Wayne Carey Compared to Nick Riewoldt & Jonathan Brown

[Kid rock]

OK, I know this may be a very hard concept for you (as a St. Kilda supporter) to understand but the reason St. Kilda have scored less than the Roo's of the late 90's and Brisbane of the early 2000's is that you are simply not as good as those teams were! This does not mean that scoring in general has decreased! FFS

I am not saying we are better than the teams you mentioned, but obviously being undefeated at this stage of the season and then using our average to predict scores for the rest of the season is going to mean we will have an inflated average.

If St Kilda lose 5 or 6 of their last 10 games then you would think the average points scored will reduce drastically. So, for the comparison between the sides you used and St Kilda 2009 to be fair, St Kilda need to lose 5 or 6 games to have a similar record. That's what i'm saying.

All I am trying to show is that the very first post you made showing all the 'statistics' of points scored over the years actually showed a stronger case for your opposition.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now. The post before that displayed the league averages showed there was very little difference in overall scores over the years.

 

[luke ball14]

After watching Brown in his early years he had the Carey/Brereton confidence and strutt. I thought Brown was a huge chance to challenge Carey at the top - injury has not helped Brown. I would think any back man would rather go to Roo in form they Duck or Brown. Roo would put as much fear into you as the Lonie brothers.

I think Carey would have enjoyed Hayes, Montague and DelSanto kicking it to him rather than Simpson, Stevens and Rock. And he would have loved the no chopping and hands in the back rule.

Anyone that thinks he played 1 on 1 footy get a tape of the Roos V Ess game in 99. Carey was standing 30 metres out from goal with Fletcher on one side and Barnard the other - no other players in within 50 metres of him. They did not have the extra player playing off him or in front of him - 2 players standing either side of the King. He kick 10 on the day,

No he wasn't, he had Barnard all day straight up and destroyed him. I know this because I have the game on video, it was one of the great shoot outs between Lloyd and Carey. But there is no way Carey played 2 on 1, Sheedy wouldn't do that.

 

[CrazyQ]

So people flooded in the 90's and Carey didn't have all the space in forward 50? right thanks for correcting me.

Riewoldt has has also had a dominant FF his first 5 years in the league which also nullifies his goal scoring tally, this is the first year he has been the number 1 target in an ELITE team and he will kick as many goals as Carey did in his best years, 80.

I asked Scott West once who's the hardest player he's played on, this was about 10 years ago+. He said Wayne Carey, I thought wtf?...

Scott West: "We had 3 guys on him."

 

[BACCS]

On Wayne Carey, I heard that he is playing a game up in Queensland on the weekend. Wouldv'e been interesting to watch how the "Duck" is travelling in regards to skills, fitness etc. If someone does manage to see the game, it would be greatly appreciated if you could post a review of how he went (just for interest).

 

[Valve Bounce]

jesus, I realise full well Wayne Carey is better by Riewoldt by a fair margin, but some of the myths in here are astounding. Apparently Riewoldt is:
- Unskilled
- Gets cheap possessions
- An uncontested player
- A poor assist player
- A poor leader
- Inconsistent
- Does not/cannot dominate nor turn games
- Has never had a decent defender

I am just waiting for someone to say he is a shit mark so we can have a complete list of everything Riewoldt is NOT as a player.

I think in a sense this has answered one of the OP's questions, although Carey is clearly a better player Riewoldt will always be underrated in comparison. For some reason the mere mention of the two in the same sentence compels people to try and pick holes in his game that aren't there.

Carey was better than Riewoldt, anyone who saw both their careers will tell you that, why try and denigrate a champion player the prove your point?

Maybe if Riewoldt captain's a flag in the coming years he might be afforded a bit more respect.

Anyone who underestimates Riewold is in denial. The guy is a great player and is a true champion. Just because some guy wants to compare him against Carey, and others argue that Carey was the best (no argument there from me) doesn't mean that Nick Riewold has not already become a very, very good footy player.

I sure as hell wish he was playing in my team.

 

[King_Tredrea]

i agree that you can pretty well throw a blanket over guys like Tredrea, Brown and Pavlich. All superstars at their best but Carey is definetely a cut above the rest.

 

[WHOME]

Be interesting to see guys like Carey and Lockett playing under current rules (no chopping arms, hands in back etc.) Defenders have pretty much been turned into innocent bystanders. Can you imagine how many Plugger would have kicked in a season under the current rules. IMO blokes like Brown and Riewoldt don't come close to Carey. At his peak and before injury slowed him down, Tredrea was the closest thing I have seen to Carey, people forget how dominant he was from say 2001 to 2006.

