Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

Hey all,

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[CD Xbow]

I don't understand the point of when current Ukraine was created. As nation it is recognised in its current form.
"Ukrainian language dates to the late 16th century."

Ironically, it was one of the original 51 nations establishing the UN in 1945

Research Guides: UN Membership: Founding Members

Research Guides: UN Membership: Founding Members

research.un.org

 

[CD Xbow]

Yes

This is a completely immoral invasion, plenty of war crimes

My counterpoints are about the geopolitics of the situation not the morality. Still don't think you can call this a genocide

And I'm on the peace negotiations like no one in this thread, actually stopping the death

The only way to stop the killing is for Putin to withdraw from Ukraine or be defeated. Anything else will continue the killing. If Ukraine surrenders they will be slaughtered, if Russia wins they will be slaughtered. I don't see any option other than resistance.

 

[Chief]

Still don't think you can call this a genocide

It's a brutal invasion where Russia seems to be committing each of the five types of acts that make up genocide.

I'm no expert but the acts all seem institutional rather than rogue military.

 

[barreness]

The only way to stop the killing is for Putin to withdraw from Ukraine or be defeated. Anything else will continue the killing. If Ukraine surrenders they will be slaughtered, if Russia wins they will be slaughtered. I don't see any option other than resistance.

Just do what was acceptable to Russia, a puppet regime. It's not like it matters to the residents on a day to day basis, 4 million fleeing and hundreds of thousands dying on the battlefield is worse

 

[Cap]

Just do what was acceptable to Russia, a puppet regime. It's not like it matters to the residents on a day to day basis, 4 million fleeing and hundreds of thousands dying on the battlefield is worse

For you.

 

[barreness]

It's a brutal invasion where Russia seems to be committing each of the five types of acts that make up genocide.

I'm no expert but the acts all seem institutional rather than rogue military.

Is it though, compared to gaza or say Iraq civilian deaths are pretty low. Russia seeks to annex the eastern territory, the population is largely Russian speaking(Stalin shit the cause), haven't seen massacres in the annexed oblasts, not quite lebensraum

 

[barreness]

For you.

Why? I'm just chilling in Perth, I'm not getting drafted or dying in a missile attack

 

[CD Xbow]

Is it though, compared to gaza or say Iraq civilian deaths are pretty low. Russia seeks to annex the eastern territory, the population is largely Russian speaking(Stalin s**t the cause), haven't seen massacres in the annexed oblasts, not quite lebensraum

Russia words suggest they want much more, including the complete destruction of Ukraine. Their actions have been consistent with this. I'm not sure anyone really believes Russia would be happy with just the east, especially because they salami sliced their way into complete control of Crimea and East, yet Putin still invaded the remainder of Ukraine.

 

[Chief]

Is it though, compared to gaza or say Iraq civilian deaths are pretty low. Russia seeks to annex the eastern territory, the population is largely Russian speaking(Stalin s**t the cause), haven't seen massacres in the annexed oblasts, not quite lebensraum

And the exporting of children by the thousand to be given to Russian families and sent to Russian schools where they are forbidden from speaking their own language? Nothing genocidey about that at all?

 

[Chief]

Russia words suggest they want much more,

Invading a place and denying it is even a real country is a dead giveaway.

 

[barreness]

And the exporting of children by the thousand to be given to Russian families and sent to Russian schools where they are forbidden from speaking their own language? Nothing genocidey about that at all?

Source for this? there has been many that have fled Ruusia and Ukraine, thousands in reeducation camps idk

 

[barreness]

Russia words suggest they want much more, including the complete destruction of Ukraine. Their actions have been consistent with this. I'm not sure anyone really believes Russia would be happy with just the east, especially because they salami sliced their way into complete control of Crimea and East, yet Putin still invaded the remainder of Ukraine.

yet went through multiple rounds of peace talks in 2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

 

[Cap]

Source for this? there has been many that have fled Ruusia and Ukraine, thousands in reeducation camps idk

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4486043-russia-kidnapping-campaign-ukraine-war/

Why? I'm just chilling in Perth, I'm not getting drafted or dying in a missile attack

yes, your biggest concern is the deaths make it into your news cycle and how to stop that.

