You're treating the statement in isolation when it was referring to what you'd need on top of what Judd and Kennedy had already delivered to Carlton/WCE
Who won the Judd/Kennedy trade?
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Garlic muncher
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Judge by father sons now.
If Kennedy has at least one son, Swans win.
Judd has three, so is ahead ATM
If Kennedy has at least one son, Swans win.
Judd has three, so is ahead ATM
- Sep 15, 2011
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Quality meltdown, would read again.
How about, The WCE have one of the best KPPs in the league and Carlton have a keen supporter.
kane249
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I don't think I've ever seen a mod melt quite like that before
lmach
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Lol.
Disingenuous much? He may have still been perceived as that, at the time, but we quickly learned that Carlton's Judd and his dodgy groin was no longer the most dominant force in the game. So you essentially gave up a very, very good, but not great, injury-plagued midfielder for '"one elite player" who's won the last two Coleman Medals and is a good chance to add to that tally. He's also been your leading goal kicker 5 times. You ******* blew them out. I don't know why you're overstating Judd's loss and understating Kennedy's impact to such an extent. Just to be contrarian?
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Dude, he won a Brownlow when Carlton finished 5th.
If he was in a decent team for the second half of his career he would have racked up another couple of Brownlows.
He was better than very very good, and certainly better than great.
Dude, Matt Priddis won a Brownlow. Who cares? Should have been suspended that year anyway. Splitting hairs over how he played at Carlton doesn't really change my opinion that WC blitzed the trade. Sorry. Even if he was super duper great he still wasn't the best player in the game after leaving West Coast.
Some thoughts on this:
- Carlton did not get Judd to 'win a premiership'. We were an absolute rabble prior to his arrival - finished bottom 2 in five of the previous 6 seasons, very few signs of improvement, and a shambles on and off the field. We got Judd to get the club some respectability again - to provide some leadership and lift us out of what was a shocking lack of leadership. Think of it like Brisbane getting Dangerfield now (no-one would expect a premiership in that scenario...) - only Carlton were far worse at the time. Judd took us to finals within 2 years, won a Brownlow and a string of All Australians, and more importantly, helped the club move past its Elliot-era mire. We got what we paid for - and really, only a bit of bad luck prevented us from maybe even going further while Judd was in his peak (the Fevola departure, Nick Stevens injury, some badly timed injuries to key players, and the 2012 injury crisis that saw us fall apart and sack Ratten after looking like premiership favourites when we were fit and healthy in round 3).
- Kennedy would not have been the same player at Carlton. West Coast built him into the superstar he is today. At Carlton at the time, we had Fevola and Waite still young, and had just drafted Kreuzer (and Hampson with a top 20 pick the year before). Kennedy looked out of sorts in Navy Blue - and full credit to West Coast for turning things around. In hindsight, Fevola ended up leaving 2 years later, Waite could never stay healthy, and Kreuzer/Hampson failed as forwards (with Kreuzer also having injury worries). Maybe Kennedy would have had opportunities with us - who knows...
- I think you have to discount trades for time. The further away from the date of the trade, the less certainty there is. Things that happen in 2017 aren't really relevant to the trade itself - there's an alternate world where Kennedy has Waite's injury problems instead, Carlton finish top 4 ahead of West Coast in 2011 rather than 5th, fluke a run to a grand final, and suddenly things look better... there's probably also an alternate world where the trade doesn't happen, Kennedy flames out of the league in 2 yaers due to lack of opportunity, Judd wins 2 Brownlows and another premiership at West Coast, etc. 2017 is too far away to have been predicatble at the time (just think of how much the league has changed)
All up, I think Carlton won the trade at the time, and I still think so today. If you make the same trade 10 times and roll the dice randomly for luck and all the other factors that go into it, I think Carlton win 7/10, with the current scenario almost the worst case for the Blues. It's fair to say that it is Carlton's fault in a lot of cases (our drafting and recruiting post Judd-trade was abominable); that doesn't change the actual trade itself, it just says that we needed more than Judd to fix things (and we still do...)
- Carlton did not get Judd to 'win a premiership'. We were an absolute rabble prior to his arrival - finished bottom 2 in five of the previous 6 seasons, very few signs of improvement, and a shambles on and off the field. We got Judd to get the club some respectability again - to provide some leadership and lift us out of what was a shocking lack of leadership. Think of it like Brisbane getting Dangerfield now (no-one would expect a premiership in that scenario...) - only Carlton were far worse at the time. Judd took us to finals within 2 years, won a Brownlow and a string of All Australians, and more importantly, helped the club move past its Elliot-era mire. We got what we paid for - and really, only a bit of bad luck prevented us from maybe even going further while Judd was in his peak (the Fevola departure, Nick Stevens injury, some badly timed injuries to key players, and the 2012 injury crisis that saw us fall apart and sack Ratten after looking like premiership favourites when we were fit and healthy in round 3).
