Andrew - You are also someone insulting a really good team that the Bulls beat for their first championship (the Lakers). Magic was 31 and only one season removed from an MVP. Worthy was 29. As was Perkins and Scott. The team was pretty dam good and it would have been competing for a championship for a few more years if not for Magic retiring.
Unpopular Basketball Opinions
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I said both pretty even. Not better.
- Apr 2, 2000
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fwiw...
Scoring - Jordan is probably the GOAT scorer, so he wins it. LeBron is underrated as a pure scorer though. I mean he has a career average of 27.1ppg, good for 5th best of all time. Not bad for someone who "isn't a scorer"
Shooter - Jordan has one of the best mid range games ever, so he wins it. Neither are very good from 3.
(for some reason not discussed) Getting/Finishing at the rim - both great, though LeBron is better.
Rebounder - LeBron is better, but you would expect that with the positions they play and size.
Passer - MJ was probably underrated as a passer, due to everyone loving his scoring, but this category isn't even close. To average 7 assists per game as a forward is crazy. He also has one of the GOAT court visions. MJ never made a pass like this and LeBron does it regularly...
Defender - Jordan overall. I feel that LeBron plays defense with 6/10 effort most of the time, while MJ plays 8/10 most of the time. But both have the ability to play that 10/10 when need be, and both are all time greats when they do. I feel LeBron's 10/10 is better than MJ's though. Mainly because of his size and ability to defend more positions. Though overall MJ is in front. But for a one off possession with everything on the line, you wouldn't go wrong with picking LeBron.
Thief - MJ, but this category isn't really that important
Shot blocker - MJ averaged a lot of blocks for a SG, but comparing the two they are about even. I know one block I'll never forget
Athleticism - Both are GOATing this category. MJ might be able to jump higher, but LeBron to do what he does with his body is just unfair.
Speed/Quickness - Not really sure why this is a category. MJ will obviously win this because he's a guard compared to a forward
Strength - added category. Well since Jod wants to talk about speed/quickness, it's not really fair to not talk about. MJ was strong for a shooting guard, but LeBron wins this easily
Mental toughness - Jordan
Clutch - Playoffs outside the Dallas series - pretty even. Regular season - MJ
BBall IQ - Both great in different ways. Even
Leader - I never really thought you could rate someone as a leader unless you were behind the doors with them. They obviously lead in different manners. MJ was suited to the 90s. He might get in trouble for the way he leads in today's game.
Dunker - I mean who the **** cares.
So you came to the same conclusion I did. Jordan in a landslide.
I have Jordan as GOAT, so it's not surprising that I have him higher in most categories. I'm just not blind like yourself and don't just award MJ everything because he's MJ. I mean the fact you say LeBron isn't a better passer is just stupid.
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He insults all those teams.
Portland with Drexler, Porter, Duckworth, Williams, Robinson, Ainge, Kersey.
That Phoenix team was stacked with Barkley, KJ, Majerle, Ainge, Chambers, Ceballos, Dumas.
Seattle with Payton, Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, Johnson, Perkins, McMillan, Wingate.
Then those Utah teams with Stockton, Malone, Hornacek, Russell, Anderson, Eisley and Carr, they were tough as nails.
All great teams, you'd be talking Championship teams if MJ werent around. The same could be said for the Knicks and Pacers in the mid 90's.
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Fair call. But then it's HILARIOUS when Andrew3737 claims Lebron to be a better all round player.
Not that hilarious at all. I think they are probably about the same in regards to all round player, so someone saying LeBron is a better all round player isn't crazy to me. It's got to do with versatility. LeBron can play 4 positions. MJ can play 3. LeBron is a better passer and rebounder. All those things mean he's got some pretty big ticks in the all round player checklist.
Andrew3737
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91 Lakers/92 Blazers are good teams, but compared to LeBron, SRS is a thing, and so is ELO and average PER of the team. Those things show LeBron has faced better teams. Your opinion is the Knicks would beat any contender from the east now, which is obviously not true. So I obviously know whatever your going to say is just going to be opinion not backed by any factual information.
Well no, its just impossible to argue Jordan's opponents were better than LeBron. Love how you just dismiss the 73 win team and play them down, but say the 58 and 56 win Blazers/Lakers are really, really good.
you're right, he gets swept in the first round instead.
As for your big long thing.
Scoring/Steals are the only category where Jordan wins comfortably.
lol. LeBron is in Magic category. This is pretty freaking obvious.
