Opinion 2015 Starting 22 for Round 1

[theflea]

For mine:

FB: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance Vlastuin
C: Ellis Cotchin Conca
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
FF: Vickery Riewoldt McDonough
Fol: Maric Edwards Miles
Int: Grigg, Grimes, Lennon, Hunt

Emg: Batchelor, Knights, Newman, Petterd

Like this team but would omit Grimes and Grigg for Gordon and Lloyd/Knights.

 

[theflea]

It's funnny, when we tried to go down that path heading into 2014 by moving Martin down there and practically everyone abused Hardwick for making the move saying it was stupid to use a midfielder like Martin in that role and yet here we are at the end of the season and people want to see a midfielder being played across HB.

Last year I was a fan of having Martin being played across HB as it provided us drive out of the back line, but the problem soon became that there wasn't enough class up the ground to capitalise on him winning the ball down there and sending it forward. So we reverted to having Martin forward and the same type of back line set up as I'm suggesting now, with the midfielders pushing deep into D50 to help out. That is how all the best sides defend as a team, they push back in numbers and make it hard for the opposition to find open space.

The way you seem to want us to play is to have the back line do all the work to stop the opposition and win the ball and then counter attack, all that is going to do is leave us open to being heavily scored against as we'll be outnumbered. By having our midfielders and HFF/FP push up the ground the players won't be working as hard and the second benefit is that we create space for the likes of Riewoldt Vickery and Griffiths to work in.

Take a look at Hawthorn Sydney Fremantle Geelong & Port and tell me which of their midfielders line up across HBF? None of them really use midfielders in that role. They all rely on defenders to play those roles with support from midfield types pushing back in support. Now I know you're probably going to throw up the likes of Hodge & Mitchell at Hawthorn and McVeigh at Sydney but those 3 are allowed to play back there at times because those sides have such depth in their midfields that they can get away with using these guys in that role when needed. The rest use their midfielders in midfield/forward roles and defenders through the back line. That is what makes those sides much more dangerous than us as all their attacking weapons are where they can do the most damage, not where they can't hurt the opposition sitting at HB.


I agree he is a stopper first, but he has also shown that he can play the rebounding role at times. The key is as I said to find the balance between trying to shut an opponent down and providing that run and carry out of the back line. Rance had to do the same thing as early on he was all about attack, but found the balance where he defends first and then set up rebound once the ball has been won.

I think you have shot down your own argument here. You say none of them do it, then in the same breath quote players that are just that.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I think you have shot down your own argument here. You say none of them do it, then in the same breath quote players that are just that.

It's like debating ones self and mastering it.

 

[_RT_]

Who mentioned Martin in the backlist?
And I didn't day mids can't drop back, what I'm saying is if you have 3 defenders that can hold their own defensively and still offer rebound run and skill you are on to a good thing...
You mentioned the hawks well they have Gibson, birchall, hodge, Mitchell and others all capable of creativity and run, as for swans they play with 16 midfielders a ruck and 5 KPP so don't use them to support your argument
Port are all runners bar a few key players and the cats have had 10 years of defenders who can defend and create as they were the masters at it.
What I am saying is if you rely on all your run from your mids they will tire, if you have well rounded footballers ie back men that can defend 1 on 1 and run and carry as we'll combined with HFF that can take an over head mark and also run and create then you have a far more potent side and one that is far more likely to stand up in finals than a side that has just 1 rebounder in houli... Stop him and you are toast
Also when a good coach mans up your loose man and the defenders actually have to deal 1 on 1 you get found out, guys like Morris, Chaplin, Houli and batch were all found out.
Now if you replace Morris with Vlas you have a taller more composed defender who adds creativity
Add conca and hunt to the back flanks and both can defend and run and carry?.
That leave Cochin, miles, edwards, Ellis and someone else? to do the middle work with a lids and Martin rotating mid and fwd flank, - now we are talking?

