What stars?

[shawthing09]

It has been said about Collingwood for a long time that our strength is that we are a strong even list with no stars. It has often been used as a critcism of us being the difference between us and the Geelong's, St Kilda's and even Hawthorn's of this world is that we lack the real top end quality. It is something that Sheedy mentioned in his article and is still said of us a lot. My question is does that description still fit?

I'd say Swan Pendlebury and Didak are in the truely elite top end catergory.

On top of that we have a number of players who are "elite" in their particular role. Guys like Jolly, Ball and Presti.

Then you add to the mix guys like Thomas, Harry O and Beams who are performing at a top end level and would not be far away. I personally think the calls that we "lack stars" are no longer fitting.

 

[Optimax]

well that was a real good secret society we had going there for a while.

But yes agree with you completely, our side doesnt seem inadequate next to that of st.kilda, geelong, hawthorn anymore

 

[absy]

Swan is an absolute superstar and has been for a while, people are finally starting to notice.

Definitely agree its just a myth and has been for sometime now. Just like how everyone says Swan is 'a terrible kick'.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

if people cant get into their heads that Swan and Pendlebury and borderline Didak and Shaw arent elite players then they can fk off.

Collingwood's depth is arguably the best in the comp if not as good as Geelong's.

 

[TradeDraft]

Swan and Pendles are our Best Players

 

[Zahki]

We wouldn't be on top of the ladder if we didn't have good players. People just don't like giving Collingwood players credit, but Didak, Swan, Pendlebury and Shaw would stroll into any other best 22.

 

[knightwheelrqr]

It has been said about Collingwood for a long time that our strength is that we are a strong even list with no stars. It has often been used as a critcism of us being the difference between us and the Geelong's, St Kilda's and even Hawthorn's of this world is that we lack the real top end quality. It is something that Sheedy mentioned in his article and is still said of us a lot. My question is does that description still fit?

I'd say Swan Pendlebury and Didak are in the truely elite top end catergory.

On top of that we have a number of players who are "elite" in their particular role. Guys like Jolly, Ball and Presti.

Then you add to the mix guys like Thomas, Harry O and Beams who are performing at a top end level and would not be far away. I personally think the calls that we "lack stars" are no longer fitting.

I'd say we still fit that profile. I agree it is increasingly less so with a few elite players brewing but at the same time we still have a very even side with ever increasing depth.

Geelong when they were great had: Tom Harley, Jimmy Bartell, Brad Ottens, Harry Taylor, Joel Selwood, Joel Corey, Steve Johnson, Cameron Mooney, Gary Ablett, Matthew Scarlett, Paul Chapman, Corey Enright, Darren Milburn and Cameron Ling who were all AA quality players. (Stars all round. 2 Brownlow medalists. All these players were AA players. And several were the best players of their position eg. Scarlett was clearly the competitions best full back)

Then you go back to Brisbane who had: Voss, Akermanis, Black, Lappin, Lynch, J.Brown, Power, Leppitsch, Mal Michael and the Scott brothers who again were all AA quality players. (3 brownlow medalists, Lappin could easily also have been one. J.Brown was a possibly the most dominant player in the game and Lynch was still a star forward)

Collingwood don't have that same depth of super stars with Dane Swan the only true AA quality player with another few who would obviously be strong chances. We don't really have players who can be said to be the strongest in their given positions like can be said about the Brisbane and Geelong teams above.

Then we have a strong 2nd unit of stars with: Alan Didak, Scott Pendlebury, Harry O'Brien, Dale Thomas, Heath Shaw, Simon Prestigiacomo, Ball, Jolly, Cloke who are all probably a level down. Maybe one or two of these might join Swan on an AA team this year, but hardly the same as Geelong a few seasons back.

Heath Shaw and Alan Didak for what they can do would be amongst it. O'Brien maybe. Brian Lake would be a fair way ahead of Prestigiacomo as a backman. Sandilands is far more dominant than Jolly.


Makes for an interesting arguement. In a few years time Thomas, Pendlebury and a few others could join Swan as being true stars of the competition but still have a little bit to go to join such elite company.

I still maintain that this sides strength is depth with nearly all senior listed players capable of playing senior footy if necessary as well as a very strong rookie list many of whom could also join the party and play senior footy if needed.

 

[Pie eyed]

Well that's stuffed that then.

 

[esc0bar]

I'd say we still fit that profile. I agree it is increasingly less so with a few elite players brewing but at the same time we still have a very even side with ever increasing depth.