6'8, 250lbs. LeBron is the most athletic basketball player ever. I would put it pretty even on quickness, but Lebron being taller and heavier, its an easy win for LeBron. Shotblocker lol. This is a joke.
You really have a problem with facts. You just follow every media narrative.
This is for the playoffs.
- Jordan and LeBron both have 3 buzzer beaters for 7 attempted in the playoffs.
- In the final 5 seconds Jordan is 5/11 and LeBron is 6/10
- in the final 24 seconds, Jordan is 11/28 and LeBron is 9/18
- In the final 60 seconds, Jordan is 14/37 and LeBron is 13/27
- In the 4th and OT, while on the floor Jordan’s teams are 115 pts per 100 possessions. LeBron is 118 per 100.
- In the 4th and OT, while on the floor Jordan’s teams give up 104 per 100 possessions. LeBron is 101 per 100.
- Jordan’s stat line for elimination games, 31.9 7.8 7.0 on 44% shooting
- LeBron’s stat line for elimination games, 32.9 10.8 6.9 on 47% shooting
- LeBron has only scored less than 30 points once since 2011 in game 6 or 7s or elimination games and that was game 7 vs GSW 2016.
All from ESPN, NBA-Miner and bball-ref.
This narrative that Jordan>LeBron in the final minute is fine since Jordan is a better shooter. I want the ball in the hands of the best shooter, but dont pretend Jordan hit every shot and LeBron missed.
Really? LeBron is the coach/GM and the playmaker. Again this shows the complete bias.
Phoenix was the best team, but it still isn't better than any Spurs/GSW team he will/have faced. Again, NBA expansion happened and the average talent fell. Utah faced Spurs, Grizzlies, Nuggets, Mavs 4 times, each have less than 25 wins. The next season, same 3 teams had less than 20 wins. Yes Utah was a great team, but the W/L is inflated.
Jordan is the GOAT, but LeBron is chasing him and he is within touching distance.
Well no, its just impossible to argue Jordan's opponents were better than LeBron. Love how you just dismiss the 73 win team and play them down, but say the 58 and 56 win Blazers/Lakers are really, really good.
you're right, he gets swept in the first round instead.
As for your big long thing.
Scoring/Steals are the only category where Jordan wins comfortably.
lol. LeBron is in Magic category. This is pretty freaking obvious.
6'8, 250lbs. LeBron is the most athletic basketball player ever. I would put it pretty even on quickness, but Lebron being taller and heavier, its an easy win for LeBron. Shotblocker lol. This is a joke.
You really have a problem with facts. You just follow every media narrative.
This is for the playoffs.
- Jordan and LeBron both have 3 buzzer beaters for 7 attempted in the playoffs.
- In the final 5 seconds Jordan is 5/11 and LeBron is 6/10
- in the final 24 seconds, Jordan is 11/28 and LeBron is 9/18
- In the final 60 seconds, Jordan is 14/37 and LeBron is 13/27
- In the 4th and OT, while on the floor Jordan’s teams are 115 pts per 100 possessions. LeBron is 118 per 100.
- In the 4th and OT, while on the floor Jordan’s teams give up 104 per 100 possessions. LeBron is 101 per 100.
- Jordan’s stat line for elimination games, 31.9 7.8 7.0 on 44% shooting
- LeBron’s stat line for elimination games, 32.9 10.8 6.9 on 47% shooting
- LeBron has only scored less than 30 points once since 2011 in game 6 or 7s or elimination games and that was game 7 vs GSW 2016.
All from ESPN, NBA-Miner and bball-ref.
This narrative that Jordan>LeBron in the final minute is fine since Jordan is a better shooter. I want the ball in the hands of the best shooter, but dont pretend Jordan hit every shot and LeBron missed.
Really? LeBron is the coach/GM and the playmaker. Again this shows the complete bias.
Phoenix was the best team, but it still isn't better than any Spurs/GSW team he will/have faced. Again, NBA expansion happened and the average talent fell. Utah faced Spurs, Grizzlies, Nuggets, Mavs 4 times, each have less than 25 wins. The next season, same 3 teams had less than 20 wins. Yes Utah was a great team, but the W/L is inflated.
Jordan is the GOAT, but LeBron is chasing him and he is within touching distance.
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Andrew3737
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I can concede that.
