What They're Saying - The Bulldogs Media Thread - Part 4

[Norm De Guerre]

The team sheets don’t mean much. He actually dropped down the pecking order in our mids last year despite Dunkley leaving. His CBAs went down from 53% to 30% as Treloar went past him as a preferred mid. I’m not commenting on the merits of his desire to play there, merely that it’s correct to say that he’s not predominantly playing as a midfielder, it’s mostly as a half forward and wing.

If you draw the line at defining a mid by centre bounce attendances you would be correct.

However the modern game isn't nearly as binary as that. The heat map that covers his career shows that he spends the vast majority of games playing through the middle of the ground as a defensive or forward mid. It matters not if he's playing on the wing or hf, he plays in the midfield.

People carry on like he spends his time freezing his nuts off in the forward pocket. Its just not true.

That he hasn't been able to break into a starting rotation isn't a slight on him. Its just an indication that he hasn't been able to grasp the opportunities presented to him and that the likes of Treloar, The Bont and Libba are an experienced and difficult nut to crack.

If he thinks that life will be any easier for him at Hawthorn with Newcombe, Day, Nash Et. al. then I have some bad news for him.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Hence why any article mentioning Baz as being played out of position are wrong. He has never played inside mid for us. His 2 high profile finals games stand out because of the once off goals.

 

[BeMoreBont]

If you draw the line at defining a mid by centre bounce attendances you would be correct.

However the modern game isn't nearly as binary as that. The heat map that covers his career shows that he spends the vast majority of games playing through the middle of the ground as a defensive or forward mid. It matters not if he's playing on the wing or hf, he plays in the midfield.

People carry on like he spends his time freezing his nuts off in the forward pocket. Its just not true.

That he hasn't been able to break into a starting rotation isn't a slight on him. Its just an indication that he hasn't been able to grasp the opportunities presented to him and that the likes of Treloar, The Bont and Libba are an experienced and difficult nut to crack.

If he thinks that life will be any easier for him at Hawthorn with Newcombe, Day, Nash Et. al. then I have some bad news for him.

This..

Yes Baz lines up at half forward for majority of centre bounces, but as soon as its bounced he's another midfielder. Bevo has even corrected media several times on this.

I do however understand that not being apart of the starting engine room would be deflating and a hit to the ego. If he or he's management can't see that the names mentioned above clearly outperformed him in that role and deserved priority, then they're severely deluded.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

This..

Yes Baz lines up at half forward for majority of centre bounces, but as soon as its bounced he's another midfielder. Bevo has even corrected media several times on this.

I do however understand that not being apart of the starting engine room would be deflating and a hit to the ego. If he or he's management can't see that the names mentioned above clearly outperformed him in that role and deserved priority, then they're severely deluded.

Has Baz actually said the words, or is it the case of media make it up and it becomes accepted fact. I get that Baz was annoyed at his performance last year, but was it because he was played out of position.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Why are people trying to suggest that in modern footy the high half-forward pushing up to be the +1 in the midfield or the winger is literally "another midfielder" when common parlance for "the midfield" or "inside mid" is generally accepted to be the 4-5 man rotation for starting litearlly on the ball, at centre bounces, once you account for injury/bench rotation.

It has correctly been pointed out that Smith was very much part of that rotation in 2022 (and 2020, though not in most games in 2021), and is not in 2023, despite losing Dunkley.

 

[Golden_6]

Ironically if Baz wants full time midfield minutes, the Dogs in 2025 would likely be able to provide it.

We’ll be in a bit of strife long term if we’re still relying on Libba (33), Treloar (32) and Macrae (31) in 2025 to carry large parts of the midfield.

2024 would have been a mess though with too many guys still playing good enough footy and needing to be played through there.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Unfortunately a lot of the news reports are true about Smith according to my sources...
• He wants to be played in the midfield and hates being played anywhere away from the midfield.
• He likes Bevo but hates how he is being played.
• Geelong and Hawthorn are into him but he has no interest in moving to Geelong so as it sits now Hawthorn is his preferred destination IF he does leave.
• Before he did his knee he was shaping up for the best pre-season/season of his career and if at the end of 2024 things hadn't changed internally he would 100% leave.
• Now after the knee everything has been thrown up in the air...

