The 2017 Rolling All-Australian Thread

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Docherty is a clear lock in the AA team at this stage - having said that, you are entitled to your opinion.

Who comes out for him?

I do think Docherty is having a very good season.

 

[Damon_3388]

Who comes out for him?

Easy, Zac Williams.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

 

[cryptor]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

Mitchell far too consistent. Needs to have the occasional shit game to highlight just how good his best is.

 

[deflated]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

Completely different types of players? 2/3rds of Zorko's disposals are by foot and he's at the top end for I50's compared to Mitchell's mountain of handballs. Zorko's also tied with Mitchell in clearances, which is a pretty key stat for someone in Mitchell's role and surprisingly good for Zorko and unexpected given what he does.

 

[cotter101]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

Statistical monsters? Have you watched Zorko this year?

 

[Checkered]

There's an unfair stigma around Mitchell that he doesn't do damage. I've got no doubt he woukd be very good in a more outside role too but he is elite on the inside so that's where he stays and unfortunately the stigma remains.

Zorko on the other hand is easily our most damaging player. Go watch the first quarter of the Freo game if you want to see how well he can tear a game apart. I don't think anyone who watches him thinks he racks up hollow stats or tries to pad his numbers. Should be a lock for the 22 at this stage.

 

[Tippett2Goal]

There's an unfair stigma around Mitchell that he doesn't do damage. I've got no doubt he woukd be very good in a more outside role too but he is elite on the inside so that's where he stays and unfortunately the stigma remains.

Zorko on the other hand is easily our most damaging player. Go watch the first quarter of the Freo game if you want to see how well he can tear a game apart. I don't think anyone who watches him thinks he racks up hollow stats or tries to pad his numbers. Should be a lock for the 22 at this stage.

Nah, we tried him there he wasn't great
But he is exceptional in close, and is great defensively too.

 

[Coops93]

Nah, we tried him there he wasn't great
But he is exceptional in close, and is great defensively too.

Doesn't really have the foot skill or pace to be an outside player.

 

[buddy2fernando]

Titch hasn't had a poor game this year. Ultra consistent and has literally carried us on his shoulders. That said I agree he isn't as damaging with his possessions as others are but that's not his game and purely on consistency I would have him in the side thus far.

 

[Forward Press]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

Zorko has kicked 18 goals and Mitchell 4.

It would be easier to fit him onto a HFF and Mitchell is undoubtedly a midfielder jostling with so many others for a spot.

 

[Milanista28]

Docherty is easily a lock for me tied with Yeo as first picked in defense (smalls), Has Laird and Williams covered by a street.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Titch hasn't had a poor game this year. Ultra consistent and has literally carried us on his shoulders. That said I agree he isn't as damaging with his possessions as others are but that's not his game and purely on consistency I would have him in the side thus far.

Mitchell will be an interesting case. Lachie Neale basically did the same thing last year in an equally shit team, and didn't get selected.

Tom has a few more touches overall, but less clearances, less contested possessions, and doesn't make up for that with extra goals/goal assists.

 

[Baird]

FB: J. Lever, A. Rance, R. Laird
HB: Z. Williams, M. Hurley, E. Yeo
C: J. Kelly, P. Dangerfield, Z. Merrett
HF: L. Franklin, J. Daniher, T. Greene
FF: E. Betts, J. Cameron, R. Gray
R: M. Kruezer, D. Martin, S. Pendlebury
IC: J. Kennedy (Syd), J. Selwood, G. Ablett, D. Zorko

Switch Lever and Williams for Docherty and Howe and this is spot on, imo

 

[juss]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

You can see when you watch them, Zorko is more damaging. T Mitchell does a heap of inside work, but Zorko can be a game breaker.

 

[Scotland]

Not taking sides but what separates zorko from tom mitchell? Both are statistical monsters in shit teams. Yet zorko gets all the love??

Really? Not similar at all. Zorko plays with Rockliff and could easily play alongside Mitchell.

Zorko 225 kicks, 103 handballs, 18 goals, 74 clearances, 96 tackles, 67 I50s, 139/185 contested/uncontested possies
Mitchell 180 kicks, 281 handballs, 4 goals, 74 clearances, 91 tackles, 51 I50s, 191/279 contested/uncontested possies

Mitchell is 130 ahead on disposals for the year but he doesn't do anything with it. He does his role well, but 35 vs 25 touches a game definitely overstates his impact. He gets a more uncontested ball and a lot more handballs, which is not really what you want. They are even for clearances and tackles and Mitchell is 4 ahead per game on contested possies, but Zorko is far more damaging. He kicks the ball more, kicks the ball long and kicks goals.

For someone with Mitchell's attributes I'd want to see him in the top couple for clearances in the comp to be in the AA frame. He's currently 15th, and his contested:uncontested ratio is 1:1.5. Patrick Cripps is 1.15:1, Cunnington 1.35:1, 1.1:1. This is where Mitchell should be. Similar to Matt Priddis, if he gets 20+ uncontested possessions then big whoop - he's not a damaging outside player. If he's getting his hands to it at the bottom of every pack and farming it out then he's damaging in his own way.

 

[pulpdriver]

FB: J. Lever, A. Rance, R. Laird
HB: Z. Williams, M. Hurley, E. Yeo
C: J. Kelly, P. Dangerfield, Z. Merrett
HF: L. Franklin, J. Daniher, T. Greene
FF: E. Betts, J. Cameron, R. Gray
R: M. Kruezer, D. Martin, S. Pendlebury
IC: J. Kennedy (Syd), J. Selwood, G. Ablett, D. Zorko

Replace Williams with Docherty and this is pretty much spot on.