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Yeah he coasts a lot of the time, esp in the reg season, but when he needs to lock down guys, Drose, Hawks in 15, KD in 12, he does it as good as anyone.
they called perkins sam longarm perkins. what was he, 6'9, tarhell, anyone have his wingspan. he was a broadshouldered wingspan, better indicator be reaching height, cos someone like thon maker is as narrow as my priapus.
my thesis is, if you watch the mixtapes and highlights of all the college and varsity highschoolers out there, they have really long limbs and wingspans, and are really lean and tall. compared to say, just kareem abdul jabaar. I have an unpopular basketball opinion, but best like for the albert hird and essendon forum on that one.
perkins was Sac kings before the LA trade? I cant remember, i was a whipper snapper with basketball digest. wow. so long ago.
on the comparison, and statistical regression and economic John Nash Princeton mathemative nobel winnder for Game Theory... all of this, I reckon is out the window.
It comes down to the Lance Armstrong phenomenon, the Don Bradman phenomenon, how badly do you wanna win, and will you crush your direct opponent.
MJ would have developed a three like Kobe if the game had changed under his stewardship, did not he hit about 6 threes in a half and the shoulder shrug versus Portland circa 92? a year after the layup when Perkins came at him to block it under the rim. it may not have been perkins, but it aint kurt coke bottle rambis innit
MJ would have shot the ball like Kobe. His era, he only had to shoot like Mitch Richmond and Joe Dumars, let Mullin and Miller shoot the novelty three ball, that was not how the offenses compiled game winning totals. Lets not forget, statisticall efficiency is but means to end. The end is, winning games. and winning more games than the competition. MJ did that. nothing needs to be said about his flaws, of which, were myriad no doubt. But efficiency can be left for the houston coach or GM or Dantoni of the ex Phillie GM, or the moneyball guys, or the other guys who have come out of HArvard or Princeton or MIT in maths or done an MBA there.
When the game was there on the line, you have to have MJ. Not Reggie. No LBJ. Not Curry.
Your argument, I conceive, the rebuttal forthcoming will be, it never got to the last 3 plays of the game in the last three shot clocks and 40 seconds left on the clock, LBJ would have placed his stamp on the contest and the game would have been iced.
This is a valid point. So... I invite the question, one I am myself raising, why is the arbiter, this hypothetical last 3 offensive and defensive patterns in the game, why have I placed this 3 sets, above every other set in the game.
good question blackcat, will you answer it for me?
Well, for starters, I half agree with the theory, in basketball, if not for selling tv and cable rights to CBS or NBC the first three quarters can be turfed in the bin.
so what then for the last quarter blackcat?
well, MJ is unpeered on the offensive end. And nigh also on the defensive end for guarding the small three positions on the court.
what about Allen Iverson breaking his ankles? yeah, I have a good orthopedic surgeon at the Alfred on Punt Rd who can handle that.
with all of this focus on dantoni efficiency and metrics, why have shot blockers decided to go for highlight-shot-blocks and not work on blocking the shot and gaining possession, making the shotblock stat into a steal. dont tell me they block it against the backboard, yeah, we see that highlight on sportscenter on espn, but a dozen times a year. what, 1200 games a year, circa 20,000 blocks. That should correlate to over half of those as steal statistics. As it is, p'raps they get possession 40% of the time.
yo dantoni, thats alot of possessions innit
Andrew3737
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Good points for the most part however Kobes 3pt % isnt even high.
Also according to NBA-Miner and ESPN which has stats from 91+, LeBron is the best performer in the final 5 minutes in playoff games. Offensive and defensive. Again, I would want Jordan in the last 2 seconds because he is a better jump shooter. This doesnt mean that MJ>LeBron though.
Also according to NBA-Miner and ESPN which has stats from 91+, LeBron is the best performer in the final 5 minutes in playoff games. Offensive and defensive. Again, I would want Jordan in the last 2 seconds because he is a better jump shooter. This doesnt mean that MJ>LeBron though.
fidstar Andrew3737 not all possessions are worth the same, so a statistical regression will always be flawed imo.
I think the ones to ask are their competitors, a chinese wall opinion, where they do not bring forth the rivalries and competition resentment and clashes.
You can then throw out stats, and get their opinion. I think MJ will stand on the shoulders of the giants.
The flaw in this assessment, is, having one person who played across these epochs plural. no one spanned those eras in peak ability.
So, you need an indirect measurement, the metric one must use, is to distill rivals opinions into some unit of measurement, that can define an opinion (this is nigh a paradox). Then out of this algorithm, you have the MJ opinion versus the LBJ opinion in some binary code.
I think the ones to ask are their competitors, a chinese wall opinion, where they do not bring forth the rivalries and competition resentment and clashes.
You can then throw out stats, and get their opinion. I think MJ will stand on the shoulders of the giants.
