The 'nice guy/good bloke' culture at the club needs to change

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Marstermind said:
I agree with this. The list is clearly not very good but it isn't diabolically bad either. So why can't we snag a win somewhere? Hawthorn's second half last week and first half today were diabolically bad - far worse than anything we've put together in the last 6 weeks - yet in that time they snagged wins against the Lions and Saints. How does that happen? Can't be that teams just don't have off days against us.

Goes back to mentality and culture for mine. The younger Hawthorn list, as poor as it is, isn't shackled with years of failure and mediocrity. If they get a sniff they believe. When they don't they get trampled on. When we get a sniff, we're waiting on someone to stuff it up. Hawthorn could eventually lose so badly so often that they'll be where we are.

The Essendon and Sydney losses were crucial. We started poorly, got back in it, got ahead, fell behind, stuck around and then just errors from senior players saw us behind at the wrong time. Winning those could have charged a lot. As it was we lost.

We just need that sort of breakthrough win against a more fancied opponent. I reckon when it comes, more wins will follow. But it'll just be a sugar hit unless the right decisions get made at selection and list management.
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The club has been through non stop turmoil and tumult since 2020. We’ve been poorly run from a football perspective since mid-2016 until Clarko walked in. Combine that with awful off/field strategy until Sonya took over and we are where we are.

Some stability and consistency and a win or two will come. We will start to believe. I can’t accept that Wardlaw and Sheezel and Phillips and Zurharr and Logue and Larkey and LDU and Simpkin are happy to be losers.

But the stench of the late Brad/Shaw/Noble era is still lingering. Til that is throughly exorcised we’re still playing fantasy football. I’m sick of fuxking draft picks. I want to start winning!!!
 
Ischenko said:
The club has been through non stop turmoil and tumult since 2020. We’ve been poorly run from a football perspective since mid-2016 until Clarko walked in. Combine that with awful off/field strategy until Sonya took over and we are where we are.

Some stability and consistency and a win or two will come. We will start to believe. I can’t accept that Wardlaw and Sheezel and Phillips and Zurharr and Logue and Larkey and LDU and Simpkin are happy to be losers.

But the stench of the late Brad/Shaw/Noble era is still lingering. Til that is throughly exorcised we’re still playing fantasy football. I’m sick of fuxking draft picks. I want to start winning!!!
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Are you sure we haven’t been in turmoil since he walked in? Let’s be honest it hasn’t been ideal.
 
Agree with this. Go back to the 90’s and I know that’s a while ago, but the dynamic was ‘good friends who play hard, but also work hard’. They worked hard for each other, they didn’t want to let each other down. Party hard and enjoy but as soon as you play a bad game you’ll know about it.

If people are actually friends they’ll have no issue telling each other how it is. Real friends can tell each other when they’re full of sh*t.

A true ‘good bloke’ wants his mates to succeed even if it means rolling up the sleeves and getting hands dirty. Digging a ditch all day is crap but it makes the beers at the end of the day even sweeter.
Not sure what culture we’ve got anymore. Will these guys be happy catching up at the ‘20 year reunion of not losing to the Crows by as much as they thought’, or do they want flags? Up to them.
 

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Spud11 said:
Agree with this. Go back to the 90’s and I know that’s a while ago, but the dynamic was ‘good friends who play hard, but also work hard’. They worked hard for each other, they didn’t want to let each other down. Party hard and enjoy but as soon as you play a bad game you’ll know about it.

If people are actually friends they’ll have no issue telling each other how it is. Real friends can tell each other when they’re full of sh*t.

A true ‘good bloke’ wants his mates to succeed even if it means rolling up the sleeves and getting hands dirty. Digging a ditch all day is crap but it makes the beers at the end of the day even sweeter.
Not sure what culture we’ve got anymore. Will these guys be happy catching up at the ‘20 year reunion of not losing to the Crows by as much as they thought’, or do they want flags? Up to them.
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It's so important and something I think many tend to overlook in how corrosive it can be to an organisation.

We finished 3rd in 2007 with a bottom 4 list with the us-against-the-world mentality. This group with that level of grit added to their skill can do better.
 
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Hazey1977 said:
You can be a good bloke and hate losing. Our blokes don't seem to hate losing enough.

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They hate losing enough but have not got the skill set to do very much about it.

And leadership is like ice cream; plenty of different flavours but it’s still ice cream
 
Yep, really really pathetic.