- Kennedy would not have been the same player at Carlton. West Coast built him into the superstar he is today. At Carlton at the time, we had Fevola and Waite still young, and had just drafted Kreuzer (and Hampson with a top 20 pick the year before). Kennedy looked out of sorts in Navy Blue - and full credit to West Coast for turning things around. In hindsight, Fevola ended up leaving 2 years later, Waite could never stay healthy, and Kreuzer/Hampson failed as forwards (with Kreuzer also having injury worries). Maybe Kennedy would have had opportunities with us - who knows...
- I think you have to discount trades for time. The further away from the date of the trade, the less certainty there is. Things that happen in 2017 aren't really relevant to the trade itself - there's an alternate world where Kennedy has Waite's injury problems instead, Carlton finish top 4 ahead of West Coast in 2011 rather than 5th, fluke a run to a grand final, and suddenly things look better... there's probably also an alternate world where the trade doesn't happen, Kennedy flames out of the league in 2 yaers due to lack of opportunity, Judd wins 2 Brownlows and another premiership at West Coast, etc. 2017 is too far away to have been predicatble at the time (just think of how much the league has changed)
All up, I think Carlton won the trade at the time, and I still think so today. If you make the same trade 10 times and roll the dice randomly for luck and all the other factors that go into it, I think Carlton win 7/10, with the current scenario almost the worst case for the Blues. It's fair to say that it is Carlton's fault in a lot of cases (our drafting and recruiting post Judd-trade was abominable); that doesn't change the actual trade itself, it just says that we needed more than Judd to fix things (and we still do...)
Took Kennedy a while to perform at WCE while Judd was up and about and JK still kicking on after Judd retired. Was always gonna happen given the age of each player. Baffles me that some consider this inevitable snapshot in time as a factor in determining the value of this trade. There was a before, there will be an after.
I think the poster got it wrong. It was an MVP the year Carlton finished 5th. Matt Priddis didn't snag one of those. Why did Judd have to be the best player in the league? Kennedy never has been. I don't get it. That said, I'd say it's arguable Judd was at times and definitely top 3. His 2011 (MVP) season was phenomenal.
Talk about overstating and understating. You're just doing it the other way round.
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In this debate, why do people knock Judd for not winning a premiership at Carlton? It's not like Kennedy has led the Eagles to a heap of success himself by comparison. Since 2008, they've made the finals the same number of times as Carlton did with Judd (4), and they've had four seasons of single-digit wins, while Carlton only had two with Judd, in his final two seasons. On an individual scale, I don't think Kennedy two Coleman Medals necessarily trump Judd's Brownlow (2010) and MVP award (2011) he won at Carlton, either.
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For a long time I would have said Carlton won the trade as they got Judd, but watching them last season without a forward line, I would now say WCE won the trade.
Carlton with Kennedy & Betts with that young mid-field would be a top eight side.
Carlton with Kennedy & Betts with that young mid-field would be a top eight side.
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Its true that neither of them have a premiership post the trade deal but if we look at Carlton, with Kennedy in that forward line, they would be in contention, while WCE haven won a flag, they have been there about's and have made a GF only two years ago.
On an individual level, Judd's career at Carlton was outstanding and its just unfortunate for him that he played in the weakest Carlton side we have ever seen, if the question was who is the better player, I would say Judd was but in terms of team success the WCE have looked a better side in recent years than Carlton even though they have made the finals on a similar number of times.
Maybe because that's what he was recruited to do.
00Stinger
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While I don't think Carlton lost the trade as badly as some are making out, that is a pretty stupid comment. It doesn't matter if you roll the dice and Carlton would win 7/10 times if you only roll it once and WCE won.
Three number 1 picks and Judd.
That smell they were cooking must have been mediocrity soup.
Ironic to the call of posters at that time, which was - one player won't win you a flag. Now it appears BF had it wrong and indeed one player was meant to win Carlton a flag lest the whole trade be a fail.
Honestly, I've never heard a more stupid means of assessment. Carlton's recruiting was atrocious under Hughes. They wouldn't have won a flag with either player. And while only opinion, I can't see JK having taken Carlton as far as Judd did as a player, let alone further.
This discussion is premature.
Bigfooty should really be focusing its attention on who won the Fraser Gehrig for Kerr and David Sierakowski trade.
Bigfooty should really be focusing its attention on who won the Fraser Gehrig for Kerr and David Sierakowski trade.
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Sorry what?
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Well sure, Judd has retired and Kennedy is still playing. That was always going to be the odds-on outcome given the difference in age. But that does not, on its own, tip the balance in WC's favour.
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What's disingenuous?
Judd at Carlton was still pretty bloody handy. He won another Brownlow there and was probably second only to Ablett as the game's best midfielder. Granted, his peak was probably 2004-06 but let's not overstate how much he dropped off.
How do reason that Judd was "not great"?
See above.
Well, he's been WC's first-choice key forward so that's not that big a surprise, is it?
Hardly.
I'm not doing either.
Carlton got the best midfielder in the game aged 24 and WC got one elite forward in return, who was by no means a sure thing at the time of the trade. Plus pick 3, which delivered Masten, who is a witch's hat on wheels and a chronic disappointment. Plus pick 20, which delivered SFA.
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