 

[cryptor]

Mitchell is 130 ahead on disposals for the year but he doesn't do anything with it.

Completely lazy and inaccurate statement. You obviously haven't watched much of him this year. Don't bother lying and saying you have. No one bothers watching an opposition player that closely or often.

 

[Scotland]

Fun fact: Patrick Dangerfield has 23 goals this season. The 9 other players in the top 10 for disposals in the comp have 29 between them with a high of 7 (Marc Murphy).

Of the top 10 for kicks Martin and Zorko have 18 goals with no one else in double figures. 4 of the 10 are defenders, though.

Martin, Dangerfield, Zorko are 1, 2, 5 for I50s. Martin and Dangerfield are 1 and 5 for contested possessions.

If these aren't your first couple if mids picked you're doing it wrong.

 

[Scotland]

Completely lazy and inaccurate statement. You obviously haven't watched much of him this year. Don't bother lying and saying you have. No one bothers watching an opposition player that closely or often.

LOL, typical Hawthorn floggo.

Did you miss this bit? It was quite literally the next sentence.

He does his role well, but 35 vs 25 touches a game definitely overstates his impact.

If Mitchell was damaging with the ball and getting 35 touches a game he'd be the greatest midfielder in history. But he isn't, so he isn't. Even Gary Ablett Jr who is one of the best mids of all time gets junk possessions in his 25-30 a game.

Would you seriously not sacrifice 5 or 6 handballs a game if it meant he was a goal a game player?

Be dismissive and sanctimonious if you feel like it, but you haven't meaningfully refuted anything I said. Mitchell is 4th in the comp for contested ball. Good on him, that's his go. He's in a cluster of guys who all get around 14/15 a game. But he's still outside the top 10 for clearances. He's also 4th in the comp for uncontested ball, and comfortably the least damaging of the top 10.

I couldn't give a shit if Mitchell gets 28 or 30 or 35 touches a game because past about 15-20 good ones the rest don't mean anything. He can get as many 1-2 handballs as he wants. Zorko, the guy he was for some reason compared to, gets just as many clearances and almost as much contested ball, but when he has the ball in space he hurts you - yet people (hai David King) don't rate him for not getting 30 touches a game.

 

[calyam]

Replace Williams with Docherty and this is pretty much spot on.

Switch Lever and Williams for Docherty and Howe and this is spot on, imo

Docherty and Howe have obviously had great seasons. Both were in my side until I eventually switched them out for Williams and Lever, respectively. This may reflect the fact that I have watched more of Adelaide and GWS this season but I think both Lever and Williams have been outstanding in their roles and are key contributors to their team's success. Much the same could and has been said of Docherty and Howe though.

Nevertheless, I'm comfortable with my team at the minute. Williams and Lever though would be two of the positions that could certainty change in the coming weeks. Ablett is probably another who could slip out if he was to miss another game or have a poor performance.

 

[cryptor]

LOL, typical Hawthorn floggo.

Did you miss this bit? It was quite literally the next sentence.



If Mitchell was damaging with the ball and getting 35 touches a game he'd be the greatest midfielder in history. But he isn't, so he isn't. Even Gary Ablett Jr who is one of the best mids of all time gets junk possessions in his 25-30 a game.

Would you seriously not sacrifice 5 or 6 handballs a game if it meant he was a goal a game player?

Be dismissive and sanctimonious if you feel like it, but you haven't meaningfully refuted anything I said. Mitchell is 4th in the comp for contested ball. Good on him, that's his go. He's in a cluster of guys who all get around 14/15 a game. But he's still outside the top 10 for clearances. He's also 4th in the comp for uncontested ball, and comfortably the least damaging of the top 10.

I couldn't give a shit if Mitchell gets 28 or 30 or 35 touches a game because past about 15-20 good ones the rest don't mean anything. He can get as many 1-2 handballs as he wants. Zorko, the guy he was for some reason compared to, gets just as many clearances and almost as much contested ball, but when he has the ball in space he hurts you - yet people (hai David King) don't rate him for not getting 30 touches a game.

Why would I need to "meaningfully refute" what you said? You haven't shown what you've said to be meaningfully accurate.

 

[Scotland]

Why would I need to "meaningfully refute" what you said? You haven't shown what you've said to be meaningfully accurate.

So I've stated that his contested to uncontested possession ratio is low, his kick to handball ratio is low, he doesn't kick many goals, he's not in the top handful of players in the comp for clearances and that his disposals on the outside aren't damaging. Everything but the last claim is pretty objective.

And I contributed comparative stats and observations of Zorko.

Your response is:

Completely lazy and inaccurate statement. You obviously haven't watched much of him this year.
Don't bother lying and saying you have. No one bothers watching an opposition player that closely or often.

 

[TooBlue14]

Who comes out for him?

I do think Docherty is having a very good season.

Any of them as he's better than all defenders except the KP ones in Hurley and rance.

 

[cryptor]

So I've stated that his contested to uncontested possession ratio is low, his kick to handball ratio is low, he doesn't kick many goals, he's not in the top handful of players in the comp for clearances and that his disposals on the outside aren't damaging. Everything but the last claim is pretty objective.

And I contributed comparative stats and observations of Zorko.

Your response is:

Exactly. Just a list of basic stats and your interpretation of them. Stats should support an analysis, not be the basis of one. By all means criticize him and as many other Hawthorn players as you like. But don't expect not to be called out when you're just going to trot out the same basic crap that came out a while ago when the media lent on a low "metres gained" stat as a basis for him not being impactful (the high "assisted metres gained" stat refuted that).