The Disillusioned Thread

[Baltimore Jack]

So this is in fact just another anti-Bucks thread disguised as something else

 

[tommyv49]

Unpopular opinion here but I don't think Jesse White was the abject failure that others made him out to be. Due to our injuries he was barely able to play the role in which we recruited him for yet adapted and performed quite well at times as a second ruck. He takes a defender who otherwise would be double or triple teaming Trav and will be better in a more settled forward line structure.
.

Can't agree with this one mate, 20 goals is not enough for a fwd that has little to no impact anywhere else on the ground. Everyone can see the talent he has, maybe with Reid back he can improve a bit, but im not confident.

 

[Hardas]

Good thread! Will try to contribute something after schoolin' my students over here.

 

[Mateyman]

I still don't understand why spending a spot on Lynch is worse than picking up a dud late in the draft. Greenwood is exactly what we need as well

 

[Scodog10]

I 100% endorse the statements of the OP!

The most basic point of the trade period is to IMPROVE your list yet Collingwood's focus of late when identifying established talent appears to be to MAINTAIN the list.

Any prospective move on Greenwood works because Adams/ JT must step in to replace Ball whereas Greenwood as a defensive mid (not tagger) is an upgrade on Caff.

This brings me to Varcoe, how exactly is it that he improves our list? What is it about him that says this guy will be a walk up start for us and play a part in taking us forward? He is a clear downgrade on Lumumba with his lack of size, competitiveness and durability. If you can't identify someone to clearly improve your list that's ok step away from the trade table and back yourself in at the draft to find a runner.

From there demand a guy like Seedsman to do as Maxy said and "****ing step up!". We will never get back to the top by replacing average footballers with very average footballers. I've already had my faith in the coaching group shattered and a move on Varcoe will unfortunately shatter my perceptions of the list management team as well...

 

[cleomenes]

The sooner the unpleasantness that is trade time is over the better. I hate seeing speculation about our players leaving or wanting to.
As for the need for an administrative cleanout: why? Any organization needs competent administration, but the execution end of it depends on the front line bodies. It's the players and their capacity to get on the field that decide the fate of the club in any particular year. Great players make great coaches, not the other way round. The administration is there to keep the finances in order, and assure renewal of the player list, within the rules of the competition. If they are not making waves, then they are probably doing their jobs and should be left to get on with them. We can focus on the merits or otherwise of the players. Even with them, it is only worthwhile to focus on what they can do. Bemoaning the depth of Sidebottom's kicking, for instance, is utterly pointless. He can only kick as far as he can. Let's support rather than whinge.

 

[Swooop]

A winning team is virtually always labelled a happy team, great club, great coach, savvy recruiting manager, lots of star players etc etc

A losing team is virtually always labelled a team with player conflicts, a coach who lacks ideas and match day awareness, bickering, poor recruiting etc etc

We have transformed from one to the other last year or two.

So, it's natural the focus goes on the quality of players, Buckley, perhaps Ed and Pert, recruiting decisions etc.

But had we had our best 22 out there, or even just 1-2 missing here and there, we would be a much more winning team.

With much less ( in my view) misplaced scrutiny.

As soon as you bring in 3-4 reserve type players you're in deep shit - let alone the 6-10 we sometimes trotted out like lambs to the slaughter.

I don't get the dogma that talking about injuries is making excuses - of course multiple injuries torpedo your chances, missing your top experienced players.

What we really need to do is work out why we've had so many of these injuries - is it purely bad luck or are there some training issues that need to be identified and addressed.

 

[tommyv49]

What we really need to do is work out why we've had so many of these injuries - is it purely bad luck or are there some training issues that need to be identified and addressed.

Spot on mate.
But surely we are due for some better luck this year.

 

[Wooljay]

They cost a spot on a list

Which would be taken by a pick in the last 2 rounds? Look at all the superstars we've picked in those rounds and tell me it isn't worth the low risk.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I don't get the dogma that talking about injuries is making excuses - of course multiple injuries torpedo your chances, missing your top experienced players.

As Leigh Matthews often says "its not an excuse, its a reason"

 

[Jasper84]

Would be people still bemoan the club trading out certain players if the ball had bounced the other way and st Kilda won the grand final?

 

[76woodenspooners]

Good thread! Will try to contribute something after schoolin' my students over here.

