List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2018/2019 - Part 3

[jackcass]

So in other words we need to improve our attacking systems for overall improvement...

I think our attacking system is fine. Our issues this year were more about work rate and application. I think much of that was rooted in a lack of team cohesion.

 

[GoalSneak07]

Someone mentioned this should we look to trade WHE? Had a poor year and is surplus. Frees up some cap space too.

Why? He had no pre season and found form late in the season, club would be just pure stupid to trade him. Our structure runs so much better when he and Stevo are in the team and playing well. Don't jump the gun.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Why? He had no pre season and found form late in the season, club would be just pure stupid to trade him. Our structure runs so much better when he and Stevo are in the team and playing well. Don't jump the gun.

You've got to put these crazy trade brain farts into context with time of year

It has to be the weirdest of times
Its like posters drag a name out of the air and make up a story around that name to suit their crazy notion......and then FMD, other posters pile on saying what a great idea it is
Its like mass hysteria takes over

 

[loki04]

I think our attacking system is fine. Our issues this year were more about work rate and application. I think much of that was rooted in a lack of team cohesion.

I think there was clear change of style to our method of ball movement which caused confusion in the 22.

Caught between our 2017 quicker ball movement and a new emphasis on short passing and slower more methodical approach.
Often the first half of the season our starts quarter 1 was the 2017 approach, then after that we seemed to try transition to a more defensive slower short kicking approach. Was it too conserve energy or other reason I don't know.

Pendles admitted as much during the year that they went too far with the short kicking slow retention approach.

 

[HFF]

Trav signed a 2 year deal with Bulldogs, played 8 games, being dropped in the process and chucked it all in, after the one year. Pretty sure that was a decent list decision in hindsight. A bad decision would have been to retain him on $450k and have him stink it up again. Not trying to smash Trav but even he knew he was done.

I’m not disagreeing in that he wasn’t cooked.
But at 29— Cox is entering a delicate position—-if Travis Cloke was delivering the same output as Cox would he be afforded the same luxuries as Cox is?
The answer is no.

 

[jackcass]

Nor would the defence want to lose pace or run and carry options. We are not in short supply of taller players capable of playing an intercept role on talls and shorts. I agree there does not really seem to be a spot for Pendlebury down back. But what do we do to improve our clearance situation other than hope that Sier determines to take football seriously? I don't much like the idea of turning Maynard or Crisp into midfielders.

I think you have to look for development from within the existing player group. We don't have the currency to chase a gun clearance mid. You could look at a kid like Bonar who is starved of opportunity at GWS but he's another development type. I'm not a fan of moving Crisp and/or Maynard any more than I'm a fan of JDG becoming predominantly a mid. I think the way we used JDG and Crisp on occasions is the ideal way to go.

I think the biggest need for change to our midfield is actually on the wings. Can't continue to run players like Mayne and Phillips (on 2019 form) through there. Need to bring either pace and/or skill and/or hardness to those 2 positions.

 

[HFF]

I think you have to look for development from within the existing player group. We don't have the currency to chase a gun clearance mid. You could look at a kid like Bonar who is starved of opportunity at GWS but he's another development type. I'm not a fan of moving Crisp and/or Maynard any more than I'm a fan of JDG becoming predominantly a mid. I think the way we used JDG and Crisp on occasions is the ideal way to go.

I think the biggest need for change to our midfield is actually on the wings. Can't continue to run players like Mayne and Phillips (on 2019 form) through there. Need to bring either pace and/or skill and/or hardness to those 2 positions.

Agree wholeheartedly.
Phillips would be ideal trade bait but I doubt the club would have the balls to offload him.

For us to improve we need to go past Mayne at the very least next season.
We can’t afford to be slow and stagnant with greet stuck in concrete.
He’s played well but we are slow on the wings when these guys should be tearing up those on the outside with pace and skill to burn.

 

[DaVe86]

I must rate Phillips a lot higher than others.

I think his work-rate is first class, he has a pretty good attack on the ball and he is a pretty decent mark as well. His obvious let down is foot skills, but I think he more than makes up for it with how hard he runs defensively and offensively. He isn't quick, but he is a ball carrier. Of course I'd love an Andrew Gaff or a Josh Kelly instead, but overall I think he plays his role nicely. One of the only players in our midfield who runs back as hard as he runs forward.

