Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

(Log in to remove this ad.)

ShanDog

Moderator
Aug 12, 2012
18,263
34,340
sv_cheats 1
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Edmonton Oilers
When asked, the senator said “it’s exempt, it’s not in the woman. She is not pregnant”

But it is, according to those anti-choice people a life, is it not?.

That sounds like seeking to control reproductive rights and women.
I don't know what senator you're talking about or what the context of those comments are. It seems I am talking about abortion in general and others are referring specifically to Alabama. I don't like what they've done in Alabama. It doesn't make much pragmatic sense.
 

samFFC

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 1, 2013
12,023
8,872
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fulham, 76ers, Cubs, Bills
Effectively the same. What are the substantial differences that necessitate removing a terminated but viable foetus over a live viable one, in the sole interests of a mother’s health, but not at a risk to her life?
The procedures are not the same
The frequency of doing them is not the same
They are not equivalent
 

its free real estate

fyfe > dangerfield
Jul 30, 2018
8,214
10,050
AFL Club
Fremantle
The procedures are not the same
The frequency of doing them is not the same
They are not equivalent
I never said they were exactly the same.

Do they both involve surgery? What risks to a mother’s health are alleviated by one form of surgery over another. Are these risks worth the cost of a viable human?
 

samFFC

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 1, 2013
12,023
8,872
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fulham, 76ers, Cubs, Bills
I never said they were exactly the same.

Do they both involve surgery? What risks to a mother’s health are alleviated by one form of surgery over another. Are these risks worth the cost of a viable human?
An arthroscopy is not the same as a C-Section is not the same as open heart surgery.
Not all surgery is the same. So no they shouldn't be compared.
 

ShanDog

Moderator
Aug 12, 2012
18,263
34,340
sv_cheats 1
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Edmonton Oilers
Can you find a more likely motivation with more evidence behind it?
Numerous. Why do you jump to the most malevolent of possible motivations as the likely culprit? This thinking is a major part of why discussion of anything difficult becomes shit so quickly and so often - assign the worse of possible motivations on your adversary and make not only their argument but them the bad guy. It's crap.
 

Chief

Admin
Dec 1, 1999
78,133
47,981
Brisbane
AFL Club
Carlton
Numerous. Why do you jump to the most malevolent of possible motivations as the likely culprit? This thinking is a major part of why discussion of anything difficult becomes **** so quickly and so often - assign the worse of possible motivations on your adversary and make not only their argument but them the bad guy. It's crap.
Because I can’t find any other motivation.

Saving lives? Treating each life as sacred? Even if you call a mass of cells “life”, they execute people in Alabama.

It’s about control.
 

ShanDog

Moderator
Aug 12, 2012
18,263
34,340
sv_cheats 1
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Edmonton Oilers
Because I can’t find any other motivation.

Saving lives? Treating each life as sacred? Even if you call a mass of cells “life”, they execute people in Alabama.

It’s about control.
You don't want to. The reality is that not everyone who is against abortion is male for starters. Do the females against it want to control women's reproduction? To what end and why? Some attribute their position to religion, sure. Others just pure principle.

Anyone who supports the death penalty and is pro-life is a hypocrite IMO. Won't argue there.
 

Chief

Admin
Dec 1, 1999
78,133
47,981
Brisbane
AFL Club
Carlton
You don't want to. The reality is that not everyone who is against abortion is male for starters. Do the females against it want to control women's reproduction? To what end and why? Some attribute their position to religion, sure. Others just pure principle.

Anyone who supports the death penalty and is pro-life is a hypocrite IMO. Won't argue there.
I’m talking about Alabama.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

ShanDog

Moderator
Aug 12, 2012
18,263
34,340
sv_cheats 1
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Edmonton Oilers
What is your definition of life?
It wouldn't stray from any scientific definition. I think if we're being honest with ourselves, you can't argue that as soon as a fertilised egg starts splitting the cells and multiplying that isn't life. It's just reality.

But that's not the real question. The real question is: at what point do we consider a growing baby inside the womb a person with the same Universal rights as everyone else? That's the tricky one. On one side you have the extreme position of Alabama which you can defend in principle but at the expense of sense and pragmatism. On the other hand we've got NY who open the door for disregarding the rights of a baby that can easily live outside the womb (with support) for very flimsy reasons.

Somewhere between these two makes sense.
 
