
I understand people questioning his ability to identify talent but his actual list management was fine. About the only thing that I questioned was picking so many mids who aren’t great runners but that’s about it.
I think his list management, although not perfect, is nearly as good as any. His talent identification I’d say is not amazing.
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Looking back today. Plowman, LOB we’re wind imo.
Interestingly the two teams he did his work at our now in the prelim finals.
Obviously his work at GWS was some time ago but he laid the ground work for both them and Carlton.
Obviously his work at GWS was some time ago but he laid the ground work for both them and Carlton.
LanceRomance
Brownlow Medallist
- Sep 25, 2013
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SOS has a very long term view on list management.
Under his guidance, Saints can be competing for a flag in 2030.
- Apr 20, 2006
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- 12,222
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I was having a discussion with a mate the other day About how 2/3 of AFL teams lists have been contending or are looking close to over the last few years.
It would be interesting to see how many list managers atm haven’t been part of building a contending list.
It would be interesting to see how many list managers atm haven’t been part of building a contending list.
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