Tom Liberatore vs Jack Ziebell

[Mixed Results]

Yeah see Ziebell has been severely overrated his whole career by your supporters. Take the rosy glasses off. He has one of the worst clanger counts in the league.

So you're saying people who watch him every week are overrating him, and you're using his clanger count to show why?

 

[Engimal]

Yeah see Ziebell has been severely overrated his whole career by your supporters. Take the rosy glasses off. He has one of the worst clanger counts in the league.

And Liberatore's hype is completely justified, right?

 

[UmpiringFooty]

Plenty of bulldogs fans and North haters have voted for liberatore.
Go Jack Ziebell. Sure he does some undiscipline stuff but he's still a kid. He's a kid with a very mature head on his shoulders.
Libba - still has some maturing he has to do. He was suspended for taking drugs last year.

 

[Daz]

Ziebell's a better kick than Cunnington yet I'm willing to bet Jack has the higher clanger count purely because of the k:h ratio.

FA's also count as clangers, btw. Jack's a bit psycho so he gives away plenty of them. The clanger count is a terrible way to gauge someone's kicking. Kicking efficiency would be better but even then highly contested players are at a disadvantage.

 

[Daz]

Hang on a minute, don't tell me Ziebell's out put has gone up with his TOG %.

Now I've seen it all.

But but but Bulldogs fans keep telling me it's an irrelevant stat.

 

[Donkey Chop]

But but but Bulldogs fans keep telling me it's an irrelevant stat.

Which is bizzar because man do those boys love stats.

Won't matter next year.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Libba - still has some maturing he has to do. He was suspended for taking drugs last year.

And what has that got to do with his performances this year? And, I don't think lack of maturity affected him in any way, he played like a 200 gamer for all of the season. You obviously haven't watched him many times then.

 

[Remon Tea]

Gladly pick Libba over Ziebell. My personal opinion is that Ziebell has been grossly overrated. In saying that both have the capacity to become genuine stars in the future.

 

[ManOfClay]

There's more to kicking than making the ball spin right.

Ziebell's kicks may look good but when almost half the time they don't hit a target THAT may be why people say he has average disposal.

He's a bit like Mitch Robinson.

 

[Donkey Chop]

For a bloke with average disposal, my lord does he have a lovely set shot. Even when he has to roost it well over 50 meters. Imagine what he could do if he could kick well

 

[Tragic sainter]

For a bloke with average disposal, my lord does he have a lovely set shot. Even when he has to roost it well over 50 meters. Imagine what he could do if he could kick well

Have a higher DE?

 

[ManOfClay]

For a bloke with average disposal, my lord does he have a lovely set shot. Even when he has to roost it well over 50 meters. Imagine what he could do if he could kick well

Yep, that's what I mean. He kicks the ball well, which I said.. If you and others saw past the chip on your shoulder you'd have noticed that.

He does kick the ball very well. However kicking between two posts is a little different than kicking to a man in blue and white stripes.

 

[ManOfClay]

And Liberatore's hype is completely justified, right?

Ziebell has never had an individual season like Liberatore's 2013. When a 20 year old is the best clearance mid in the game then I'd suggest he's worth a little hype.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Yep, that's what I mean. He kicks the ball well, which I said.. If you and others saw past the chip on your shoulder you'd have noticed that.

He does kick the ball very well. However kicking between two posts is a little different than kicking to a man in blue and white stripes.

Look mate, if you're going to have a dig at his kicking stick to it. You can't have a little bit each way. He's either a good kick or he is not.

Jack is a lovely kick of the footy when in space. In fact I reckon if you could somehow get a look at his kicking efficiency on the outside he'd be well in the 80% range (prolly higher).

Truth is its his clearances and contested possessions that drag it down, because Jack unfortunately is from the school of banging it on the boot to gain meterage. It's probably the only knock on his game.

Also you talk about how much of a contested beast Liba is, and he is, I'd agree. However I'm pretty confident if a ball was placed on the ground in the middle of the centre circle and Liba was standing on one side of the square and Jack was on the other and they had to run in and win that ball. Jack would win that contest every time and probably put Liba in hospital.

 

[Tragic sainter]

Also you talk about how much of a contested beast Liba is, and he is, I'd agree. However I'm pretty confident if a ball was placed on the ground in the middle of the centre circle and Liba was standing on one side of the square and Jack was on the other and they had to run in and win that ball. Jack would win that contest every time and probably put Liba in hospital.

So sorta like a clearance situation? The situation where libba is the best in the entire afl? Get a grip mate jack would be far too slow or not even on the field cause he has no tank.

 

[ManOfClay]

It's like arguing with a child. If you can't see the difference between kicking between two posts 25m high and hitting a moving player then I don't think I can help you. He's a good kick technically but misses a lot of targets, mostly because he's a bit of bang on the boot as you said.

As for your hypothetical situation it's hilarious how far you overrate ziebell, to the point you need to discredit any other team's good young players just to make you feel good. One of these kids has been winning the ball in the clinches more than any other player in the league and it's not the so-called tough guy ziebell.