Last edited:

its free real estate

fyfe > dangerfield
Jul 30, 2018
8,214
10,050
AFL Club
Fremantle
An arthroscopy is not the same as a C-Section is not the same as open heart surgery.
Not all surgery is the same. So no they shouldn't be compared.
I know those surgeries aren’t the same, but you’re not telling what is the difference between two that both involve removing a body from another larger body.
 

ShanDog

Moderator
Aug 12, 2012
18,263
34,340
sv_cheats 1
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Edmonton Oilers
The evidence is right there.

Conservative religious people claiming it’s about the sanctity of life when it clearly isn’t given their other actions.
There is the chance they aren't internally consistent through sheer ignorance. In fact I'd say it's the most likely scenario. But regardless, the point I'm making is that controlling women (or controlling reproduction) is a massive accusation that requires similarly big evidence. Is the mandatory draft registration in the US some big conspiracy to control men too? People jump to the most nefarious of possible explanations too often as I said before. Especially when there's no attempt to articulate what the conspiracy is with any sort of detail.
 

Chief

Admin
Dec 1, 1999
78,133
47,981
Brisbane
AFL Club
Carlton
There is the chance they aren't internally consistent through sheer ignorance. In fact I'd say it's the most likely scenario. But regardless, the point I'm making is that controlling women (or controlling reproduction) is a massive accusation that requires similarly big evidence. Is the mandatory draft registration in the US some big conspiracy to control men too? People jump to the most nefarious of possible explanations too often as I said before. Especially when there's no attempt to articulate what the conspiracy is with any sort of detail.
Yes mandatory draft was aimed at making men do what the government wanted them to do. Controlling their labour.

I think you’re twisting yourself in knots trying to avoid the obvious: it’s not about saving the foetus so it can grow into a human, it’s about control.

No doubt that’s not the aim of some people, but it's the aim when governments get into it.

Why is it a surprise that many US states are schizophrenic on the issue of "the sanctity of life"? Some politicians are of course appealing to emotional religious people to stay in power and feather their own nests. Others are emotional religious people who can't handle the thought of a female having a choice about reproduction.

Females, it seems, cannot be trusted with the responsibility of deciding whether to bring a life into the world, but politicians can be trusted with the responsibility of removing life from the world.

The more publicly pious the politician, the more untrustworthy.

Roy Moore, Alabama hero:
https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/30912-beware-pious-politicians-the-moral-of-immoral-roy-moore

It's bigoted religious bullshit - whether it's a man or a woman exercising power.
 

Mr_Nyah

All Australian
Dec 7, 2011
905
2,669
Wentz Wagon
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Going back -

* Control.

* Over women.

* As evidenced by the disregard for fertilized embryos.

* As evidenced by the death penalty.
How does a State having the death penalty have anything to do with abortion? Executing an unborn child doesn't seem comparable to executing someone who has had a fair chance at life and has committed egregious crimes against other innocent people. You want to make other arguments in favour of abortion, sure go ahead, but you can't argue with a straight face that killing an unborn child is the same as executing a violent and dangerous criminal.
 

Chief

Admin
Dec 1, 1999
78,133
47,981
Brisbane
AFL Club
Carlton
How does a State having the death penalty have anything to do with abortion? Executing an unborn child doesn't seem comparable to executing someone who has had a fair chance at life and has committed egregious crimes against other innocent people. You want to make other arguments in favour of abortion, sure go ahead, but you can't argue with a straight face that killing an unborn child is the same as executing a violent and dangerous criminal.
You have a problem when the argument is framed as:

“The Legislature has spoken,” she said. “It underscores the sanctity of life the people of Alabama value so highly.”

http://time.com/5592944/alabama-governor-abortion-ban-comments/
 

Mr_Nyah

All Australian
Dec 7, 2011
905
2,669
Wentz Wagon
AFL Club
North Melbourne
You have a problem when the argument is framed as:

“The Legislature has spoken,” she said. “It underscores the sanctity of life the people of Alabama value so highly.”

http://time.com/5592944/alabama-governor-abortion-ban-comments/
Ok, that doesn't really address my point though, does it. My point is not that they didn't base their legislature on the sanctity of life, my point is that banning abortion and permitting the death penalty aren't contradictory.

Let me put it this way: forget what the legislature is, how would you personally justify arguing that executing, let's say, a murderer, is completely the same as aborting an unborn child? I'm not being facetious by the way, nor am I trying to tie you in loops, I'm genuinely interested in your answer.
 

Top Bottom