Not actually stopping Russians killing people.

 

[Mobbs]

Source for this? there has been many that have fled Ruusia and Ukraine, thousands in reeducation camps idk

There are various articles throughout this and the previous three threads on this topic - it never occurred to me to index the contents of these threads for future.

Some points which had appeared here from memory - if I can exhume a link I'll add it:
1. Children are moved to determined integration sites in Russia and Belarus (one region was near to Omsk).
2. There are occasionally reports of success in successfully extracting some of the stolen children (I guess numbering in the dozens in total), involving efforts from outside both countries.
3. There was a video clip interviewing a mother re-united with her son & daughter who had been stolen and moved to Russia.
4. Multiple reports of some kind of internment camps in the east of Donbas region or just over the border where families were being "processed".
5. There is an article about families kicked out of Melitopol for not singing the praises of the occupying invaders, I can probably still find this. ["kicked Ukrainians out of their homes who did not support the transition of the region to Russian control "]
6. The ICC has issued warrants to both Putin and Lvova-Belova for the forcible deportation of children from Ukraine.
7. When Russia invades and occupies a portion of Ukraine, it issues replacement Russian passports. It doesn't always dissolve the Ukrainian passport by force, but municipal services requiring ID cease to treat it as a valid document.
8. Russia also confers Russian citizenship on the same citizens including children, to groom them for easier trafficking. When this is done wrt children it is a Geneva Convention breach.
8. Discussion raised the point that it can be justified to remove civilians from a region you occupy during a conflict for their safety, but if those are civilians of the place you're at war with they need to be moved somewhere else other than your own territory, else it's a breach of one of those international to-not-do's I'm not a law grad I can't remember which.
9. This piece from TV Rain tells us a lot about the way Russia does this. [Investigation: How Russia kidnaps Ukrainian children]

Russia is employing the same tactics it has done in other regions such as Belarus, eastern Moldova (Transnistria), parts of Georgia etc (Adjara, Ossetia, Abkhazia) and of course Crimea. In each case they've injected their own sleeper agents, and when activated they start a hooha about them being local to that area and pro-Russia annexation. Once the Russian infection has taken hold, all the healthy cells are driven out.

This is a perfectly common systematic colonisation/acquisition technique worldwide many hundreds of years ago. However, most of the rest of the world has eventually grown up and stopped producing wealth through a turf war like a gang of thieves.

 

[Mobbs]

The website "Save Ukraine" notes that their efforts have been successful in returning 315 deported Ukrainian children.

Home page - SaveUkraine

Save Ukraine is a registered 501(c)(3) charitable organization established in 2014 that coordinates dozens of organizations, volunteers, individuals and legal entities to help those affected by war, with a special emphasis on children.

www.saveukraineua.org

 

[Mobbs]

An interview with Karolina Hird (ISW) re deportation of children to Russia's far east, as well as the injection of Russian agents into Ukrainian regions to fuel the genocide. Link is set to start at the relevant point in the podcast.

 

[Mobbs]

Putin himself perpetrating the lies about Ukraine's statehood, later such propaganda to be used the machinery driving "de-ukrainization". It's suggestive that denial of Ukraine's long-standing existence as a nation is not merely chewing the fat, but can be tied to pro-extermination thinking. Which is why I don't like to let it slide.

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 3

Guys sorry only been able to skim the last few pages. But what is the end diagnosis for why Russia invaded Ukraine? Was it the NATO assurances, or the Nazis, or the lack of sufficiently pro-worker union legislation? Satanists is the current one....

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Mobbs]

And yes on top of insidious repopulation and depopulation concerns, there are also multiple references to civilian massacres over the course of this invasion.