Have you been doing your bit to "Footify" the Chinese?

 

[Hardas]

I disagree with the OP in regard to the club. Now is not the time to start chopping and changing internally and at the top (pres, admin, etc). In the recent past I may have thought otherwise, but we do not need more instability at the moment.
The events of the last two days, with the Doggies imploding, and us holding a straight line over Beams, have emphasised the importance of a strong and united club. I'm not sure we are exactly that - yet - but we are starting to sound like it, at least externally. The signs are there.
There is also currently a lot of turmoil in the AFL with regard to senior coaches, and I am concerned we will lose one of our senior assistants. Sure, they are entitled to take up a better offer, but we have had great stability in that area (with some exceptions), and loyalty shown by and to Bucks in regards to his assistants, which I see as a massive positive.
Anyway, its early morning, and I am still bouyed by yesterday's events and our handling of the Beams saga. It might also be a catalyst to generate a stronger spirit amongst the playing group. If we, the fan base, hurt when Dayne announced he wanted to leave, their hurt would have been greater. And for the players to then see the club play this out with dignity and respect - it must have a positive impact at the Westpac Centre.
I know I could not have been prouder. Its been a terrific effort by the Pies, very classy.

I'm pretty much with this - just like to see this week be the norm in regards to club's public responses: clear and consistent.

As for who I want to see:
Off-season - largely, Hine, Rendell (or Pert, if needed);
In-season - largely, Bucks, Tapping, McCrae (all things football) or Davoren (face the press on injuries regularly please);
Mostly off-stage: Eddie, Eade etc. (I love Eddie, but want to see less of him in the public eye as a spokesperson for the club; and would prefer Eade to be a backroom boy as much as possible).

 

[Hardas]

Have you been doing your bit to "Footify" the Chinese?

I actually show my students footage, as part of my brief is to introduce them to Australian culture, - fair to say, they think we're mad playing that sport.

 

[76woodenspooners]

What we really need to do is work out why we've had so many of these injuries - is it purely bad luck or are there some training issues that need to be identified and addressed.

There's some good clues about what the problems were, and what action the club has taken to address them in this thread here

 

[Hardas]

Its great that there is still so much optimism, I just don't see it. I can't recall a team ever losing as many mid 20s- early 20s premiership players as we have. I guess in that way I can't say that it is definitely going to end up bad, but my opinion is that it will.
I did a glance down of our list, and the only guys I think have any hope of being top 50ish players in the comp in the next 2-3 years are Pendles, Cloke, Sidebottom, Swan, Reid and Elliott. That's when they have good years. There is way to big of a gap between these guys and the next line and this is on the recruiters and the coaching staff. They must have known that Maxwell would leave soon and that we would be left with an extraordinarily young backline. Given Reid is expected to play forward, we have guys like Brown, Toovey and Goldsack as our "veterans" down back. They all lack class, composure, good disposal and a steady hand. And they are the leaders/experienced guys back there.
As for Eddie, who couldn't understand the love and loyalty shown towards him? But there comes a time when change is needed, especially when the leader is so ever-present and vocal. I don't think we have the need for someone to keep promoting us anymore. Eddie has made us relevant, but now he is making us stale. My hope is that he will move aside without any kind of coup or challenge, but I think it's unlikely.

Let him go for one more flag in 2016/7 then pass it on.
As for the talent level, I think several of the picks from the last two years will push up fairly quickly and we have two very promising rucks on the improve - we've been very unlucky with 35 and 39 this year, no doubt.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I dont usually like to post such negative stuff, but with us being rumoured to be after Varcoe and Greenwood, even after seeing what NQR pickups like White, Lynch and Young are actually worth, it makes me think that the people in charge have lost the plot.
Why do we keep trying to pick up role players while losing stars?

Any player we recruit has to fill the following criteria ... Even before we decide that we want them.

It's a very small pool, and there are very few players who fit these criteria and capture the imagination of the supporter base ...

- Fit within the salary cap
- Are old enough to to make a reasonable contribution to the 22
- Want to leave their existing club to come to Collingwood
- Existing club wants to let them go

 

[Hardas]

I 100% endorse the statements of the OP!