No accountability for underperforming seniors. It's gross. I coach under 13's soccer team and I always start the season by aligning the expectations of the parents and my players with my approach. You have to earn your spot. This is why they are graded. I'm a nice guy and let alot go. North are WAYYYY too nice. Would make me look like a prick.
 
Not sure if already been discussed but when you hear shezeel talk he always mentioned about doing all the extras and wanting to improve himself and the club.
Then you hear the senior players all say how shezeel is a beauty and always wants to improve and is setting the standards.
What the hell 😳 has been going on the past few years, no senior players except simpkin are pushing to get the club in the right direction, no one wanting to push themselves to get the most out of themselves. Have been living in there comfort zone.
 
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Not sure there's a huge correlation (or inverse correlation) between being a good bloke and an elite footballer?

Wayne Schimmelbusch, Anthony Stevens, Andrew Swallow, John Longmire, Glenn Archer, Shaun Higgins, Ben Brown - all off the top of my head were great people both interpersonally and as teammates. But also elite players for us.

Conversely there's heaps of w***ers who have ended up s**t players for us too.

We need to overhaul football standards and all the inputs and dependencies related to them. I don't see the issue being whether people are nice or not, in fact being a "good bloke" would help a leader mesh with more of the squad.
 

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Don't need arrogance to enforce standards. You need to be hard and direct. Big difference.

If you're hard and direct about it, it shows you care. If you're a dickhead, it shows you're selfish and don't follow what the team needs.

The main issue for me is, I don't think our co-captains can be direct about the feedback. It's just 'supporting our mates' and 'getting around them'.

It's not good enough.
 
amaz199 said:
Don't need arrogance to enforce standards. You need to be hard and direct. Big difference.

If you're hard and direct about it, it shows you care. If you're a dickhead, it shows you're selfish and don't follow what the team needs.
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I dunno if hard is the right term but you've got to be clear about what is and isn't acceptable and the consequences for unacceptable. And then hold to them.

amaz199 said:
The main issue for me is, I don't think our co-captains can be direct about the feedback. It's just 'supporting our mates' and 'getting around them'.

It's not good enough.
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I don't think Luke can.

Or maybe co captains don't work.
 
I'm over almost all of this playing group.

I couldn't care less if any of them were traded except for Sheezel and Wardlaw

We need to be ruthless
 
Gumble Frankieton said:
I’m not in the anti-Stephenson camp but the timing of this ad is pretty funny. View attachment 1726960
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How come you get cat food ads and I get things like 21 pictures that destroyed actors lives and images of pink rubber objects from some Chinese online junk site that I can only assume are marital aids?
 
It's not the nice guy approach that's the problem, it's the inability to switch from chill-out mode to a level of training that's acceptable for AFL. That's been laid bare by both our own performances and the accounts of players who we've traded, who were taken aback by the discrepancy in standards between clubs (BBB, JHF).

Collingwood have assembled a team of primarily genuinely decent blokes, De Goey aside, and they're flying. The ability to work and train hard has * all to do with how you treat others.

It's a systemic failure. And the onus to turn that around spreads across a few parties. Coaches, fitness/conditioning staff, and all the players at the club who've been on the list since 2020, who were there when the club started turning to s**t
 
Marstermind said:
Agreed. And I also agree that the team needs a bit more mongrel about it too.

But we are losers. That's our culture. Sounds harsh but we've won 9 times in our last 74 attempts. Literally losers. Inarguable.

Sorry Jack, Todd and Ben - great warriors, loyal servants, good blokes, enjoyed the ride watching them play - but all losers. All were present and established players as the team slid from just mediocrity to being outright losers so in my mind, they all need to finish up. One of our captains is a loser. Played 10 years without ever reaching greats heights and makes the same mistakes every week without consequence. Drop him next week and find a better leader next year. Loser mentality seeps through an organisation like a cancer. Having losers in leadership makes it terminal. McKay is a loser. He's played 62 games and only won 7. If he sees the only way to be a winner is to follow the $$$....then good! Piss off. If staying at North means staying a loser then we're better off without you. If you want to stay, then lift!

I wonder if half the players in our club have become desensitised to being losers? Are they angry about being losers? Are they even aware of how much of a loser they are? Or how their loser culture is influencing younger players? The fish doesn't see the water it swims in. The culture won't change until someone sees it, calls it out and changes it. Hopefully that's where Clarko, Ratts and Todd get to work over summer after seeing what they've seen. Until then, and if it happens, then we aren't going to where we want to go no matter who we draft, or what loser concessions we get.

