The Perth Thread

[kfc1]

Kalbarri is fantastic, love it up there

 

[BALKAN]

Never been up to Kalbarri. Best time of the year for a visit?

 

[gaskin]

When I went there it was around mid January as I remember complaining to a kid I met up there about the teacher I was having at school that year. The weather was fantastic for the most part IIRC.

 

[Plugger35]

Lancelin goes alright too if you like racing around massive sand dunes in buggys, 4wds and bikes.

Some great parties in the dunes too, it's like something out of Mad Max that place.

 

[Scotland]

Commuting isn't a problem. The method of commuting is. The best jobs are always in the city and it's hard to recreate that sort of system without massive Chinese style intervention in the market which State Governments avoid like the plague because a) You get any vision kicked out of you within a few weeks of entering any government planning office and b) The most consistent donators to both sides of politics are property developers who specialise in low density housing and the government will maintain the status quo. You could build a dense city with character of say 100,000+ people in somewhere like York and link a good internal public transit system to a fast rail line to Perth for those who wanted to commute. The key is making sure it's more practical to catch the train then it is to drive.

Would have a nice flow on for the Wheatbelt in services and entertainment and open up a part of the state that's relatively ignored by tourism.

If you are going to build a high density city of 100,000 in York and connect it by rail to Perth you may as well just develop high density in Perth to start with.

Perth has some pretty extensive rail lines within the CBD. The problem is our population is so spread out that 99% of people need a secondary form of transport to access it. Of the new stations Cockburn Central is about the only one to be a bit progressive. Even though it's a dull area there is medium density accommodation all around the station site which is smart.

 

[Scotland]

It's probably better to make Mandurah the main satellite town ala Geelong/the Gong. Then, as you've said, just try and centralise those outskirts. I still think that's problematic though, you'd need the biggest and best train lines in the world to service Perth at this rate and that'll make it worse. You really have to fill in the city.

The problem with Mandurah is that it has **** all going for it. It's a nice place (a lot nicer since the bypass road went in and it's not congested with all the traffic heading to/from the South West) but it's really just a big holiday town. It boomed 5-10 years ago but that was just driven by an abundance of cheap land and everyone wanting to build a cheap holiday house/make a quick buck in property. Nowadays development has ground to a halt and plenty of new houses just sit there empty most of the year.

Bunbury at least has a bit going for it. It's the major regional centre servicing the South West towns and has a port serving numerous industries. I could conceivably see Bunbury expanding in its own right to a city of 100k+ rather than the 70k or so it is now. If Mandurah is to grow it will just be as an extension of Perth - more holiday houses and people moving there and commuting 60km because they can't afford to live closer to the CBD.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

Kalbarri is a nice spot as well from memory although I haven't been there since about 2002/3 so it might have changed a bit.

You wouldn't recognise it.

Great spot though.

 

[smokingjacket]

If you are going to build a high density city of 100,000 in York and connect it by rail to Perth you may as well just develop high density in Perth to start with.

Perth has some pretty extensive rail lines within the CBD. The problem is our population is so spread out that 99% of people need a secondary form of transport to access it. Of the new stations Cockburn Central is about the only one to be a bit progressive. Even though it's a dull area there is medium density accommodation all around the station site which is smart.

I did say dense but I meant medium density in my hypothetical York city. Mix of townhouse and 3-4 story buildings. Very high density with huge buildings are going to ruin the heritage character of the town and then we're back at Perth 101 again.

You say the bolded as though people haven't tried before. In the last WA Labor Government, Alannah McTiernan brought in a very sensible planning policy requiring councils to lift the densities of their regions for urban infill. Theoretically the benefits of this were the councils had full control over where they build up. They could choose what kind of density they wanted and they could what it looked like. So pretty much a council could build a couple of large towers in one spot, allow residents to subdivide blocks or they could redevelop a main street to three story or whatever they wanted. Bear in mind that this was a relatively very small increase in density. Some of the councils are STILL fighting it to this day nearly a decade after it was first tabled.

You underestimate the structural problems of trying to do it in Perth. We need to start again from a blank slate where people CHOOSE to move to said new city because it's of medium density with a more village feel rather than battling the inherent conservatism of ratepayers and governments who like or won't change the status quo, no matter if it's ruining the city.