Geelong when they were great had: Tom Harley, Jimmy Bartell, Brad Ottens, Harry Taylor, Joel Selwood, Joel Corey, Steve Johnson, Cameron Mooney, Gary Ablett, Matthew Scarlett, Paul Chapman, Corey Enright, Darren Milburn and Cameron Ling who were all AA quality players. (Stars all round. 2 Brownlow medalists. All these players were AA players. And several were the best players of their position eg. Scarlett was clearly the competitions best full back)

Then you go back to Brisbane who had: Voss, Akermanis, Black, Lappin, Lynch, J.Brown, Power, Leppitsch, Mal Michael and the Scott brothers who again were all AA quality players. (3 brownlow medalists, Lappin could easily also have been one. J.Brown was a possibly the most dominant player in the game and Lynch was still a star forward)

Collingwood don't have that same depth of super stars with Dane Swan the only true AA quality player with another few who would obviously be strong chances. We don't really have players who can be said to be the strongest in their given positions like can be said about the Brisbane and Geelong teams above.

Then we have a strong 2nd unit of stars with: Alan Didak, Scott Pendlebury, Harry O'Brien, Dale Thomas, Heath Shaw, Simon Prestigiacomo, Ball, Jolly, Cloke who are all probably a level down. Maybe one or two of these might join Swan on an AA team this year, but hardly the same as Geelong a few seasons back.

Heath Shaw and Alan Didak for what they can do would be amongst it. O'Brien maybe. Brian Lake would be a fair way ahead of Prestigiacomo as a backman. Sandilands is far more dominant than Jolly.


Makes for an interesting arguement. In a few years time Thomas, Pendlebury and a few others could join Swan as being true stars of the competition but still have a little bit to go to join such elite company.

I still maintain that this sides strength is depth with nearly all senior listed players capable of playing senior footy if necessary as well as a very strong rookie list many of whom could also join the party and play senior footy if needed.

OK Knight i see your point...

However all those players are considered stars due to the fact that they have won multiple premierships and as a result recieved the acknoledgements along the way....

Thats the only difference.

at the end of 2012 things might be a bit different

 

[knightwheelrqr]

OK Knight i see your point...

However all those players are considered stars due to the fact that they have won multiple premierships and as a result recieved the acknoledgements along the way....

Thats the only difference.

at the end of 2012 things might be a bit different

Certainly not out of the question. Most of those players are still young and by 2012 will be hitting that prime age.

Certainly I have high hopes.

 

[MarkT2]

It wasn't true in 2002/3 and it isn't true now. We don't have a Buddy or a Judd and most of our best players have a flaw be it pace or footskills so we don't have the absolute standout players that some sides have. That may ultimately cost us another flag as it has done before but we are up where we are because we have a ruckman who is in the top bracket, a few mids who are there or raidly getting there and a few backs that just win their position most weeks which is their primary job.

The question I have is not do we have stars but how great are our stars? Will not having the the absolute top end elite cost us again? On yesterdays evidence it won't. On finals evidence pre 2010 it will. I'm hoping the recent evidence is very much a function of improvement and that in 3 years time we will look back at this side and say hindsight claims a number of the leagues top end players.

 

[Ickirus]

Its a line used by those who refuse to acknowledge the talent we posses on our list. It is also commonly used in combination with the statement that MM gets the best out of our ordinary list, rather than considering that we actually have a a number of very talented players on our list.

Our listhas a number of stars, and a good collection of A graders as well.

Swan is the second best mid in the AFL at the moment, his ability to win 1 vs 1's, marking ability, keep his feet, burst run and break tackles, and burn off taggers, makes him a star mid.

Pendlebury has also become an extremely good mid. His awareness, decision making and kicking make him no doubt an A grader. Didak is also an A grade HFF, or outside mid now, and is coping with tags a lot better these days.

Presti is an A grade KPD, he does his job, which is to shut down the oppositions most dangerous forward. He doesn't collect a high number of disposals, which does not make him an elite defender such as Lake, but an A grader he definitely is.

We then have a number of players who perform at a very consistently high level in the position that they play, and in what they do, such as O'Brien, Shaw, Ball, Jolly, and Thomas, etc. Then we have a number of young up and comers who have the potential to be A graders in Beams, Sidebottom, Wellingham, and Reid.

We are not a team without stars, this label should be given to teams such as West Coast, Essendon, Port Adelaide, and North Melbourne (Boomer excluded).

