List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2017/2018 - Refreshed (cont in part 2)

[wicksy]

Wicksy it all boils down to what Hine and Buckley think his upside his. In their opinion he may be worth the second rounder.

Forgive me for not being excited about who Hine rates.

*cough* Sier *cough*

 

[wicksy]

It was Quaynor from the Chargers he was talking about as the NGA prospect, not Holtz-Fitz.

Agree with all of this though.

Is Hotz-Fitz the year after?
What do we know about Quaynor?

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Fair point. I agree with it also.
Still doesn't change the fact that we overpaid though.

Maybe, time will tell i suppose, must say it was a strange decision to go left field after our recent messes (Sier-Mayne and even Wells to a lesser extent), if it doesn't turn out we'll look even more stupid than we do now.

 

[Apex36]

Is Hotz-Fitz the year after?
What do we know about Quaynor?

I think Holt-Fitz is available next year too. There is a new thread dedicated to Quaynor, you should check it out. 185cm running defender with heritage from Ghana.

 

[wicksy]

I think Holt-Fitz is available next year too. There is a new thread dedicated to Quaynor, you should check it out. 185cm running defender with heritage from Ghana.

Just took a look at a few articles. Got mentioned in the same breath as Rankine, King and Lukosius. Me likey!

 

[jackcass]

I was thinking that they would have crack at Schache and suggested it to a Dog's fan mate of mine pre trade period. His eyes lit up as he doesn't rate Redpath and reckons the Dogs are running out of patience. I don't watch a lot of them so not sure what the knock is on Redpath.

Other than his knee injury, not sure. Not a great ruckman, not a great forward. Poor man's Hale.

If they're recruiting Schache I reckon it's more about concerns with Cloke and Boyd's ongoing availability. A little bit about replacing Stringer.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Perhaps you will but I guarantee it won't be as vigorously as you have attacked this selection/trade/process/future draft/strategy
It will just be a dismissive two or three word throw away comment

In all likelihood, CFC2010 won't be required to deliver a comment of any sort about Kelly or academy guns. Even if coerced by future events into conjuring together 2 or 3 words of dismissive praise, the fact will still remain that we paid overs for Murray. Your unquestioning support of the club is admirable to some, while to others, it's absurd. On this occasion you are a virtual lone candle in a wind of discontent. Enough of the holier than thou stuff. You are more likely than CFC2010 to be wrong on this one.

 

[PieWithHorse]

Yeah and perhaps the blamers don't believe that strategy would ever be revealed.

Do we really think the question "what will you guys want to do with the pick?" never comes up in discussions between clubs?
As soon as a club suggests a pick or refuses an option, explanations as to why are sought and hence given. If we think that it stays between clubs and isn't mentioned to other clubs in subesequent meetings, we are once again kidding ourselves.

Sure, they might be sought, but it doesn't mean that truthful/fully truthful answers are given. There's a large amount of smoke and mirrors involved.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Sure, they might be sought, but it doesn't mean that truthful/fully truthful answers are given. There's a large amount of smoke and mirrors involved.

Is that you, Travis, belching smoke behind the windows in the shadows?!?

 

[THATSGOLD]

No its just very frustrating talking to people who can't see the forest for the trees.

Comments like: "we only gave up the equivalent of pick 45 in 2017 draft. That's a pretty fair trade."


Head meet brick wall.

Here's our drafting strategy Hine, yourself, Jmac, Blow job (Baltimore Jack) on the left with his 2017 pick 45 algorithm. Myslef Scodog10 Apex36 and many others on the right.

Blow job ahhaa

 

[THATSGOLD]

I think Holt-Fitz is available next year too. There is a new thread dedicated to Quaynor, you should check it out. 185cm running defender with heritage from Ghana.

Can he play full forward?

 

[THATSGOLD]

I think a lot of people are confused by why others are angry about the Murray trade.
I'm actually quite bullish about the kid. His highlights look good (even though they are in a very poor quality league) and he fills a major need for us for low $$.

I don't think anyone is disappointed in the acquisition itself.
What we are disappointed in is that we gave up our 2018 2nd rounder which will most likely be in the 25 to 28 range which is way overs for a rookie who's never played a game and was seen to be a project player when the Swans took him in the first place.

In a strong draft that 2nd rounder would have given us a great chance of getting a 100+ game player OR a strong hand at the trade table when we're trying to reel in Lynch.

The fact that Hine has basically said that it was expendable due to unknown commodities in Holtz-Fitz and Kelly reeks to me of desperation or arrogance (or stupidity). Either way, i'm not happy that we are so cavalier about throwing draft picks away especially when most players this off season went for unders.