 

[kfc1]

You're a pretty smart fellow smokingjacket

 

[Riseupaustralia]

He is indeed.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

You wouldn't recognise it.

Great spot though.

I went there last year for the first time since the 90s. Didn't have any trouble recognising it - some new housing to the south of town but otherwise it was exactly the same.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

I went there last year for the first time since the 90s. Didn't have any trouble recognising it - some new housing to the south of town but otherwise it was exactly the same.

New houses to the south of town on the hill.

New housing down by the river, inland from town.

New housing, new industrial area, upgraded marina/docking.

Maybe not obvious, but there has been a great deal of development.

 

[Gough]

Seven pages into a thread on Perth and nobody bitching about the GST, I am disappoint.

 

[Scotland]

smokingjacket, I underestimate nothing. Trying to make any sort of progress in Perth is like pushing shit uphill. The only reason we have extended trading hours for example is because Emperor Barnett said '**** it, the people voted no but I'll introduce it anyway'. How long has that been in, 3 or 4 years? The sky hasn't fallen in.

The sad thing is WA seems to need a dictatorial approach to get anything done. Far too many self-interested ****wits with a voice.

 

[The_Reaper]

I did say dense but I meant medium density in my hypothetical York city. Mix of townhouse and 3-4 story buildings. Very high density with huge buildings are going to ruin the heritage character of the town and then we're back at Perth 101 again.

You say the bolded as though people haven't tried before. In the last WA Labor Government, Alannah McTiernan brought in a very sensible planning policy requiring councils to lift the densities of their regions for urban infill. Theoretically the benefits of this were the councils had full control over where they build up. They could choose what kind of density they wanted and they could what it looked like. So pretty much a council could build a couple of large towers in one spot, allow residents to subdivide blocks or they could redevelop a main street to three story or whatever they wanted. Bear in mind that this was a relatively very small increase in density. Some of the councils are STILL fighting it to this day nearly a decade after it was first tabled.

You underestimate the structural problems of trying to do it in Perth. We need to start again from a blank slate where people CHOOSE to move to said new city because it's of medium density with a more village feel rather than battling the inherent conservatism of ratepayers and governments who like or won't change the status quo, no matter if it's ruining the city.

Which is why I hope these council mergers go ahead.

 

[little graham]

Seven pages into a thread on Perth and nobody bitching about the GST, I am disappoint.

The sandgropers rekon SA don't get enough GST. We should be more supportive.

 

[smokingjacket]

You're a pretty smart fellow smokingjacket

He is indeed.

Thanks y'all. Good to have you both round too

 

[smokingjacket]

Which is why I hope these council mergers go ahead.

I doubt it will fix the problem unfortunately. If it means lower rates that's a good thing but there's so much wrong with planning, special interests and the cultural part of wanting a 4be2 that it'll be very hard to change.

What I struggle with is what Riseupaustralia pointed out earlier in the thread. These blocks have moved beyond the old bungalow at the front cricket pitch/garden out the back character that I could justify moving out to the suburbs if I had too.

But further north in Butler, and beyond, with homes on 400sqm or less, with no gardens and stacked on top of each other to maximise developers profits.

Most of these new homes are built on already small blocks and not just the developers but the owners too decide to build the exact same project home on the reduced block as what they would build on one twice the size. I've seen whole estates where the rear gutters of single story houses nearly touch each other at the back. What's the real difference between that and an apartment? There's no room or light for a garden out back and most likely the front is paved for the driveway. What's the point? Where do the kids play? Seems like people want the house more than the lifestyle.

 

[MinerBoy]

Visited in August when the Hawks played Freo. Fly in Friday, out Monday.

Friday: Beers at Brisbane Hotel (I think)....more beers at Wembley Hotel.
Saturday: Walk around Lake Monger. Brekky at cafe on City Beach. Golf at Wembley. Quick tour including that big park (Queens?) over looking the city. Dinner, beers and Bledisloe Cup at Paddington Ale House.
Sunday: Lunch and Pre-game drinks at The Village Bar, Footy (Hawks lost ), post game beers at Subiaco Hotel.