 

[sr36]

I think there was clear change of style to our method of ball movement which caused confusion in the 22.

Caught between our 2017 quicker ball movement and a new emphasis on short passing and slower more methodical approach.
Often the first half of the season our starts quarter 1 was the 2017 approach, then after that we seemed to try transition to a more defensive slower short kicking approach. Was it too conserve energy or other reason I don't know.

Pendles admitted as much during the year that they went too far with the short kicking slow retention approach.

In many ways that GWS match encapsulated so much of our season. 3 quarters of stale drabness where we appeared to be just feeling out our opponent and trying to contain and control. Then one quarter of offensive swarm when the game was on the line. We were a bloody frustrating team this year. I really hope we come out with a more attacking mindset next year, but I suspect Bucks's inclination is always to want to control. Hopefully they are regularly revisiting the key conclusions from the review, because it can be pretty easy for individuals and organisations to slip back in to hold habits.

 

[soreplums]

I think you have to look for development from within the existing player group. We don't have the currency to chase a gun clearance mid. You could look at a kid like Bonar who is starved of opportunity at GWS but he's another development type. I'm not a fan of moving Crisp and/or Maynard any more than I'm a fan of JDG becoming predominantly a mid. I think the way we used JDG and Crisp on occasions is the ideal way to go.

I think the biggest need for change to our midfield is actually on the wings. Can't continue to run players like Mayne and Phillips (on 2019 form) through there. Need to bring either pace and/or skill and/or hardness to those 2 positions.

Yep. We need players on the outside who can break the lines through the middle. They help us move the ball more quickly to our forwards and that’s when we look most dangerous.

I liked Crisp’s cameos in the midfield, but feel that he and Maynard are too valuable to our backline.

Unless we find someone who has the same presence and is as dangerous as JDG up forward, we need to keep balancing his mid/forward role.

 

[Stripes B and W]

I think you have to look for development from within the existing player group. We don't have the currency to chase a gun clearance mid. You could look at a kid like Bonar who is starved of opportunity at GWS but he's another development type. I'm not a fan of moving Crisp and/or Maynard any more than I'm a fan of JDG becoming predominantly a mid. I think the way we used JDG and Crisp on occasions is the ideal way to go.

I think the biggest need for change to our midfield is actually on the wings. Can't continue to run players like Mayne and Phillips (on 2019 form) through there. Need to bring either pace and/or skill and/or hardness to those 2 positions.

The other issue with Phillips and Mayne occupying wings is both are below average kicks, zero penetration when the better wingers tend to be damaging with ball in hand. AS they should when they should be getting a higher percentage of ball with space and time to use it.
I think generally we have too many shallow kicks in the 22-25. In addition to the above, Wills, Cox, Brown, Aish immediately come to mind and they are not balanced by too many elite levels kicks of the football in the squad. As an example i thought Williams kicking was devastating on the weekend when field position was so vital in ordinary conditions

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

I must rate Phillips a lot higher than others.

I think his work-rate is first class, he has a pretty good attack on the ball and he is a pretty decent mark as well. His obvious let down is foot skills, but I think he more than makes up for it with how hard he runs defensively and offensively. He isn't quick, but he is a ball carrier. Of course I'd love an Andrew Gaff or a Josh Kelly instead, but overall I think he plays his role nicely. One of the only players in our midfield who runs back as hard as he runs forward.

He's just the club whipping boy. He's really not that bad.

 

[Aishole]

The whole attacking system and I believe the f50 set up is part of it I feel it can and should be improved.

Also I'm not being disengenous the whole point of my original post was to shine a light on an area I feel needs work this also includes quicker ball movement and stoppage work.

You guys spat it and claim our fwd line and attacking systems are fine now you're posting they need work essentially agreeing with me.

Its just a passionate discussion.

I never claimed our attacking systems were fine. I was pointing out the flaws I could see in your backing up of your argument. I agree with your point of how we need to strive to improve it, but I disagree with your method, because is seems like your suggesting that we need some extreme tweaks.

I also question with how simple you make the improvements sound. Its a bloody hard game, theres 22 opposing blokes trying to stop you in your tracks!

 

[sr36]

Why? He had no pre season and found form late in the season, club would be just pure stupid to trade him. Our structure runs so much better when he and Stevo are in the team and playing well. Don't jump the gun.