Even if Murray turns out to be the next Judd it’s still a shitty trade getting rid of that 2nd round draft pick. I agree. Regardless of how s**t or great Murray is we didn’t have to pay that high price to get him. It’s rediculous.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

No its just very frustrating talking to people who can't see the forest for the trees.

Comments like: "we only gave up the equivalent of pick 45 in 2017 draft. That's a pretty fair trade."


Head meet brick wall.

Here's our drafting strategy Hine, yourself, Jmac, Blow job (Baltimore Jack) on the left with his 2017 pick 45 algorithm. Myslef Scodog10 Apex36 and many others on the right.

How did I miss this first time round the thread? Gave me a chuckle. The club could defecate on some posters and they'd still claim they'd been sprinkled with holy water. Not to mention the trees ... and the forests of which you speak!

 

[PieWithHorse]

Is that you, Travis, belching smoke behind the windows in the shadows?!?

Not a 100% which Travis you're referring to, however, I bet a Travis of ours wishes he had some smoke around as he pointed his pecker at a mirror circa 2016

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Not a 100% which Travis you're referring to, however, I bet a Travis of ours wishes he had some smoke around as he pointed his pecker at a mirror circa 2016

That Travis, of course! Is there another Travis capable of mangling the English Language as he did (does?)?

 

[magpies42]

In all likelihood, CFC2010 won't be required to deliver a comment of any sort about Kelly or academy guns. Even if coerced by future events into conjuring together 2 or 3 words of dismissive praise, the fact will still remain that we paid overs for Murray. Your unquestioning support of the club is admirable to some, while to others, it's absurd. On this occasion you are a virtual lone candle in a wind of discontent. Enough of the holier than thou stuff. You are more likely than CFC2010 to be wrong on this one.

How can you be so sure we paid overs?

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Sure, they might be sought, but it doesn't mean that truthful/fully truthful answers are given. There's a large amount of smoke and mirrors involved.

Not as much smoke and shadows behind the windows that people think.

 

[sr36]

I think a lot of people are confused by why others are angry about the Murray trade.
I'm actually quite bullish about the kid. His highlights look good (even though they are in a very poor quality league) and he fills a major need for us for low $$.

I don't think anyone is disappointed in the acquisition itself.
What we are disappointed in is that we gave up our 2018 2nd rounder which will most likely be in the 25 to 28 range which is way overs for a rookie who's never played a game and was seen to be a project player when the Swans took him in the first place.

In a strong draft that 2nd rounder would have given us a great chance of getting a 100+ game player OR a strong hand at the trade table when we're trying to reel in Lynch.

The fact that Hine has basically said that it was expendable due to unknown commodities in Holtz-Fitz and Kelly reeks to me of desperation or arrogance (or stupidity). Either way, i'm not happy that we are so cavalier about throwing draft picks away especially when most players this off season went for unders.

People are upset because they thought we were going to get him for nothing, but ended up having to pay a price. We don't know the best possible price that we could have negotiated with Sydney. Whether that price turns out to be too high comes down to talent identification - does he make it or not. So the way I see it comments like the one I've bolded are having a go at Murray as it's implying that he is unlikely to play 100 games. If you are actually bullish about Murray like the Pies recruiters obviously are, surely he's worth a downgrade like the one we've done. If he makes it, it's a great use of a 2nd rounder.

 

[Gone Critical]

I suppose it’s no secret the swans have had their salary cap issues. They have a very strong defence so why not take advantage of the rookie system while they can? Maybe the Pies coming knocking has forced them into action.

From my understanding, Murray really improved when he was moved into defence during the year.

Who knows. But, would Sydney realistically go in asking for a second round pick if they thought he was worthless? They would have opened up with a 4th rounder to just let him go. They may have simply thought that they wanted to keep him, however, at a certain price they would be willing to move.

Agreed you may be right and this kid is much better than the fairly superficial evidence we have to assess him suggests. The highlights say there are things to work with. It still seems we should have been able to pay less. Also on the surface when I try to delve into in NEAFL season it doesn't look like a player on the verge of senior selection. I know there are limitations on what you can conclude from this.

I have mention his place in the MVP (14th of Swan players) but thought I would go beck through the NEAFL match reports. Looked to the matches the Swans reserves played and the 2 finals. He was named in the best 6 players 4 times in the 18 matches he played. Not conclusive but interesting.

His 22 posies per game and 6 score involvements as mentioned in the HUN have to be considered in the light that the Swans only lost to the Bears in the NEAFL, including the GF. 16w2l for the H&A. %233 and 7 wins by 100points or more sometimes much more. This was a very uneven comp and the Swans stat numbers as a team were very high. It discounts a bit the numbers the players put up.