You mentioned having a midfielder play across HB to give us that rebound run & carry. We tried that with Martin at the start of this season and posters soon started to say Hardwick had lost his mind by playing him there.

The Hawks example as you've shown just back up what I'm saying Hodge and Mitchell are midfielders who push back to support their back line. While the Swans don't play 16 midfielders, Shaw, Nick Smith & Malceski aren't midfielders they are defenders, who perform the rebounding role well. Port might be all runners, but again they have dedicated defenders who play defence and provide that rebound, same with Geelong. This is what I am saying we should be aiming at having. Dedicated defenders who can give rebound from defence, but can also actually defend when it's needed. In doing that it allows these sides to play their better players in roles that make them more dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying about relying on the midfielders tiring, but that is why you have rotations. Just think about it, where are Martin Cotchin Deledio Miles & Edwards going to be more dangerous when resting? Across the HBF where they are stopping goals or sitting up forward where they have all shown they can be goal kickers?

 

[_RT_]

I think you have shot down your own argument here. You say none of them do it, then in the same breath quote players that are just that.

They are midfielders who push back in support, rather than starting as HBF. If I understood Tango right he wanted midfielders permanently across HB, which none of those sides do. Hawthorn is probably the closest with Hodge, but when needed he moves into the midfield to lead the way. They can also get away with it because of the depth they have through the midfield & forward. As I said we don't have that sort of depth at the moment as we saw the last few years.

 

[theflea]

They are midfielders who push back in support, rather than starting as HBF. If I understood Tango right he wanted midfielders permanently across HB, which none of those sides do. Hawthorn is probably the closest with Hodge, but when needed he moves into the midfield to lead the way. They can also get away with it because of the depth they have through the midfield & forward. As I said we don't have that sort of depth at the moment as we saw the last few years.

Actually Hodge and Mitchell have been playing as the designated HBF's, not pushing back as you suggest. I would like to clarify what I call mids, as it seems you have a different view. Imo other than KPP's everyone else is essentially a midfielder even if they are flankers who have to be able to defend first. This is where the game is, so the language has to adapt. So when I say midfielders it is essentially the smalls in this area. Also when I say I like midfielders in the area, it also means that they 'can also' rotate thru other positions which mean versatility, which gives the team flexibility on game day. I for 1 didn't bemoan the idea of dusty across the HBL purely because its gives him another skill set. Most players are in the area anyway at point in the game when you compress after a point or fwd 50 entry and we then are on a rebound 50 play.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Actually Hodge and Mitchell have been playing as the designated HBF's, not pushing back as you suggest. I would like to clarify what I call mids, as it seems you have a different view. Imo other than KPP's everyone else is essentially a midfielder even if they are flankers who have to be able to defend first. This is where the game is, so the language has to adapt. So when I say midfielders it is essentially the smalls in this area. Also when I say I like midfielders in the area, it also means that they 'can also' rotate thru other positions which mean versatility, which gives the team flexibility on game day. I for 1 didn't bemoan the idea of dusty across the HBL purely because its gives him another skill set. Most players are in the area anyway at point in the game when you compress after a point or fwd 50 entry and we then are on a rebound 50 play.

Dustin Martin as an example is plain wrong and the move was silly , if you wanted to teach the kid accountability then play him there for a quarter against the weaker teams and surprise opposition don't telegraph it to the opposition over an entire preseason and say this is what we are doing and it's going to work especially with such an attacking forward / mid . Using Hodge as an example is very poor because that's a bloke that played of the backline in the juniors as wel as on the ball and already had a defending mindset since under 12's. Mitchell well yet maybe but he's also got twice the tank Martin has and had played 150 plus games before deciding to do it, plus they had the mid field depth to pull it off.