He played 5 months of senior footy. I don't think we can use a lack of preperation as an excuse. He played one good game - against Gold Coast. I don't think you can suggest he found form.

Heavenly mover and lovely skills, but can't win a contest and doesn't often halve them. I don't mind him as a deep forward, because he's so efficient, but for the role he's been playing, I can't understand why he was preferred to Varcoe, to be honest.

 

[Aishole]

I must rate Phillips a lot higher than others.

I think his work-rate is first class, he has a pretty good attack on the ball and he is a pretty decent mark as well. His obvious let down is foot skills, but I think he more than makes up for it with how hard he runs defensively and offensively. He isn't quick, but he is a ball carrier. Of course I'd love an Andrew Gaff or a Josh Kelly instead, but overall I think he plays his role nicely. One of the only players in our midfield who runs back as hard as he runs forward.

He’s a very solid player! He is one that some will continue to whip around here, until he gets injured or something and misses a period (fingers crossed that doesnt happen) and they’ll see his worth. AKA Langdon... spent so long defending the bloke, and now he’s gone so many haters reckon hes a star!

Don’t know what you got till its gone.

Also, His kicking skills seemed improved from about round 17-18 onwards. Thats purely going off eye test for me.

 

[jackcass]

I think there was clear change of style to our method of ball movement which caused confusion in the 22.

Caught between our 2017 quicker ball movement and a new emphasis on short passing and slower more methodical approach.
Often the first half of the season our starts quarter 1 was the 2017 approach, then after that we seemed to try transition to a more defensive slower short kicking approach. Was it too conserve energy or other reason I don't know.

Pendles admitted as much during the year that they went too far with the short kicking slow retention approach.

Yep, we needed to improve our capacity to play that more cautious approach. We were really poor at that in 2017 and 2018. But we still run and gun as good as any team. It's about balance and the team capacity to switch between. I don't think we got that right this year but I think that comes with continuity with the core player group within a season, and built across multiple seasons playing together. Be nice if we could occasionally transition a footy (both across the ground and forward) to where a player should be rather than where he was just before taking the kick. The numbers of times we have to stop and prop on transition does my head in.

 

[loki04]

He played 5 months of senior footy. I don't think we can use a lack of preperation as an excuse. He played one good game - against Gold Coast. I don't think you can suggest he found form.

Heavenly mover and lovely skills, but can't win a contest and doesn't often halve them. I don't mind him as a deep forward, because he's so efficient, but for the role he's been playing, I can't understand why he was preferred to Varcoe, to be honest.

Yeah but go through the list of players who miss preseason and nearly all bar some freaks struggled with inconsistent form. They all say similar thing in that they never felt like they could catch up and patchy as a result.

I do agree with you that Whe needs to improve his aggression and want in the ground contest and obviously he didn't have the year he would like but I don't think his season was a typical of what you can expect next year.

 

[jackcass]

He's just the club whipping boy. He's really not that bad.

Which Tom Phillips are we talking about?

 

[jackcass]

He played 5 months of senior footy. I don't think we can use a lack of preperation as an excuse. He played one good game - against Gold Coast. I don't think you can suggest he found form.

Heavenly mover and lovely skills, but can't win a contest and doesn't often halve them. I don't mind him as a deep forward, because he's so efficient, but for the role he's been playing, I can't understand why he was preferred to Varcoe, to be honest.

Some players hit the ground running, others take time to get back to speed. I think WHE is clearly in that 2nd group. In a perfect world our senior team would have been relatively consistent personnel wise and he'd have worked his way back into the team via the VFL. Necessity dictated otherwise.

 

[GoalSneak07]

He played 5 months of senior footy. I don't think we can use a lack of preperation as an excuse. He played one good game - against Gold Coast. I don't think you can suggest he found form.

Heavenly mover and lovely skills, but can't win a contest and doesn't often halve them. I don't mind him as a deep forward, because he's so efficient, but for the role he's been playing, I can't understand why he was preferred to Varcoe, to be honest.

I think we know how good WHE can be mate and to be honest he wasn't the only one who had a below par season there's no doubting that. I would like to think there's an underlying reason for his form whether its a role change or his body not allowing him to perform at its peak.

42 goals last season and only 19 this season can be contributed to a change in roles playing more up the ground and also a different forward setup with Elliott back playing consistently also with Stevo out

I've seen him win his fair share of one on ones this season mate not sure what you've been watching? The reason IMO why Varcoe doesn't get picked is because hes at that age where his pace is starting to drop off. There's no question on Varcs desire to win the footy but his 1%ers have decreased thus his value to the team drops.