My point here is looking at the figures of a kid who has been in the system for 2 years and hasn't starred is that he will likely need further development and is unlikely to be ready for senior footy come the start of 2018. Swans as they were offering him another rookie spot didn't see him as senior ready for 2018.

We overpaid for him on any reasonable assessment so that shouldn't make us label him AFL ready. If he is good enough over time he will get his go but I would suggest better not to expect him to do too much in 2018.

 

[well left]

I'm less concerned about overpaying for Murray individually than I am the reasons we've been overpaying. Yes we could have done better with the trade but perhaps where we expect the draft to be deep is an area we think we have covered i.e. Midfield or with players we expect to pick with picks this draft.

I'm more worried about the fact we have now traded out of the 2nd round 2 years in a row after being out of the first round for 2 years with the Treloar trade. I don't think we are valuing our future picks highly enough and we left ourselves this year with no ability to trade.

We also aren't attracting players due to off field dramas. Don't discount the revolving door of footy ops managers and its affect.

These factors led us to looking outside the square and I'm ok to pay a bit more to get a player we want but it needs to be one off and not a consistent practice like it has been.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

So who are we getting at 6 and are we going to pick up any delisted players
in the next few weeks

I would like Fogarty or Naughton at 6, but considering the club didnt consider Schache and fell off the radar in regards to Watts makes me think that Brander maybe our choice, if he is available.
The club is still waiting on medical advice in regards to Sinclair, but l think his career may well be over sadly. Ramsay still unsigned, and its looking more and more doubtful the club will re-sign him. So if both players are released, we may open up a spot for a FA, depending on our planned draft strategy. Personally wouldnt mind Collins or a Anthony Miles who remains unsigned.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

"If Murray was in this draft, he would be in the top 15 picks" - Brett Anderson

 

[left at home]

Agreed you may be right and this kid is much better than the fairly superficial evidence we have to assess him suggests. The highlights say there are things to work with. It still seems we should have been able to pay less. Also on the surface when I try to delve into in NEAFL season it doesn't look like a player on the verge of senior selection. I know there are limitations on what you can conclude from this.

I have mention his place in the MVP (14th of Swan players) but thought I would go beck through the NEAFL match reports. Looked to the matches the Swans reserves played and the 2 finals. He was named in the best 6 players 4 times in the 18 matches he played. Not conclusive but interesting.

His 22 posies per game and 6 score involvements as mentioned in the HUN have to be considered in the light that the Swans only lost to the Bears in the NEAFL, including the GF. 16w2l for the H&A. %233 and 7 wins by 100points or more sometimes much more. This was a very uneven comp and the Swans stat numbers as a team were very high. It discounts a bit the numbers the players put up.

My point here is looking at the figures of a kid who has been in the system for 2 years and hasn't starred is that he will likely need further development and is unlikely to be ready for senior footy come the start of 2018. Swans as they were offering him another rookie spot didn't see him as senior ready for 2018.

We overpaid for him on any reasonable assessment so that shouldn't make us label him AFL ready. If he is good enough over time he will get his go but I would suggest better not to expect him to do too much in 2018.

When your in a good team winning by 100 plus points a few times, it’s going to be had being in the bests playing in the back line.
My view on it is, is he better than anyone in the second round of the draft, who usually don’t play first up. If so and is playing first this season, the next he his

 

[cleomenes]

I think a lot of people are confused by why others are angry about the Murray trade.
I'm actually quite bullish about the kid. His highlights look good (even though they are in a very poor quality league) and he fills a major need for us for low $$.

I don't think anyone is disappointed in the acquisition itself.
What we are disappointed in is that we gave up our 2018 2nd rounder which will most likely be in the 25 to 28 range which is way overs for a rookie who's never played a game and was seen to be a project player when the Swans took him in the first place.

In a strong draft that 2nd rounder would have given us a great chance of getting a 100+ game player OR a strong hand at the trade table when we're trying to reel in Lynch.

The fact that Hine has basically said that it was expendable due to unknown commodities in Holtz-Fitz and Kelly reeks to me of desperation or arrogance (or stupidity). Either way, i'm not happy that we are so cavalier about throwing draft picks away especially when most players this off season went for unders.

Have to agree with most of this. The only query would be over what we don't know about the trade. It is very hard to understand in terms of what we do know.

 

[Crazy Tails]

"If Murray was in this draft, he would be in the top 15 picks" - Brett Anderson

He keeps going on about this but where he sits this year is irrelevant. We gave up a pick in next years draft for him.

I'm more interested to know if he thinks he would be worth 25-35 in next years draft. Time will tell.