Lots of beers, not much sight seeing. Had an excellent time despite the result. Would Perth again.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

I doubt it will fix the problem unfortunately. If it means lower rates that's a good thing but there's so much wrong with planning, special interests and the cultural part of wanting a 4be2 that it'll be very hard to change.

What I struggle with is what Riseupaustralia pointed out earlier in the thread. These blocks have moved beyond the old bungalow at the front cricket pitch/garden out the back character that I could justify moving out to the suburbs if I had too.


Most of these new homes are built on already small blocks and not just the developers but the owners too decide to build the exact same project home on the reduced block as what they would build on one twice the size. I've seen whole estates where the rear gutters of single story houses nearly touch each other at the back. What's the real difference between that and an apartment? There's no room or light for a garden out back and most likely the front is paved for the driveway. What's the point? Where do the kids play? Seems like people want the house more than the lifestyle.

Indeed, there is a definite shift in the acceptance from the home builder to live in such a manner, and I honestly believe that it will lead to social chaos in these areas in the not too distant future.

They are bloody rabbit warrens without a single, desirable characteristic.

I suppose it is a reflection on modern trends and dependencies on electronic toys, (in the home), and travelling O/S for holidays, (Bali LOLOL).

The house is a box to keep us safe from the big bad world, where we can lock the doors, immerse ourselves in "entertainment" to deviate our thoughts away from our millstone mortgages and the only real reason "we" leave it is to go to a job we hate to service the debt, or to engage in some more retail therapy at our monopolised supermarkets and appliance stores.

Who needs a f***ing garden, and it's too dangerous for the kiddies outside anyway?

What a great society we have developed.

 

[smokingjacket]

Indeed, there is a definite shift in the acceptance from the home builder to live in such a manner, and I honestly believe that it will lead to social chaos in these areas in the not too distant future.

They are bloody rabbit warrens without a single, desirable characteristic.

I suppose it is a reflection on modern trends and dependencies on electronic toys, (in the home), and travelling O/S for holidays, (Bali LOLOL).

The house is a box to keep us safe from the big bad world, where we can lock the doors, immerse ourselves in "entertainment" to deviate our thoughts away from our millstone mortgages and the only real reason "we" leave it is to go to a job we hate to service the debt, or to engage in some more retail therapy at our monopolised supermarkets and appliance stores.

Who needs a f***ing garden, and it's too dangerous for the kiddies outside anyway?

What a great society we have developed.

Can't like this enough. Even though the old backyard concept sounds isolationist when you plonk it in modern society, it was traditionally a social tool. BBQ's on the weekend and space for the neighbours kids to play in to compensate for the lack of surrounding public entertainment options. There are no redeeming qualities of the current housing model and you are 100% bang on regarding huge future issues to deal with.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

Can't like this enough. Even though the old backyard concept sounds isolationist when you plonk it in modern society, it was traditionally a social tool. BBQ's on the weekend and space for the neighbours kids to play in to compensate for the lack of surrounding public entertainment options. There are no redeeming qualities of the current housing model and you are 100% bang on regarding huge future issues to deal with.

Not for me, as you know, I'm getting the flock out of here.

 

[Keys]

People are working out that big yards can be hard to maintain (especially with water restrictions) which along with developers profits is driving the small blocks but there is a stupid resistance to apartment style living. Its arse about really - large blocks close to the city in older suburbs with smaller blocks as you move out with very little high rise (or medium rise even) anywhere

 

[smokingjacket]

Not for me, as you know, I'm getting the flock out of here.

Jealous, but you can be sure that they'll come for your patch of paradise at some point. WA isn't an outlier the all the major Australian state government parties are propped up by donations legal or not of property developers. Why do you think Howard introduced the First Home Buyers Grant? To keep tradies in work? NSW Liberal Party branches screaming at him to do something for their donation committee more like.

Not sure what the go with some of the other states are but at least as a bare minimum Victoria makes developers pay for the infrastructure of a new suburb if they want to bash down some more bush/farmland. We subsidise the profits of estate developers by paying for all the roads and community centres.

Make sure you give them a kick if they try.

 

[PastiesPeake]

I love my suburban block with the big 4x2 plonked on the middle. It is the great Australian dream.

I don't buy into the need for a high density city with London like living arrangements.

With the land we have we can afford to spread out. Sure the services also need to spread out, but I don't see that as a major issue.