 

[jeffo]

For a few years I used to give sh*t to Collingwood Supporters about Dane Swan, saying he was too slow and too inneffective by foot. However, I can now honetly eat my words.

Swan is THE premier midfielder in the competition in my opinion. I love watching him play.

He is no longer the sneaky midfielder who had 30 touches at the end of the game and you say "really? i hardly noticed him tonight..."

He gets the pill, he has more defensive skills than most 'elite' midfielders (Ablett!!!) ad he is DAMAGING.

would take him over just about any midfielder in the comp at the moment. Including Judd and Ablett.

Genuine "STAR"

 

[shawthing09]

To be fair when you start talking about the absolute top line players it really is hard to seperate them. It is as hard to split the Hodge, Ablett, Swan, Judd combos as it was to split the Hird, Voss and Buckley's. Each player has their strengths and are equally important to their side.

My point is that we certainly have players who should be considered in that bracket. I find it hard to split Swan and Pendles personally and Didak is fast joining those two. From a Collingwood perspective you go to the game and can almost bank that Pendles and Swan will be in the top 3 performers for our side week in week out and pretty much in the top 3 on the ground.

Didak is quickly joining them as he is getting more consistant and working harder on being ability to beat a hard tag. Thomas too.

I think it's easy to list names like the amount of AA's Geelong had in 07 but in that list there are guys like Mooney and Harley who I would say are similar to guys like Harry O, Heater, Jolly and Presti, elite in their role. I'd say we have around 7 players who are pretty much on par as good as anyone else in the league at what they do and 2 (nearly 3 with Didak on the border) who are as good as anyone all round.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

It's a myth; "stars" are normally annointed in retrospect anyway.

If we win the flag this year, watch everyone start calling everyone on our team a star, even when they don't necessarily deserve it.

It's an advantage at the trade table, but a hindrance at contract negotiations.

 

[KissStephanie]

We wouldn't be on top of the ladder if we didn't have good players. People just don't like giving Collingwood players credit, but Didak, Swan, Pendlebury and Shaw would stroll into any other best 22.

Absolutely. In fact, not only would those four be in St.Kilda's best team, but so would Luke Ball, Darren Jolly, Dayne Beams, Harry O'Brien, Ben Reid, Nathan Brown, Brad Dick, Nick Maxwell, and Dale Thomas. Sharrod Wellingham, and Steele Sidebottom would also go close, whilst Travis Cloke and Leigh Brown are both better than Kosie as well. The only St.Kilda players that would be in Collingwood's best team are Nick Riewoldt, Lenny Hayes, Leigh Montgana (as much as I dislike him), Nick Dal Santo, Brendon Goddard, Sam Fisher on the bench, and possibly Clint Jones as a tagger when needed.

Collingwood's depth is arguably the best in the comp if not as good as Geelong's.

Collingwood's depth is much better than Geelong's. Their first five or six players picked are better overall, but their last five or six are not, and the players in their VFL team are not as good either.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

Sam Fisher on the bench

Please open the other eye.

More than 6 players from st kilda would get games for us, you forgot Gilbert, Baker, Gardiner, milne and even Blake would get games, Jones would be a starter as well not just every now and then. If the two teams were to merge then it wouldn't be 16 Collingwood players and 6 Saints players, it would be close to a 50/50 split.

 

[KissStephanie]

Please open the other eye.

Is it okay if I have my opinion, or would you prefer me to have your opinion?

More than 6 players from st kilda would get games for us

I mentioned more than six. I mentioned seven.

you forgot Gilbert, Baker, Gardiner, milne and even Blake would get games,

Not in my opinion, and I didn't forget them at all.

Jones would be a starter as well not just every now and then.

Possibly, and he makes the seventh player I mentioned.

If the two teams were to merge then it wouldn't be 16 Collingwood players and 6 Saints players, it would be close to a 50/50 split.

Not in my opinion it wouldn't be. I believe that there would be at least fourteen Collingwood players as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Yes we have no stars.

Didak, Swan, Pendlebury, Thomas, Ball, Jolly, O'Brien, Davis (at least last year) are all plodders that get by on reputation.

I think when the media says we have no stars, they MEAN to say, "They have no media darlings we jizz over for no real reason".

Big difference, but I understand political correctness doesn't allow that exact wording. Easier to say they have no superstars.

Despite the fact that we have more than most sides do.

 

[magpiewarrior]

Yes we have no stars.

Didak, Swan, Pendlebury, Thomas, Ball, Jolly, O'Brien, Davis (at least last year) are all plodders that get by on reputation.