Here's a reference to a mass grave of civilians discovered when Lyman was liberated. I recall another similar article closer to Kupyansk but the link is yet to show up for me in my searches.

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 2

This is a sensitive area for some. With that in mind, I'm going to remind a few posters a few things: personal attacks are against forum rules. From this point, any attacks that are directed at another poster will be treated with a warning, then infractions and threadbans if it continues. the...

www.bigfooty.com

Edit: Found the Kupyansk article:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 2

This is a sensitive area for some. With that in mind, I'm going to remind a few posters a few things: personal attacks are against forum rules. From this point, any attacks that are directed at another poster will be treated with a warning, then infractions and threadbans if it continues. the...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Mobbs]

Can't find the article on the son & daughter returned to their mother. It was such a great clip.

Did find this during the search. Also very heartening:



Note that she's not speaking Ukrainian. That's Russian language. That's a Russian language speaking Ukrainian who had her children stolen by Russia. Household language means naff-all, unless of course if you're in danger of being imprisoned for using the wrong one.

 

[RonSon]

And I'm on the peace negotiations like no one in this thread, actually stopping the death

Would it stop the death long term or be used by Putin to consolidate before attacking again at a later date?

 

[Aussie in exile]

Yes

This is a completely immoral invasion, plenty of war crimes

My counterpoints are about the geopolitics of the situation not the morality. Still don't think you can call this a genocide

And I'm on the peace negotiations like no one in this thread, actually stopping the death

Don't forget that it was Russia who illegally invaded Ukraine.

 

[wannabejack]

Is it though, compared to gaza or say Iraq civilian deaths are pretty low. Russia seeks to annex the eastern territory, the population is largely Russian speaking(Stalin s**t the cause), haven't seen massacres in the annexed oblasts, not quite lebensraum

As of February 15, 2024, 10,582 civilian deaths in Ukraine were reported by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) due to the Russian invasion that started on February 24, 2022.
So you consider over 10,000 civilian deaths as "pretty low". How many deaths would you consider not "pretty low"?

There are also russian speakers in the Baltic states. Does this mean russia can justify attacking the Baltic states.
Most Georgians also speak russian does this mean russia can justify attacking Georgia (have already done). Any country that has russian speakers can be invaded by russia?

 

[Chief]

As of February 15, 2024, 10,582 civilian deaths in Ukraine were reported by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) due to the Russian invasion that started on February 24, 2022.
So you consider over 10,000 civilian deaths as "pretty low". How many deaths would you consider not "pretty low"?

There are also russian speakers in the Baltic states. Does this mean russia can justify attacking the Baltic states.
Most Georgians also speak russian does this mean russia can justify attacking Georgia (have already done). Any country that has russian speakers can be invaded by russia?

Look out all you people on the Gold Coast!

 

[Zidane98]

Just do what was acceptable to Russia, a puppet regime. It's not like it matters to the residents on a day to day basis, 4 million fleeing and hundreds of thousands dying on the battlefield is worse

Will be a very long time before a puppet Russian state regime rules in Ukraine again. No matter what the result of the war is this is a near certainty. Putin has ensured hatred for generations against Russia in Ukraine with his baseless invasion and rampaging fascist dictator ways.

 

[Zidane98]

As of February 15, 2024, 10,582 civilian deaths in Ukraine were reported by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) due to the Russian invasion that started on February 24, 2022.
So you consider over 10,000 civilian deaths as "pretty low". How many deaths would you consider not "pretty low"?

There are also russian speakers in the Baltic states. Does this mean russia can justify attacking the Baltic states.
Most Georgians also speak russian does this mean russia can justify attacking Georgia (have already done). Any country that has russian speakers can be invaded by russia?

Those numbers exclude Mariupol where mass graves have been observed on satellite imagery and reports that nearly 20% of the civilian population that couldn't flee was razed by the invading fascist Russians.

There won't be a clear picture until Russia has been driven out of Mariupol. In the meantime the murderer is in charge of the crime scene.