The most basic point of the trade period is to IMPROVE your list yet Collingwood's focus of late when identifying established talent appears to be to MAINTAIN the list.
Any prospective move on Greenwood works because Adams/ JT must step in to replace Ball whereas Greenwood as a defensive mid (not tagger) is an upgrade on Caff.
This brings me to Varcoe, how exactly is it that he improves our list? What is it about him that says this guy will be a walk up start for us and play a part in taking us forward? He is a clear downgrade on Lumumba with his lack of size, competitiveness and durability. If you can't identify someone to clearly improve your list that's ok step away from the trade table and back yourself in at the draft to find a runner.
From there demand a guy like Seedsman to do as Maxy said and "******* step up!". We will never get back to the top by replacing average footballers with very average footballers. I've already had my faith in the coaching group shattered and a move on Varcoe will unfortunately shatter my perceptions of the list management team as well...

Overall, replace the word 'shattered' with 'dented' and I'm with you. I'm unimpressed with the move for Varcoe, with many off us seemingly shrugging our shoulders and thinking, 'Ah well, H wasn't doing all that much anyway.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I dont usually like to post such negative stuff, but with us being rumoured to be after Varcoe and Greenwood, even after seeing what NQR pickups like White, Lynch and Young are actually worth, it makes me think that the people in charge have lost the plot.
Why do we keep trying to pick up role players while losing stars?
The quality of our list has been decimated and those talking about unproven young talent like they are superstars (Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams etc) are ignoring the fact that these guys are likely to never make A grade status, let alone become 200 game players. The simple reality is more young draftees dont make it, than do.

Our strategy has been poor, and in my opinion, if this all goes pear shaped and we back down on the Beams trade, and give him to Brisbane, it is time for change. Not just Buckley either, IM talking a sweep through starting with Eddie. Not that I haven't loved his efforts, but there is a time to move aside and that time is now. What better way to give our club a fresh new identity than by installing new leadership from the top? It seems Pert is not liked by the players. Lose him too. He comes across as far too corporate for a role as the head of a football club.

I don't know if others feel it too, but Collingwood as a club, as a brand, it just feels stale. I'm sick of being so publicised and wish we could just be a quiet bohemoth looking after our own backyard.

We are relying too much on picks to become good. Senior players brought to our club are basically rubbish.

 

[DNine]

I dont usually like to post such negative stuff, but with us being rumoured to be after Varcoe and Greenwood, even after seeing what NQR pickups like White, Lynch and Young are actually worth, it makes me think that the people in charge have lost the plot.
Why do we keep trying to pick up role players while losing stars?
The quality of our list has been decimated and those talking about unproven young talent like they are superstars (Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Seedsman, Williams etc) are ignoring the fact that these guys are likely to never make A grade status, let alone become 200 game players. The simple reality is more young draftees dont make it, than do.

Our strategy has been poor, and in my opinion, if this all goes pear shaped and we back down on the Beams trade, and give him to Brisbane, it is time for change. Not just Buckley either, IM talking a sweep through starting with Eddie. Not that I haven't loved his efforts, but there is a time to move aside and that time is now. What better way to give our club a fresh new identity than by installing new leadership from the top? It seems Pert is not liked by the players. Lose him too. He comes across as far too corporate for a role as the head of a football club.

I don't know if others feel it too, but Collingwood as a club, as a brand, it just feels stale. I'm sick of being so publicised and wish we could just be a quiet bohemoth looking after our own backyard.

Wow, are you asking us, or telling us. You seem to be getting inspired into negativity by rumours. That is your first mistake. How about waiting to see what ACTUALLY happens, not what you HEARD might be happen.

NQR pickups that are role players like Lynch, Young didn't cost us anything apart from there pay packet. Your right they are not setting the world on fire. But given the cost to us going out of the club, it was well worth it. White was a trade. Sure, he isn't Jaryd Roughead, but as a THIRD tall, who can go through the ruck, I would choose him hands down than Premiership player Leigh Brown. He was a cult favourite without being even as consistent as White. White and pick 6 (Matt Scharenberg), cost us 11 (Dom Sheed), 31 (Malcom Karpany) and 49 (Dylan Main). That is basically gaining White for nothing.

You deal with our young kids like they are all on an equal level. Kennedy and Broomhead are our top picks. They will be 200 game players and there is no doubt in a lot of supporters that watch the VFL regularly. Thomas and Williams are upgrade rookies. If other sides could get a hold of these two players for a rookie pick, 17 teams would be lining up out the door to do so. They have shown plenty to suggest that they could make it. Seedsman was not a rookie, but was a very late pick 76.