Thanks for the intel. Is there really much more opportunity at Hawthorn in the midfield? They have a pretty strong brigade of young midfielders and would seem the last area of need for them. I guess when a player like Baz wants to get to your club you just make it happen.

 

[TiAn_]

If you draw the line at defining a mid by centre bounce attendances you would be correct.

Sure, and I don’t, but I was responding to your post using the often arbitrary player placement on team sheets, and it’s a much more accurate indicator.

However the modern game isn't nearly as binary as that. The heat map that covers his career shows that he spends the vast majority of games playing through the middle of the ground as a defensive or forward mid. It matters not if he's playing on the wing or hf, he plays in the midfield.

I’m sure that would be true of most wings or half forwards. Even looking at our team, Macrae this year was clearly, to much conjecture, shifted into a similar half forward centric role, but still attended a higher percentage of CBAs than Smith. Mostly setting up near or adjacent to the contest and sometimes being at the coalface isn’t the same as the role that Bont or Libba (or this year Treloar) have, for example, which appears to be what he allegedly wants.

People carry on like he spends his time freezing his nuts off in the forward pocket. It’s just not true.

Perhaps, but equally he’s clearly not part of our first choice midfield group and spends the bulk of his time in a more outside role than the mids ahead of him.

That he hasn't been able to break into a starting rotation isn't a slight on him. It’s just an indication that he hasn't been able to grasp the opportunities presented to him and that the likes of Treloar, The Bont and Libba are an experienced and difficult nut to crack.

Agree, there’s a reason we sent those three to 80% of our CBAs this year and preferred them closest to the contest over Smith. But he’s shown in the past he can perform well in there at times (along with having some obvious weaknesses) and given his age and that of the players ahead of him there was an argument to suffer some short term pain and provide the opportunity to re-establish himself as more of a presence as a genuine mid this year if his pre-season earned it. Moot point now though.

If he thinks that life will be any easier for him at Hawthorn with Newcombe, Day, Nash Et. al. then I have some bad news for him.

They ain’t Bont and Libba but I agree generally.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Yep, there was clearly more opportunity for Smith to at least match his 2022 proportion of midfield time with no Dunkley, and Macrae's form dropping off meaning that we had to rotate him forward.

But instead, Smith's form himself didn't merit inclusion in the midfield, meaning:

• We gave Treloar much more on-ball mid time in 2023 compared to 2022
• Bont and Libba basically played exclusively on the ball after not necessarily doing that in 2022
• Daniel played a reasonable amount in the middle.

Given the "loss" of Dunkley and Macrae really from what was a very talented and very deep on-ball rotation, even if Smith had maintained his form, we desperately need him to be a valid on-ball option. Instead, his drop-off in form meant that he simply didn't merit inclusion back into it as the season went on. Five of his best seven or eight games were in the first 10 rounds of the season.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Why are people trying to suggest that in modern footy the high half-forward pushing up to be the +1 in the midfield or the winger is literally "another midfielder" when common parlance for "the midfield" or "inside mid" is generally accepted to be the 4-5 man rotation for starting litearlly on the ball, at centre bounces, once you account for injury/bench rotation.

Pushing up to be a +1 in the midfield by definition makes you a midfielder.

The "common parlance" of a midfielder or inside mid is an outdated practice that has little relevance in today's game. The prime example of this is the fact that we have an annual discussion ont how to combat congestion in the game. Something that never occurred when the game was more heavily structured around set positions. A game that even with the introduction of the 6/6/6 rule has all but left behind the notion of set positions or specialist outside of a handful of players playing in the ruck or key defensive or attacking posts. Its now a game made up of what were once called utilities.

It has correctly been pointed out that Smith was very much part of that rotation in 2022 (and 2020, though not in most games in 2021), and is not in 2023, despite losing Dunkley.

Yes, because Treloar has proven a much more effective component of that rotation and Smith was better used outside of it. Regardless he still plays the vast majority of his games in the midfield no matter how people choose to define that role.

 

[Planet Dogs]

I've made this point before: for Baz to achieve his signature ultra-cut physique requires him to have a very low body fat percentage. Staying at or below 5% for more than a short period (from what I've read) would/could lead to several serious adverse effects.