I think when the media says we have no stars, they MEAN to say, "They have no media darlings we jizz over for no real reason".

Big difference, but I understand political correctness doesn't allow that exact wording. Easier to say they have no superstars.

Despite the fact that we have more than most sides do.

It's not often that I agree with you Ed but this time you have hit the nail right on the head. The media flogs, particularly the hypocrites that slagged off Eddie when he was calling games on Nine, are so anti-Collingwood that they don't rate our stars like they do their darlings from other teams. Well I say F*** em, the old saying is that a champion team will beat a team of champions well ours is both and they can all produce for themselves or assist their team-mates to produce. We don't have the egos of the 'glamour' players from other teams to disrupt us and all these media flogs had better get used to having the sour look on their face because we have the making of a dynasty. We are good enough now to take on the best of the AFL and I think that we are still 1-2 years away from our current teams' peak. Following this team peaking we still have players like Josh Thomas, JMac, Sinclaire, Rounds, Keefe, Reed, Shae Mac and Blight coming. No wonder Caro, Sheeds, Lethal, Walls and Robo aren't happy.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

Is it okay if I have my opinion, or would you prefer me to have your opinion?

Who said you couldn't have an opinion If you honestly believe that Sam Fisher would start on the bench in our team then good luck to you but you obviously don't watch enough saints games. I would be interested to see your back six if neither him nor Gilbert could get a start.

 

[Paddywhackers]

It wasn't true in 2002/3 and it isn't true now. We don't have a Buddy or a Judd and most of our best players have a flaw be it pace or footskills so we don't have the absolute standout players that some sides have. That may ultimately cost us another flag as it has done before but we are up where we are because we have a ruckman who is in the top bracket, a few mids who are there or raidly getting there and a few backs that just win their position most weeks which is their primary job.

The question I have is not do we have stars but how great are our stars? Will not having the the absolute top end elite cost us again? On yesterdays evidence it won't. On finals evidence pre 2010 it will. I'm hoping the recent evidence is very much a function of improvement and that in 3 years time we will look back at this side and say hindsight claims a number of the leagues top end players.

Judd and Franklin have flaws in their games. Expecially now. Every player bar maybe Gary Ablett has flaws in their game.

If one goes by that criterior the only star in the game is G Ablett and even his inconsistent past month signals he is human and inperfect. So possibly even no stars in the comp.

 

[kevind]

Most elite players either earn or confirm their status by standing up in finals against the best sides.

None of our top players has really achieved the status of elite in finals, so that is their challenge this year. If they perform well when it really counts, most of the football world( perhaps not one K Sheedy) will be turned around and use the word 'elite' on several players, particularly Swan.

If they fail however, critics would be quite right to question the 'elite' description.

 

[MarkT2]

Judd and Franklin have flaws in their games. Expecially now. Every player bar maybe Gary Ablett has flaws in their game.

If one goes by that criterior the only star in the game is G Ablett and even his inconsistent past month signals he is human and inperfect. So possibly even no stars in the comp.

Perfection doesn't exist in footballers. Perhaps I should add context to what I mean by flaws.

If Swan could kick to a better than average AFL standard he would be the best player in the competition but he is a below average kick. Presti is a great stopper but the very best full backs like Lake and Scarlett are also offensive weapons. Didak has sublime skills but is soft and ill disciplined. All 3 players are close to the top echelon but Hodge is better than Didak because he is also tough and was therefore a massive part of a winning GF team.

For a long time a large portion of our best players were slow and/or lacked finishing skills. Rocca and Tarrant (now Cloke) missed far too many gettable goals. Tarrant could have won us the 2002 GF in the 3rd quarter. Licuria countered a lack of pace reasonably effectively but turned it over too much. I could go on or I could go back to finals failures preceeding Davis back to Rene Kink and co.

Time and results will decide where this lot sit. I'm excited about Beams and Sidebottom in particular. I would not be at all surprised if in 3 years they are looked on as the absolute flag winning elite types. Added to Pendlebury & Thomas you can get away with Swans kicking and still have the best or near enough to midfield in the comp. That's a huge first step toward a flag winning era. It maybe just lacks a consitent Davis with finals form if Jolly remains fit. If you can put an effective back 6 like we have and forward firepower which we nearly have around it then you are a chance.

 

[MarkT2]

It's a myth; "stars" are normally annointed in retrospect anyway.

Only borderline ones. Carey was a star before 1996. Lockett and Ablett (snr) never won flags. None of them won Brownlows. Buckley was a star from early on.