Despite being smaller and almost 10 kilos lighter I'm pretty confident libba would get to the ball first and have an effective handball away before ziebell can lay the contact. Even then Liberatore would just get back up, he's a tough unit.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Yeah just like when these two met in round 7 and Liba had an enormous 14 disposals helping his team to a honorable 10 goal loss. While Jack had a disappointing 27 possession 2 goal game.

Yes I can see why you would think that Liba would get the better of Jack when they meet.

 

[doggies ftw]

Well in that situation Jack probably would be more likely to win it, too bad in AFL there is more to clearance work than running in a straight line and smashing into your opponent... Put them in the middle in a proper game day situation and Libba wins more often than not, and you can't argue with that.

Besides give Libba the same amount of time in the system and let's see where he's at then.

 

[Aldo]

Look mate, if you're going to have a dig at his kicking stick to it. You can't have a little bit each way. He's either a good kick or he is not.

Yes you can go both ways. You can have a nice looking kicking action in non pressure situations but it doesn't mean you are a great field kick or particularly great at hitting targets. They are two different things. Using a Bulldogs example, Jackson Macrae has a kind of opposite problem. He looks weird when he kicks it and it looks like a loopy and wobbly kick, but somehow it hits its target very frequently.

 

[Dazb86]

And Liberatore's hype is completely justified, right?

It's not hype when they've done it. Liberatore is all performance and there is nothing 'potential' about him.

 

[Daz]

So ManOfClay we're just choosing to ignore the fact that DE% is a very poor indicator of kicking ability?

Here's a fun fact. Sam Gilbert has a DE% of 83.4%, significantly higher than Ryan Griffen's 69.7%. Griffen also averages one more clanger per game. I'm pretty sure I know who has the better kick, though.

It shits me that the best people can come up with on the polls board is basic stats. Even more annoying when they don't know what they mean.

 

[ManOfClay]

Difference beeing Gilbert pads his out with short defensive kicks. None of Ziebell, Smith or Griffen do that.

Either way you should probably stop tearing up just because people don't rate Ziebell as the GOAT at every aspect of his game. He's a very similar player to Smith in playing style, which was my initial comment. Of course he should be (and is) better - he's played more games, is older and was a higher draft pick (although both first rounders).

On the topic of the thread, Liberatore is better. Younger, fitter and better in the clearances, which is his role as an inside mid.

 

[Daz]

52% of Ziebell's possessions are contested and 68% are kicks.
55% of Libba's possessions are contested but just 50% are kicks.

Doesn't take a genius to see why Libba has the higher DE%.


Here's some more fun facts, despite averaging 5 less disposals, Ziebell averages more goals (1.1 vs 0.1), assists (0.4 vs 0.2) and I50's (3.6 vs 3.4) in significantly less game time (72.7% vs 83.3%). Libba comfortably leads the way in R50's (1.5 vs 2.7), further backing up the suggestion that he gets his uncontested ball in largely non-dangerous spots on the ground.


I put this to you, Dogs fans. Over the course of his career, what will make Libba a significantly better player than Matt Priddis?

 

[ManOfClay]

Very selective stats there. You'd hope the guy who plays a more outside role and rests forward kicks the ball more and gets more goals.

The use of the TOG stat is also quite flawed, seeing as you seem to trumpet ziebell spending less time on the ground as a positive for him. Notably you use the same to trumpet Cunnington. Like the guys who are fit enough to spend more time on the ground get marked harder.

You seem very willing to discredit Liberatore. "He gets his uncontested ball in largely non-dangerous spots on the ground". Does it occur to you we finished bottom four and the ball spent a lot of time in our defense? Then the Priddis comparison. Laughable.

I said Ziebell is a good player. However his role in the team is different than Liberatore, who is a pure inside mid. Think of it as like the Geelong midfield of the last few years, Liberatore is your Joel Corey, Ziebell the Paul Chapman.

As it is Libba is the best in the league at his role. Ziebell has the potential to be the best in his.

 

[Daz]

Very selective stats there. You'd hope the guy who plays a more outside role and rests forward kicks the ball more and gets more goals.

The use of the TOG stat is also quite flawed, seeing as you seem to trumpet ziebell spending less time on the ground as a positive for him. Notably you use the same to trumpet Cunnington. Like the guys who are fit enough to spend more time on the ground get marked harder.

You seem very willing to discredit Liberatore. "He gets his uncontested ball in largely non-dangerous spots on the ground". Does it occur to you we finished bottom four and the ball spent a lot of time in our defense? Then the Priddis comparison. Laughable.

I said Ziebell is a good player. However his role in the team is different than Liberatore, who is a pure inside mid. Think of it as like the Geelong midfield of the last few years, Liberatore is your Joel Corey, Ziebell the Paul Chapman.

As it is Libba is the best in the league at his role. Ziebell has the potential to be the best in his.

- The TOG argument is not flawed. Every time it has increased, Ziebell has improved. It will continue to increase and he will continue to improve. A similar thing happened with Watson (incidentally, a similar type of player). And yes, the same thing has been happening with Cunnington. 12 months ago you wrote off TOG as an indicator and both players produced mini-breakout years. Clearly you don't learn.

- The ball didn't spend that much time in your defence. That's a weak explanation shows how reluctant you are to admit Libba isn't perfect. You had no trouble getting the ball forward. Your issue was the quality of use and your lack of forward targets.

- Why is the Priddis comparison laughable?