I'm not about needing to see 'hurt' when they walk off after another loss. I get they don't like losing. I don't need to feel some sort of anger - although I felt Ratts was getting there yesterday. Or inciting fans to microwave memberships or dump horseshit outside Arden St. I just want the loser culture gone and the only way to do that involves getting the losers out of the way. Should have happened long ago, but must happen now at selection, and definitely at the end of the year.
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I struggle with the concept of 'little wins' that we hear about way too often to somehow appease the players for consistently losing ... I realise you have to try to use levers to recognise/encourage development and keep morale somewhat positive, but I've often thought that by celebrating these 'little wins', you are by consequence de-emphasising the sole reason they are playing ... to win! Your point about being desensitised is right, in my mind .. and it appears institutional.
 
zoomba23 said:
It's not the nice guy approach that's the problem, it's the inability to switch from chill-out mode to a level of training that's acceptable for AFL. That's been laid bare by both our own performances and the accounts of players who we've traded, who were taken aback by the discrepancy in standards between clubs (BBB, JHF).

Collingwood have assembled a team of primarily genuinely decent blokes, De Goey aside, and they're flying. The ability to work and train hard has * all to do with how you treat others.

It's a systemic failure. And the onus to turn that around spreads across a few parties. Coaches, fitness/conditioning staff, and all the players at the club who've been on the list since 2020, who were there when the club started turning to s**t
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Yeah but if someone’s not playing well at Collingwood they get dropped.

We leave blokes out of form in our defence for three years and sometimes even make them captain because they’re good blokes.

Our youngsters are frustrated and you can see it.
 
Marstermind said:
Agreed. And I also agree that the team needs a bit more mongrel about it too.

But we are losers. That's our culture. Sounds harsh but we've won 9 times in our last 74 attempts. Literally losers. Inarguable.

Sorry Jack, Todd and Ben - great warriors, loyal servants, good blokes, enjoyed the ride watching them play - but all losers. All were present and established players as the team slid from just mediocrity to being outright losers so in my mind, they all need to finish up. One of our captains is a loser. Played 10 years without ever reaching greats heights and makes the same mistakes every week without consequence. Drop him next week and find a better leader next year. Loser mentality seeps through an organisation like a cancer. Having losers in leadership makes it terminal. McKay is a loser. He's played 62 games and only won 7. If he sees the only way to be a winner is to follow the $$$....then good! Piss off. If staying at North means staying a loser then we're better off without you. If you want to stay, then lift!

I wonder if half the players in our club have become desensitised to being losers? Are they angry about being losers? Are they even aware of how much of a loser they are? Or how their loser culture is influencing younger players? The fish doesn't see the water it swims in. The culture won't change until someone sees it, calls it out and changes it. Hopefully that's where Clarko, Ratts and Todd get to work over summer after seeing what they've seen. Until then, and if it happens, then we aren't going to where we want to go no matter who we draft, or what loser concessions we get.

I'm not about needing to see 'hurt' when they walk off after another loss. I get they don't like losing. I don't need to feel some sort of anger - although I felt Ratts was getting there yesterday. Or inciting fans to microwave memberships or dump horseshit outside Arden St. I just want the loser culture gone and the only way to do that involves getting the losers out of the way. Should have happened long ago, but must happen now at selection, and definitely at the end of the year.
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Bloody good post MM. we need to clear the decks with the old blokes including favourites like Cunners, Jack, Goldy, KT and Hall at a minimum. Thanks lads but we need to move on. Our trade people is vitally important where we make big plays for these types of players for their experience and leadership Grundy/Himmelberg/Barrass/Clarke and Gresham.
 
We've had a culture of not working hard enough on our running in preseason for years. Some guys who could run retired or left and we've left with a list that has too many senior players who aren't fit enough. Ziebell, Cunnington, Thomas, McDonald, Zurhaar, Mackay, Greenwood are all sub-standard runners. LDU got off this list but is at risk of going back on it. It's why we get blown away in the middle of quarters week in week out.

Players who have left our club have commented on how much harder their new clubs run in preseason. Shiels mentioned 'training standards' before checking himself in a preseason interview.

Then you add in the young guys who are still building their tanks so you make allowances but they"re seeing very poor examples in preseason running from those senior players.

The problem is that the guys on our list who can actually run at AFL standard are either fringe or not good enough (Taylor, Turner, Howe, Lazzaro, Dawson) or in the twilight (Goldstein and Shiels).

You can crack in all you like - definitely want courageous, competitive players, but if your senior and best players can't run and won't work at in preseason, you will get blown away in transition week in week out. You literally cannot win games of footy.
 
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