Yes, he did win his 2 minute time trial. But I question the wider impact on his overall health (and by implication his overall long-term performance as a footballer).

You would hope his management is on top of this (wouldn't hold my breath).

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Pushing up to be a +1 in the midfield by definition makes you a midfielder.

The "common parlance" of a midfielder or inside mid is an outdated practice that has little relevance in today's game. The prime example of this is the fact that we have an annual discussion ont how to combat congestion in the game. Something that never occurred when the game was more heavily structured around set positions. A game that even with the introduction of the 6/6/6 rule has all but left behind the notion of set positions or specialist outside of a handful of players playing in the ruck or key defensive or attacking posts. Its now a game made up of what were once called utilities.

But in terms of inside midfielders, even if one of the forward 6 pushes up in general play, by definition that they're being asked to not be in the centre bounce inherently implies a pecking order. If you're going to have to rest some of your onball rotation forward, naturally you want your better players being at the centre bounce rather than being at the forward 6, even if some players are more natural forwards than others. This certainly was the logic when we had dozens if not hundreds of centre bounces this season with a better forward Bont in the onball 3 and a weaker forward Macrae in the attacking 6.

And of course there's an inside and outside midfielder distinction, just that they're called wingers in today's game. And there's clearly defined roles in the phases of the game, even if some players are capable of playing multiple roles. You have to be blind to modern footy not to see it, e.g. modern wingers being key running and structural players covering the ground and 'holding' structural width. Oskar Baker and Caleb Poulter are obviously wingers for us and therefore outside midfielders, they're distinctly not inside midfielders. They basically didn't play any minute on the ground in 2023 when they weren't the designated wingers

Naturally we played some other players on the wing in occasions (Treloar rarely, Scott, Daniel and Williams etc.). The game is far too fluid to make intricate changes, unless players stuff up their rotations or whatever, the player that starts on the wing at any given centre bounce is likely to play there for the subsequent period of time in general play. So while Treloar was an "inside midfielder" in general the handful of times he started on the wing for us in 2023 he had to moonlight in that role for a few minutes, unnaturally but still fulfilling the role's instructions. Indeed, much of the discussion of McNeil's role is exactly this - he filled the "role" well on the wing, and actually timed his excursions into stoppages well structurally (getting more tackles than most wingers in the league), but ultimately falls out of favour because his inability to get involved in link-up play, playing many games with single-figure disposal tallies, which is much more important than tackling timing in stoppages in terms of contributing to a game, even in a "structural" position like the wing. I digress, but it feeds into why Smith might have felt aggrieved - we fundamentally demoted him in the pecking order within games, as some roles are less important and can influence games less, and naturally attending far fewer centre bounces is a far less important role.

Just because the game isn't 5 lines of 3 with 3 followers and players are capable of multiple roles within a game, doesn't mean that there still isn't very much distinct roles.

Naturally being the +1 forward to midfield is part of that - you have to understand structures well enough to know where/when to position yourself e.g. in a situation where there's a repeat ball up at a centre bounce. When they point and talk to each other!

Yes, because Treloar has proven a much more effective component of that rotation and Smith was better used outside of it. Regardless he still plays the vast majority of his games in the midfield no matter how people choose to define that role.

But this back to the central point - Smith is as much of a "natural" onballer as Bont or Macrae or Libba or Treloar (and more than Daniel), it's just that we emphasised the use of our best players on the ball as much as possible in 2023. We (presumably) were a better team in 2023 holding everything constant because we chose many times to restart play with Bont (or Treloar) in the middle 6 and Smith in the attacking 6, and not the other way around, irrespective of what Smith was asked to do thereafter. Smith only has his own form to blame, if he had played better football in general from an attacking 6 position we naturally would have wanted to bottle that general good play and unleash it on centre bounce and subsequent play combinations. But he wasn't, so we didn't.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

I've made this point before: for Baz to achieve his signature ultra-cut physique requires him to have a very low body fat percentage. Staying at or below 5% for more than a short period (from what I've read) would/could lead to several serious adverse effects.

Yes, he did win his 2 minute time trial. But I question the wider impact on his overall health (and by implication his overall long-term performance as a footballer).

You would hope his management is on top of this (wouldn't hold my breath).