 

[soreplums]

I must rate Phillips a lot higher than others.

I think his work-rate is first class, he has a pretty good attack on the ball and he is a pretty decent mark as well. His obvious let down is foot skills, but I think he more than makes up for it with how hard he runs defensively and offensively. He isn't quick, but he is a ball carrier. Of course I'd love an Andrew Gaff or a Josh Kelly instead, but overall I think he plays his role nicely. One of the only players in our midfield who runs back as hard as he runs forward.

Can’t fault his running ability. He pushes hard to the full back line to help out and runs hard to get on the end of a goal up forward and pushes into space to provide an option to keep the ball. Great traits to have. Just feel that if we need to trade in a point of difference he may appeal more to other clubs than Others

 

[Sea fog]

The other issue with Phillips and Mayne occupying wings is both are below average kicks, zero penetration when the better wingers tend to be damaging with ball in hand. AS they should when they should be getting a higher percentage of ball with space and time to use it.
I think generally we have too many shallow kicks in the 22-25. In addition to the above, Wills, Cox, Brown, Aish immediately come to mind and they are not balanced by too many elite levels kicks of the football in the squad. As an example i thought Williams kicking was devastating on the weekend when field position was so vital in ordinary conditions

Would be happy to trade Phillips as some clubs may pay overs for him. Ditto Hoskin-Elliott.

 

[sr36]

Yeah but go through the list of players who miss preseason and nearly all bar some freaks struggled with inconsistent form. They all say similar thing in that they never felt like they could catch up and patchy as a result.

I do agree with you that Whe needs to improve his aggression and want in the ground contest and obviously he didn't have the year he would like but I don't think his season was a typical of what you can expect next year.

If this is true, then don't bring them straight into the team the moment their fit. Give them a 6 week preseason.

 

[Albert Parker]

Moore, De Goey and Grundy to re-sign. I gather Elliott may have been seen as expendable, but he was often our most effective forward this year. Retain Wills.
Exits for Wells, Goldsack, Murray, Reid, Crocker, Broomhead (does it impact Grundy's decision?)

I'd retain Varcoe for another year. He'd have been a better option than Callum Brown on the weekend. Brown may improve, but he is too slight and a poor kick for goal.

I actually think we have the tools at our disposal. Some thoughts

1/ Biggest issue for our scoring is taking advantage of the dominance of our ruckman with better stoppage/clearance work. I think the 4th quarter on the weekend showed that. Lose the dinky taps to his feet. We often hit the ball boundary side from throw ins and had no-one there to contest. We need to set up better structures. Beams back and fit will help enormously. If we get the ball in quickly, Stephenson, Elliott, De Goey, WHE on a lead can do some real damage.

2/ We have to get to the bottom of our injury problems. We are consistently one of the 3 worst impacted teams from injury.
Moore and Elliott were available much of the time and both were good players. Hopefully DeGoey will have learned something from his recent visit to Germany too. Beams (especially) and Langdon back would be beneficial.

3/ Murphy or Howe up forward? Given we have so many high quality non-KPP backs (Howe, Maynard, Crisp, Shaz, Aish, Noble, IQ, Langdon, Greenwood, Appleby with Will Kelly in development as a 3rd tall size), I think we should try Nathan Murphy up forward as a 3rd marking target. He's not a large bullocking type, but he is now over 190cm, is athletic and fearless and has shown at junior level that he can kick bags. Alternately, if Shaz, Langdon, Moore provide the intercepts and Roughead and Kelly play the nullifying spoiling types, could we think about Howe up forward again? We don't have the salary cap to chase Josh Jenkins. Will Josh Bruce be cheap enough, possibly not likely either. Slot Murphy or Howe in and move WHE up to a wing along with Phillips and Steele. Mayne misses out.

 

[sr36]

Some players hit the ground running, others take time to get back to speed. I think WHE is clearly in that 2nd group. In a perfect world our senior team would have been relatively consistent personnel wise and he'd have worked his way back into the team via the VFL. Necessity dictated otherwise.

He came back when we also had JDG, Stepho, Varcoe and Thomas in the team and Elliott was only out for a one week injury on Anzac Day. It wasn't a necessity.