 

[Arden]

On Wayne Carey, I heard that he is playing a game up in Queensland on the weekend. Wouldv'e been interesting to watch how the "Duck" is travelling in regards to skills, fitness etc. If someone does manage to see the game, it would be greatly appreciated if you could post a review of how he went (just for interest).

Watched him trained tonight with Palm Beach. Looks supremely fit, and not far off his playing condition. Barely missed a target all night by foot, was dobbing goals from 55, but maybe a little slow if anything.

Doesn't look like the average footballer 5-6 years after retirement.

 

[WesternFront]

If Carey is a 10.

Tredrea - 8
Riewoldt - 6.5
Richardson - 6.5, maybe a 7
Hall - 6 (during 04 to 06 - 8, he has been too poor the other years.)
Brown - 6
Pavlich - 6

Not that I think Hall is better than any of the above, but the thing is with Hall playing the bulk of his games at the SCG you cannot classify him as a true CHF as they are basically non existent on the smaller ground and essentially become a FF.

Great

 

[Power21]

Didn't read past the first post when i saw Tredrea wasn't considered, being a better player than both Riewoldt and Brown in his prime should count for something.

 

[Jade]

How so? Richo has never, ever been one of the top few forwards in the league. Sure, he's been great over a long career, but when over the past 15 years would you have had Richo in the top couple of forwards?

Never.

You reckon? Pretty sure the man has qualified as All-Australian, kicked more then fifty goals something like eight or nine times, and has a season high goal ticking tally HIGHER then anything Tredrea has set. I'd say your above statement is blatantly wrong mate.

His best season was played half on the wing. The man is a machine, but he's never had the seasons of complete and utter forward dominance. Maybe that's a symptom of playing for an uncompetitive side, but still, he's never been in the top few AFL forwards at any point of his career.

See the above response and supporting stats. Lunacy.

And then theirs pearler, where I saw a poll result so skewed it was actually laughable:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=498324

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Tredrea, whilst a fine footballer is not even remotely comparable to Richardson.

 

[Pykie]

Watched him trained tonight with Palm Beach. Looks supremely fit, and not far off his playing condition. Barely missed a target all night by foot, was dobbing goals from 55, but maybe a little slow if anything.

Doesn't look like the average footballer 5-6 years after retirement.

Saw it on the footy show


Could get a game for Melbourne still..... easily.

 

[slangman]

It's quite simple really....

Carey could do anything that Reiwoldt could,

but Reiwoldt can't do everything that Carey did!!!!

One is a true champion (on the field) whilst the other is a hardworking very good player.

 

[BACCS]

Watched him trained tonight with Palm Beach. Looks supremely fit, and not far off his playing condition. Barely missed a target all night by foot, was dobbing goals from 55, but maybe a little slow if anything.

Doesn't look like the average footballer 5-6 years after retirement.

Cheers mate, it seems the champions rarely lose much skill! I'm not suprised by pace, but to still be kicking them from 50, fair effort. Are you going to the game?

 

[True Blue Saint]

As people have stated, it is impossible to compare champions of different eras. Different umpiring rules and interpretations, different ways of counteracting (tag teaming, flooding, zoning etc.). That is why I think the stats brought up aren't very useful when comparing Carey with the current gun CHF's.

However, I would like to make a couple of points. Riewoldt is severely underrated by many on this forum. His work rate and stamina is absolutely amazing, and he has unflinching courage. His goalkicking accuracy is also better than many people suggest. I can't really split him and Brown for best CHF's of this decade, although they are different types of players. Brown is obviously your more bash-and-crash type, whilst Roo just doesn't stop running and that is why he comfortably leads the comp in marks over the last 6-7 years. Tredrea is not very far behind...

Secondly, Carey is the best CHF of all time. There can be pretty much no arguments against this. Blokes like Royce Hart, Dermie and Darryl Baldock can all mount cases, but the Duck was just a freak. The things he could do on the football field were a sight to behold. It would be interesting to see how the Duck would adapt if he was playing today, or likewise, how Roo, JB, Tredrea would play in the early to mid 90's. This would be the only way we could gauge an accurate comparison.

Ideal CHF:

Toughness: Brown
Ground skills: Tredrea
Work rate/tank: Riewoldt
Kicking skills (both sides): Carey
X Factor: Carey
Contested marking/one grab: Loewe
Strength in contest: Carey/Brown
Leadership: Carey
Versatility: Riewoldt

 

[pacman]

On Wayne Carey, I heard that he is playing a game up in Queensland on the weekend. Wouldv'e been interesting to watch how the "Duck" is travelling in regards to skills, fitness etc. If someone does manage to see the game, it would be greatly appreciated if you could post a review of how he went (just for interest).