Angle or lighting, that could be 7%-10%, not under 5%. He doesnt have the level of definition of a bodybuilder and they are often 3%-8% with muscles showing that detract from a traditional aesthetic. He definitely focuses effort on abs, shoulders, arms which is baffling for a footballer.

It doesnt need to be nearly that low though, its definitely a result of diet and continuous cut/bulk with high protein. I've been low as 9% and it required a level of discipline to maintain that was not sustainable.

 

[weltschmerz]

It doesnt need to be nearly that low though, its definitely a result of diet and continuous cut/bulk with high protein. I've been low as 9% and it required a level of discipline to maintain that was not sustainable.

He’s been a “chicken breast, egg whites, berries, green veg” type since before he was drafted.

 

[St 07]

He definitely focuses effort on abs, shoulders, arms which is baffling for a footballer.

Could you elaborate here? Often I look at Dylan Shiel and think "how much of that is actually serviceable" are you saying it's not focused on Core strength + quads/legs for Smith?

 

[St 07]

He’s been a “chicken breast, egg whites, berries, green veg” type since before he was drafted.

And medication (no slight) but it does help in that regard

 

[dogwatch]

He’s been a “chicken breast, egg whites, berries, green veg” type since before he was drafted.

Will Minson would disapprove.

 

[hutchy31]

Thanks for the intel. Is there really much more opportunity at Hawthorn in the midfield? They have a pretty strong brigade of young midfielders and would seem the last area of need for them. I guess when a player like Baz wants to get to your club you just make it happen.

I think they'd make it happen if they could, he's a high-profile and very marketable player who's shown he can play well in finals. He's dropped off the past two years and a LTI complicates matters further, but they'll do it if they can.

I'm with you though, I'd be surprised if he's playing big centre/midfield minutes with the Hawthorn crew that are already there. He'll play a decent amount of wing/half forward there as well.

As a couple of others have said, if he genuinely wants to play majority midfield and that's his priority, then he'd be better staying where he is. Libba and Macrae will be gone or nearing retirement by the time Baz is in his prime, and alongside Sanders he could be the future of the midfield.

Rozee is a more natural forward and better ball user so this might be a disingenuous comparison, but after playing the majority forward for his first few years now Boak is near the end (and Wines is fading) now it's him and Butters driving the midfield and in leadership positions. That's there for Smith if he can improve his game, particularly his ball use going inside 50.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

Could you elaborate here? Often I look at Dylan Shiel and think "how much of that is actually serviceable" are you saying it's not focused on Core strength + quads/legs for Smith?

If you are focussing on size and definition (e.g. like a bodybuilder) you will be looking at isolating and growing muscles so that they appear a certain way through using weights (often cable weights not free form). This doesn't mean that you are actually stronger or can perform in an athletic context because it is largely through an artificial exercise regime that doesnt match activities you would engage in outside of the gym to create muscle growth. Your body is made up of many smaller and often important stabiliser muscles that never get huge or make you look like hercules. The balance and function between these allow you to run effectively, to take a hit, to carry weight on an odd angle (be an overall better specimen basically). Looking super cut doesnt mean that you have this at all, and often the opposite.

This is why you rarely see athletes look like body builders.

Bailey isnt quite the same as a body builder but he is clearly focussing on some parts of his body for aesthetics more than function out of footy (I dont think there is anything wrong with that). His abs obviously receive disproportionate work which is an aesthetic rather than function thing - they are more prominent than other muscles in his core (look at distribution below his pecs). His pecs are actually not particularly large (despite being defined) and I think disproportionately small to his other muscles compared to other players (his other muscles are just bigger...). His back and legs are no different to other footballers and this is where my thought that his fat percentage isn't absurdly low comes from. Look a the bottom image. In total he doesnt appear to be exercising for complete balance for athletic excellence, or across his whole body (like a body builder would). Man wants to build the cut brand with abs and shredded arms...

 

[gangsta deluxe]

For example I'd bet anything Petracca would have calves and quads much larger than Bailey...