Your statement we are losing our stars is just plain wrong. Who? Wellingham, who has not fired a shot at West Coast we got Ben Kennedy pick 19 for him. The embarrassment that is Dale Thomas, who got smashed by Tom Langdon pick 65, we got Nathan Freeman Pick 10 for him, and cut A SHIT LOAD of cash off our salary cap. Chris Dawes who has a similar output than Jesse White at Melbourne, where he is either a first or second tall forward, we got pick 20 who we used on Tim Broomhead, and I am excited about what he will give us in years to come. Heath Shaw who was a disruptive influence, but I will give you the fact that he is a loss but we got Taylor Adams who at least plays the team game, and will get better as time goes on.

And if your in the group that hate that the Pies delisting Jolly, Krakouer and Didak, they were finished. They were old, and no other club picked them up.

So I disagree that the club has lost the plot when it comes to list management so far.

Lumumba has become a nut job, and we may get Varcoe for him. Good swap I would of thought. I watched the North V Geelong game the other day, and it gave me the opportunity to watch Varcoe and Greenwood. They both impressed me greatly. Lumumba had me mighty pissed off when he was walking around in the backline while teams were kicking goals against us in the last few games when we needed him to step up when others went down.

Beams we will get compensated for him, or we keep him. I suggest the former will happen. The compensation will be from the Suns I believe. Greenwood goes three quarters of the way there. The other quarter, I think we will get there. I think Beams may well be a little over rated by Collingwood fans.

I am totally against your OP, I think we are in good hands. What were you saying in 04 and 05 after we made to GF's and slipped right away? Were you saying then how we lost the plot? Buckley is going through a dip after a similar success period in 10, 11, but he was able to get a finals finish out of the side in the two proceeding years in 12 & 13, and now have dropped out. Next year, I reckon we will make finals again, and in 16 we will be strong again.

 

[DNine]

We are relying too much on picks to become good. Senior players brought to our club are basically rubbish.

No they are not rubbish. Clinton Young when at Hawthorn, actually was selected in their Grand Final side. White was making Sydney's side, but when they come to the Pies, all of a sudden they are duds that would not make the top teams side. It is ridiculous to suggest that. Lynch was pretty hopeless, but he did break his leg this year, and found it hard to make the side with White doing o.k. Couldn't fit them both in. And so what, he cost us nothing. Armstrong actually exceeded my expectations. I thought he was going to be a real dud, and when he played seniors, he was actually servicable. Better than Toovey, who was only 64.6% effective on average to Armstrongs 82.3% effective. Toovey had a stinker of a year I reckon.

The older players at our club are Malthouse selected. So they are who we rely on. Travis Cloke, Ben Reid, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Elliott and the like. We rely on them to be great. We don't rely on younger players yet, that is why they are playing in the VFL and not setting your world on fire. All teams rely on continual development. If Hawks young kids suddenly be failures, they too will drop right away as soon as the older Hawks go. We are not alone.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Wow, are you asking us, or telling us. You seem to be getting inspired into negativity by rumours. That is your first mistake. How about waiting to see what ACTUALLY happens, not what you HEARD might be happen.

NQR pickups that are role players like Lynch, Young didn't cost us anything apart from there pay packet. Your right they are not setting the world on fire. But given the cost to us going out of the club, it was well worth it. White was a trade. Sure, he isn't Jaryd Roughead, but as a THIRD tall, who can go through the ruck, I would choose him hands down than Premiership player Leigh Brown. He was a cult favourite without being even as consistent as White. White and pick 6 (Matt Scharenberg), cost us 11 (Dom Sheed), 31 (Malcom Karpany) and 49 (Dylan Main). That is basically gaining White for nothing.

You deal with our young kids like they are all on an equal level. Kennedy and Broomhead are our top picks. They will be 200 game players and there is no doubt in a lot of supporters that watch the VFL regularly. Thomas and Williams are upgrade rookies. If other sides could get a hold of these two players for a rookie pick, 17 teams would be lining up out the door to do so. They have shown plenty to suggest that they could make it. Seedsman was not a rookie, but was a very late pick 76.