Playing for Palm Beach and has been named in a forward pocket is probably fitter than most guys running around in the comp.

 

[AG]

Not that I think Hall is better than any of the above, but the thing is with Hall playing the bulk of his games at the SCG you cannot classify him as a true CHF as they are basically non existent on the smaller ground and essentially become a FF.

Great

We play 7 out of 22 games at the SCG. That gave him 15 other games to dominate on bigger grounds. ANZ was his favourite stadium and that is a large oval. He was a CHF through those years.

 

[AG]

Ideal CHF:
Toughness: Brown
Ground skills: Tredrea
Work rate/tank: Riewoldt
Kicking skills (both sides): Carey
X Factor: Carey
Contested marking/one grab: Loewe
Strength in contest: Carey/Brown
Leadership: Carey
Versatility: Riewoldt

Carey and Tredrea were tough. Riewoldt took the toughest mark I've ever seen as well.
Hall and Tredrea are just as strong in the contest.
All are similar but Carey has the X factor to himelf.

 

[Zvim]

Carey and Tredrea were tough. Riewoldt took the toughest mark I've ever seen as well.
Hall and Tredrea are just as strong in the contest.
All are similar but Carey has the X factor to himelf.

I think all the players mentioned are very good players and nobody is trying to say otherwise, but in terms of CHF there is currently a big gap between Carey/Hart and the current crop. Reiwoldt, Brown, Pavlich and the rest are still playing so they still have the opportunity to improve on where they are at.

It is hard to compare someone like Carey or Hart who have finished their career and achieved so much to guys who are part way through their career. These guys just don't have the runs on the board and can only realistically be judged when their career is over.

They "could" reach the same lofty heights, but they might not. There is no disgrace not reaching the mark, I'd kill for a CHF that was only marginally behind the Duck. Shit, seeing him run around on TFS I still think he could come back to AFL and would be in the top 5 CHFs.

 

[kahuna71]

It's fair to say we will never see another Carey.

 

[AG]

It's fair to say we will never see another Carey.

My grandfather said we would never see another Coventry after he retired. Now he says Lockett is the best forward he has seen. Someone will always be ready to replace the greats or join them.

 

[sgbn77]

Thats an excellent point...I dont think Carey contended with rolling zones or floods with 18 guys inside a fwd 50 like weve seen over the last decade...

Would Carey have had the engine to play the modern game??

Just a silly attempt to compare the impossible.

This is probably where I think the comparison struggles. You ask, would Carey have the engine to play the modern game? Who cares? Carey played at CHF, and regardless of who was there, took pack marks, monstered blokes, and smashed goals for one or two steps (50 out).

He didn't run up the wing to get marks, and then turn around and lead up the other wing. Riewoldt does, and good on him, but he used to rack up stats against Hawthorn, 'cos we could play Campbell Brown on him, sticking with his leads until he went outside 50, then just let him have it. His disposal inside 50 was always slow and predictable, allowing us to mark up within 50.

Carey played at true CHF and dominated. No comparison between them.

Throw in the fact that the Brereton's of this world would spend a tenth of the game fighting (tiring stuff), then looking out for retribution WHILST dominating the position and kicking goals. There's is simply no comparing different eras.

 

[frednirk]

maybe Im the wrong person to be commenting but Carey and Ablett were able to dominate games like no other....and Im not talking about taking marks and kicking goals...its the intangible confidence

Exactly. Carey literally pulsated with confidence, arrogance at times and posessed supreme godly skill. Sure the stats of Riewolt, Brown and Carey may be comparable. But how do you compare the intangibles?

Ablett and Carey are above statistical analysis imo.

 

[Kings Army]

Exactly. Carey literally pulsated with confidence, arrogance at times and posessed supreme godly skill. Sure the stats of Riewolt, Brown and Carey may be comparable. But how do you compare the intangibles?

Ablett and Carey are above statistical analysis imo.[/quote]

Great post.

 

[Zvim]

It's fair to say we will never see another Carey.

We definitely will. We have only started to scratch on the professional era, even as we speak the juniors are not taught the basics, they rely on natural talent. As we progress and invest more in the youth we will develop better athletes and better footballers, it is why even in the Olympics world records constantly fall, once you set a benchmark all the kids work to surpass that benchmark.

In time, there will be better. He just better play for North.