Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[Baltimore Jack]

Very problematic - we have since found out that dva has no proper method of measuring ex defence members suiciding.

their stats are for sh*t - about two years ago we noticed that suicides that were reported amongst vet groups werent making it to official government stats.

we were going to funerals and they had no idea that a vet had passed.

its not like we all have a tattoo or anything identifying us as such and a lot slipped through the cracks

The RSL (yes they have a vested interest) say the Suicide rate for Vets is 50% higher than for the general population

 

[JackOutback]

The RSL (yes they have a vested interest) say the Suicide rate for Vets is 50% higher than for the general population

I read a recent report that suicides among vets were higher than the general population, but not as high as in regional or Indigenous populations. Would be nice to know the true figures but imagine it's complicated (regional or Indigenous vets, for example).

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Very problematic - we have since found out that dva has no proper method of measuring ex defence members suiciding.

their stats are for sh*t - about two years ago we noticed that suicides that were reported amongst vet groups werent making it to official government stats.

we were going to funerals and they had no idea that a vet had passed.

its not like we all have a tattoo or anything identifying us as such and a lot slipped through the cracks

Don't the ADF organise the volley over the grave and all of that? Surely they keep records of how many volleys happen per year, even if they are only shooting blanks over graves?

Or is that not customary here? I've not been to an Australian military funeral before, so it's safe to say I know f*ck-all about the area...

 

[Caesar]

Don't the ADF organise the volley over the grave and all of that? Surely they keep records of how many volleys happen per year, even if they are only shooting blanks over graves?

Or is that not customary here? I've not been to an Australian military funeral before, so it's safe to say I know f*ck-all about the area...

Pretty sure that's not really a thing in Australia

Veterans are entitled to some money from the DVA to assist with the funeral, but they only know if the family fills out the paperwork... I think the RSL offers flags and poppies and stuff for the funeral, but again you have to fill out the paperwork to get it

I've been to a few funerals where you wouldn't know the deceased was a vet, but in most cases they probably would have wanted it that way... they lived a decent life after getting out and I never got the sense that their military years were a huge part of their identity

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Pretty sure that's not really a thing in Australia

Cheers. As I've said, I haven't been to an Australian military funeral before. I've watched too much American media, where they have the volley and then the draped flag gets folded into a triangle and handed to the wife. Soldiers get the volley and so do cops over there - not sure about firies.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Pretty sure that's not really a thing in Australia

Veterans are entitled to some money from the DVA to assist with the funeral, but they only know if the family fills out the paperwork... I think the RSL offers flags and poppies and stuff for the funeral, but again you have to fill out the paperwork to get it

I've been to a few funerals where you wouldn't know the deceased was a vet, but in most cases they probably would have wanted it that way... they lived a decent life after getting out and I never got the sense that their military years were a huge part of their identity

It can be if its a serving member and its requested

 

[Schneebly11]

As expected, the ADF has caved to the pro-SF lobby:

Defence chief cites 'negative public attention' in decision to wind back move to revoke honours - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

Looks like allowing a culture of murder and crime to develop in your unit is not grounds to revoke awards, and Jacquie Lambie and some Sky News hosts had a sook about it too, can’t upset them.....

Will this comment be made soon?:

“due to public opinion we’ll be withdrawing any recommendations for charges and awarding all soldiers involved a Victoria Cross”

 

[Hornberger]

As expected, the ADF has caved to the pro-SF lobby:

Defence chief cites 'negative public attention' in decision to wind back move to revoke honours - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

Looks like allowing a culture of murder and crime to develop in your unit is not grounds to revoke awards, and Jacquie Lambie and some Sky News hosts had a sook about it too, can’t upset them.....

Will this comment be made soon?:

“due to public opinion we’ll be withdrawing any recommendations for charges and awarding all soldiers involved a Victoria Cross”

Isn't a negative public attention the precise reason for revoking those honours?

 

[Caesar]

culture

 

[Schneebly11]

Isn't a negative public attention the precise reason for revoking those honours?

The honours were revoked because the unit as a whole failed to deal with the crimes they knew were happening inside the unit.

Despite what dumb ass Lambie says it was not an action against individuals soldiers who did nothing wrong (although given evidence form 4 Corners it seems most knew what was happening and failing to speak up at the time was unconscionable). It was an acknowledgement against the unit that they failed to act and their conduct In Afghanistan as a whole was not meritorious.