The flaw in this assessment, is, having one person who played across these epochs plural. no one spanned those eras in peak ability.
So, you need an indirect measurement, the metric one must use, is to distill rivals opinions into some unit of measurement, that can define an opinion (this is nigh a paradox). Then out of this algorithm, you have the MJ opinion versus the LBJ opinion in some binary code.
coookie.
i have not followed basketball for 15 years, blame Zgope for linking me here.
i actually think meta arguments(or discussions) about things like fantasy games and GOAT is a peculiarly american phenomena and we best stick to betting and internet gambling and flies up a wall and John Wren at the Tote. power w/o glory n all that jazz. that is australian. sat next to marieke at the theatre.*
I told Z, going over to america on a highschool trip, I hit 23 threes in practise alone. I have a point. the passer was a better player than me, and the point man did not return it. The three was about 6 inches shorter than our three, the old highschool, old college three line.
My point was, Robert Sibley, ex Brisbane Bullets leroy loggins, ex Tigers, he won a three shoot out after training with the Tigs. He hit 25 without missing from those 5 spots like the competition. He beat Gaze and Whitehead and Copeland. And he never shot from outside 10 feet withing a game, probably averaged less than 8 points a game, was just a rebounder, the baseline bandit.
you can train a monkey to shoot. The highschoolers in America are now shooting better than Miller and Dan Marjele, who I believe were the first shooters to take a long-ball consistently. But no one ever put a hand in their face. Like the highschool kids now. Lets see when the highschool kids go up the ladder to the pros, when the defense switches to defend a different geometry on the court, if they can actually shoot like Stephan Curry can shoot with two defenders hanging on him. I was a shite basketballer. Currys youtube where he hits about 90 in a row from the baseline is not impressive. Getting his shot off with two defenders hanging off him is. for starters, it has spread the defense, changed the geometry of the court, and left 4 GSW with only three defenders to go to them.
This is where, truly great coaches will change the game. I put Beveridge for Footscray in a different sport no doubt, in this ilk. Malthouse can rabbit on about Lombardi and Eisenhower all he likes, but he will always be a bogan from Ballarat. Clarkson will always be an angry ant from the battle of britain, and someone had to win those years Geelong had maxxed out and descening. he had enough foresight to regenerate a list and switch team structure without a figurehead.
so what will happen with the nba and the new court geometry.
I wanna know about the successor to Stein, the younger bald guy, and their equivalent rules of the game committee. And I think I am a little like Barkley, the metrics and the three ball, have changed the game, the court has a new geometry. So what will they do, keep it, let the game evolve and manage itself, be in a natural state of flux, or reingineer the scoring value in that vacuum between the key and 24 feet. In a peculiarly aesthetic pov, the game is less alluring when they have that vacuum. Guys like Rip Hamilton, who else... the mid-range guys. Dwyane never shot threes neither. And he was sexy.
I am becoming a curmudgeon old bastard. I remember the arcade game, NBA Jam. And this epoch of the NBA, is like playing the arcade game with the arcade version joy stick. I think Tim Boyle wrote a Fairfax piece about an NBA game when he was down in Mississippi*, and he saw Russell Westbrook block a shot, and he said it was the most 'severe' and American of games, NBA. severe as in, hyperbole, hyperbolic, in the athletic sense. Then I started watching about 12 months after he wrote that piece, someone else can google it, and I completely understood what he meant when I saw the transition of the game. I remember Don Lane on the ABC presenting March madness. RIP Don. Its entertainment. Did anyone esle attempt to do white guy dunks at the old Albert Park courts where the rings on court one were an inch low, and on court eight, one ring was about three inches too low. white guys rule*
#Poe's_law
#unpopular_non-basketball_basketball_opinions
Andrew3737
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Looks like you need start your own blog/thread 
we blame ZG and his man love of Dwyane Wade.Looks like you need start your own blog/thread
Why cant his parent damn spell dwayne wright[sic] not wrong? In his defense, he may have lost a spelling gene and b, but that is the best dunk i have ever seen no?
thats just nasty. demetriou would have him up b4 the MRP for head high contact
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-04-2015/SWUBep.gif
Andrew3737
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Prime Wade is pretty damn good. Astounds me how people rate Kobe's prime super high but Wade is easy>Kobe in my books (I value peak higher a little higher than career)
- Apr 2, 2000
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So you just pretty much flip flop on what you just posted a minute ago. Ok.
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Oh, I finally get it. You're trolling.
Sorry mate, I thought we were bring serious.
Fair do's, play on mate.
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