 

[ossie_21]

If you are focussing on size and definition (e.g. like a bodybuilder) you will be looking at isolating and growing muscles so that they appear a certain way through using weights (often cable weights not free form). This doesn't mean that you are actually stronger or can perform in an athletic context because it is largely through an artificial exercise regime that doesnt match activities you would engage in outside of the gym to create muscle growth. Your body is made up of many smaller and often important stabiliser muscles that never get huge or make you look like hercules. The balance and function between these allow you to run effectively, to take a hit, to carry wait on an odd angle (be an overall better specimen basically). Looking super cut doesnt mean that you have this at all, and often the opposite.

This is why you rarely see athletes look like body builders.

Bailey isnt quite the same as a body builder but he is clearly focussing on some parts of his body for aesthetics more than function out of footy (I dont think there is anything wrong with that). His abs obviously receive disproportionate work which is an aesthetic rather than function thing - they are more prominent than other muscles in his core (look at distribution below his pecs). His pecs are actually not particularly large (despite being defined) and I think disproportionately small to his other muscles compared to other players (his other muscles are just bigger...). His back and legs are no different to other footballers and this is where my thought that his fat percentage isn't absurdly low comes from. Look a the bottom image. In total he doesnt appear to be exercising for complete balance for athletic excellence, or across his whole body (like a body builder would). Man wants to build the cut brand with abs and shredded arms...
View attachment 1882197

You must have a fap bank that any female Baz fan would envy with that anatomical research

 

[weltschmerz]

If you are focussing on size and definition (e.g. like a bodybuilder) you will be looking at isolating and growing muscles so that they appear a certain way through using weights (often cable weights not free form). This doesn't mean that you are actually stronger or can perform in an athletic context because it is largely through an artificial exercise regime that doesnt match activities you would engage in outside of the gym to create muscle growth. Your body is made up of many smaller and often important stabiliser muscles that never get huge or make you look like hercules. The balance and function between these allow you to run effectively, to take a hit, to carry wait on an odd angle (be an overall better specimen basically). Looking super cut doesnt mean that you have this at all, and often the opposite.

This is why you rarely see athletes look like body builders.

Bailey isnt quite the same as a body builder but he is clearly focussing on some parts of his body for aesthetics more than function out of footy (I dont think there is anything wrong with that). His abs obviously receive disproportionate work which is an aesthetic rather than function thing - they are more prominent than other muscles in his core (look at distribution below his pecs). His pecs are actually not particularly large (despite being defined) and I think disproportionately small to his other muscles compared to other players (his other muscles are just bigger...). His back and legs are no different to other footballers and this is where my thought that his fat percentage isn't absurdly low comes from. Look a the bottom image. In total he doesnt appear to be exercising for complete balance for athletic excellence, or across his whole body (like a body builder would). Man wants to build the cut brand with abs and shredded arms...
View attachment 1882197

He’s said in an interview that he would probably be a bodybuilder if he wasn’t a footballer, so I’d assume he definitely looks up to and is inspired by them.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

You must have a fap bank that any female Baz fan would envy with that anatomical research

lol don’t think you’d like a bodybuilding tournament somehow

That was an egregiously poor analysis based of a google image search

 

[weltschmerz]

For example I'd bet anything Petracca would have calves and quads much larger than Bailey...

Rhylee West comes to mind as a player who doesn’t skip leg day. He has that nuggety build, and you can see it when he just breaks tackles because of that strength through the hips. Good attribute.

 

[Northernsoul74]

I think they'd make it happen if they could, he's a high-profile and very marketable player who's shown he can play well in finals. He's dropped off the past two years and a LTI complicates matters further, but they'll do it if they can.

I'm with you though, I'd be surprised if he's playing big centre/midfield minutes with the Hawthorn crew that are already there. He'll play a decent amount of wing/half forward there as well.

As a couple of others have said, if he genuinely wants to play majority midfield and that's his priority, then he'd be better staying where he is. Libba and Macrae will be gone or nearing retirement by the time Baz is in his prime, and alongside Sanders he could be the future of the midfield.

Rozee is a more natural forward and better ball user so this might be a disingenuous comparison, but after playing the majority forward for his first few years now Boak is near the end (and Wines is fading) now it's him and Butters driving the midfield and in leadership positions. That's there for Smith if he can improve his game, particularly his ball use going inside 50.

So you’re saying Smith for Butters? In.