Of course the powers that be don’t want that truth to be the remembered history. I suspect there was immense political pressure behind the scenes. Can’t denigrate “Australia’s heroes”, especially not with Anzac Day coming up in a few weeks.

Pathetic spineless cowards if you ask me. I’m quite doubtful that any serious charges will be upheld against any SAS war criminals.

I mean 12 months ago we have direct footage of an SAS soldier murdering an unarmed Afghan in cold blood. How more clear evidence of murder can be found I’m not sure. Yet no charges. Yes it’s a different environment, but if video evidence was uncovered that showed any civilian murdering another in Australia like that in cold blood there’d be murder charges filed the next day.

Truth is we have a political establishment that wants us to only see members of the military as infallible heroes, no questions asked.

 

[Over The Post]

Caved in to pressure from the government:
The chief of Defence pulled back on revoking honours awarded to Australian soldiers in Afghanistan, citing a desire not to "be at odds" with the government's position on the issue.

Nothing to do with the public, despite what's being said.

 

[Schneebly11]

Nothing to do with the public, despite what's being said.

Nonsense. The government acts on what they believe will be popular (ie what will wIn them an election). The vocal opinion lobby says that revoking this award is an insult to “all brave diggers”. So the government puts pressure on the military to not revoke the award and they cave, showing they have no moral courage. Moral courage is doing what is right even if public opinion is against you.

This is totally about public opinion.

 

[Over The Post]

Thus:
citing a desire not to "be at odds" with the government's position on the issue.

You think Defence gives a sh*t about public opinion? Government do. And the leader of Defence does as he is told. He's wanting to keep his job.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

As expected, the ADF has caved to the pro-SF lobby:

Defence chief cites 'negative public attention' in decision to wind back move to revoke honours - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

Looks like allowing a culture of murder and crime to develop in your unit is not grounds to revoke awards, and Jacquie Lambie and some Sky News hosts had a sook about it too, can’t upset them.....

Will this comment be made soon?:

“due to public opinion we’ll be withdrawing any recommendations for charges and awarding all soldiers involved a Victoria Cross”

The first rule of the institution is to always protect the institution

 

[Schneebly11]

Thus:
citing a desire not to "be at odds" with the government's position on the issue.

You think Defence gives a sh*t about public opinion? Government do. And the leader of Defence does as he is told. He's wanting to keep his job.

So yeah, it was an act of moral cowardice. If the CDF had moral courage he’d resign his position, he didn’t so he’s a coward.

 

[Schneebly11]

The first rule of the institution is to always protect the institution

I think you’ll see a lot of parallels with how the Catholic Church treats pedophiles and how the ADF treats war criminals coming up.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I think you’ll see a lot of parallels with how the Catholic Church treats pedophiles and how the ADF treats war criminals coming up.

Of course, it was never in any doubt (nothing ever changes)

 

[Chief]

I think you’ll see a lot of parallels with how the Catholic Church treats pedophiles and how the ADF treats war criminals coming up.

This is the point someone attacks you for "calling all soldiers paedophiles!!!111", and the focus is off the real issue.

 

[Kwality]

culture

Thats a broad brush considering the breadth of the military & the relatively small number of incidents.
To me its a failure of leadership.

 

[Kwality]

So yeah, it was an act of moral cowardice. If the CDF had moral courage he’d resign his position, he didn’t so he’s a coward.

Sometimes resigning is the easy way out particularly when the issue is in the court of public opinion. Does no more than quieten the mob, satisfied they've got a victim. Is that cowardice or hypocrisy?

 

[Caesar]

Thats a broad brush considering the breadth of the military & the relatively small number of incidents.
To me its a failure of leadership.

culture

 

[Kwality]

So yeah, it was an act of moral cowardice. If the CDF had moral courage he’d resign his position, he didn’t so he’s a coward.

Who or what is 'the CDF' ?

 

[Kwality]

culture

I've a close friend who is a longtime SAS member, so I do tend to judge things through that prism & culture is not how I'd describe the way 2 Squadron ran off the rails.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Who or what is 'the CDF' ?

Chief of Defence Force

 

[Kwality]

Chief of Defence Force

Cheers, Angus Campbell - he should be held to account, its not personal, if something untoward happens, the boss is caught holding the can.