Your statement we are losing our stars is just plain wrong. Who? Wellingham, who has not fired a shot at West Coast we got Ben Kennedy pick 19 for him. The embarrassment that is Dale Thomas, who got smashed by Tom Langdon pick 65, we got Nathan Freeman Pick 10 for him, and cut A SHIT LOAD of cash off our salary cap. Chris Dawes who has a similar output than Jesse White at Melbourne, where he is either a first or second tall forward, we got pick 20 who we used on Tim Broomhead, and I am excited about what he will give us in years to come. Heath Shaw who was a disruptive influence, but I will give you the fact that he is a loss but we got Taylor Adams who at least plays the team game, and will get better as time goes on.

And if your in the group that hate that the Pies delisting Jolly, Krakouer and Didak, they were finished. They were old, and no other club picked them up.

So I disagree that the club has lost the plot when it comes to list management so far.

Lumumba has become a nut job, and we may get Varcoe for him. Good swap I would of thought. I watched the North V Geelong game the other day, and it gave me the opportunity to watch Varcoe and Greenwood. They both impressed me greatly. Lumumba had me mighty pissed off when he was walking around in the backline while teams were kicking goals against us in the last few games when we needed him to step up when others went down.

Beams we will get compensated for him, or we keep him. I suggest the former will happen. The compensation will be from the Suns I believe. Greenwood goes three quarters of the way there. The other quarter, I think we will get there. I think Beams may well be a little over rated by Collingwood fans.

I am totally against your OP, I think we are in good hands. What were you saying in 04 and 05 after we made to GF's and slipped right away? Were you saying then how we lost the plot? Buckley is going through a dip after a similar success period in 10, 11, but he was able to get a finals finish out of the side in the two proceeding years in 12 & 13, and now have dropped out. Next year, I reckon we will make finals again, and in 16 we will be strong again.

I would suggest to you, that your post is the one telling us.

Have we done anything wrong? Or have we pretty much made every correct decision, do you think?

 

[DNine]

I would suggest to you, that your post is the one telling us.

Have we done anything wrong? Or have we pretty much made every correct decision, do you think?

Lets see,

Dale Thomas for Nathan Freeman, TICK
Wellingham & Dawes for Broomhead & Kennedy TICK
Shaw for Adams TICK

Makes us younger, but the first round picks were a win.

White, Lynch, Young, Armstrong for Free, how can it not be a TICK

Lumumba and Beams yet to be decided. Won't be listening to rumors to conclude my thoughts.

Yes we are younger in average, and we need some older types to stop our age profile from continuing to decrease, so we are looking at Varcoe and Greenwood.

I think at best, the jury is still out.

But surely you can't call doom and gloom when the Pies have done nothing than to get first round picks for players that weren't worth first round picks.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Lets see,

Dale Thomas for Nathan Freeman, TICK
Wellingham & Dawes for Broomhead & Kennedy TICK
Shaw for Adams TICK

Makes us younger, but the first round picks were a win.

White, Lynch, Young, Armstrong for Free, how can it not be a TICK

Lumumba and Beams yet to be decided. Won't be listening to rumors to conclude my thoughts.

Yes we are younger in average, and we need some older types to stop our age profile from continuing to decrease, so we are looking at Varcoe and Greenwood.

I think at best, the jury is still out.

But surely you can't call doom and gloom when the Pies have done nothing than to get first round picks for players that weren't worth first round picks.

Doesn't make sense. It's great being a believer and I wish I shared your optimism, as we are all linked by the fact we want Collingwood to win. I just can't see it. I think we are going backwards. Obviously I hope Adams, Kennedy and Freeman are 200 game stars for us. For now I don't think they are. (Freeman is obviously too early to call)

 

[Morganashlee]

Doesn't make sense. It's great being a believer and I wish I shared your optimism, as we are all linked by the fact we want Collingwood to win. I just can't see it. I think we are going backwards. Obviously I hope Adams, Kennedy and Freeman are 200 game stars for us. For now I don't think they are. (Freeman is obviously too early to call)

You think we are worse off with Broomhead, Kennedy and Freeman for the next 10 years than with Sharrod (who cant get a game at West Coast), Dawes (who hasn't been anything special at the Dees) and Daisy (who is a shadow of the player he was in 2010-2011)? Those 3 premiership players haven't shown us anything worth missing since they left.