 

[theflea]

Dustin Martin as an example is plain wrong and the move was silly , if you wanted to teach the kid accountability then play him there for a quarter against the weaker teams and surprise opposition don't telegraph it to the opposition over an entire preseason and say this is what we are doing and it's going to work especially with such an attacking forward / mid . Using Hodge as an example is very poor because that's a bloke that played of the backline in the juniors as wel as on the ball and already had a defending mindset since under 12's. Mitchell well yet maybe but he's also got twice the tank Martin has and had played 150 plus games before deciding to do it, plus they had the mid field depth to pull it off.

I agree Martins' best place if centre fwd, but I still like the idea that they did. I also would say your assuming it was to be a 'permanent' role as I didn't read it that way. The more players that can play more roles that is better for the team. Just because you say its wrong and silly doesn't make it so. That just your opinion.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I agree Martins' best place if centre fwd, but I still like the idea that they did. I also would say your assuming it was to be a 'permanent' role as I didn't read it that way. The more players that can play more roles that is better for the team. Just because you say its wrong and silly doesn't make it so. That just your opinion.

Yes it does , it was a complete waste of time. That's what training is for. What about all the talk last year about it not being about development anymore and you have to earn your spot. Martin didn't earn that position , we had way more qualified players to play half back.

 

[_RT_]

Actually Hodge and Mitchell have been playing as the designated HBF's, not pushing back as you suggest. I would like to clarify what I call mids, as it seems you have a different view. Imo other than KPP's everyone else is essentially a midfielder even if they are flankers who have to be able to defend first. This is where the game is, so the language has to adapt. So when I say midfielders it is essentially the smalls in this area. Also when I say I like midfielders in the area, it also means that they 'can also' rotate thru other positions which mean versatility, which gives the team flexibility on game day. I for 1 didn't bemoan the idea of dusty across the HBL purely because its gives him another skill set. Most players are in the area anyway at point in the game when you compress after a point or fwd 50 entry and we then are on a rebound 50 play.

I agree that Hodge & Mitchell play HB, but IMO they have only gone there in recent times as the Hawks midfield has increased depth. Our midfield isn't as deep as the Hawks midfield so we don't have that luxury yet. Hopefully players like Conca Vlastuin Lennon McDonough and co can step up and give us that depth. If/when they do we'll be able to send natural midfield types to HB. Until then I'd rather stick with the dedicated defenders in the back line and use our better players where they can do the most damage which is midfield/forward.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I agree that Hodge & Mitchell play HB, but IMO they have only gone there in recent times as the Hawks midfield has increased depth. Our midfield isn't as deep as the Hawks midfield so we don't have that luxury yet. Hopefully players like Conca Vlastuin Lennon McDonough and co can step up and give us that depth. If/when they do we'll be able to send natural midfield types to HB. Until then I'd rather stick with the dedicated defenders in the back line and use our better players where they can do the most damage which is midfield/forward.

Hodge started there EAD , played there for about 4 years before going into the middle. Did you only start watching footy in 2006?

 

[_RT_]

Hodge started there EAD , played there for about 4 years before going into the middle. Did you only start watching footy in 2006?

I know Hodge started there, but then graduated to the midfield where he played his best football and has now returned to the HBF as younger options have come through.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I know Hodge started there, but then graduated to the midfield where he played his best football and has now returned to the HBF as younger options have come through.

Martin never played there as a junior , it's not the end of the world but it's a really bad comparison.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

When games have to be won Hodge plays midfield .

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

When games have to be won Hodge plays midfield .

I'm just confused as to the point of comparing Martins 1 week experiment at Half back to Luke Hodge considering Hodge played there in juniors and his first 60-80 games. This is nonsense on stilts

 

[Infamy]

Martin never played there as a junior , it's not the end of the world but it's a really bad comparison.

Hodge was a gun midfielder as a junior but struggled there early at AFL level so was moved to half back, similar to Goddard in that way. They both then adapted to AFL and moved back into the midfield.
So not sure what that has to do with Martin playing down back as a junior or not as Hodge didn't really play there as a junior either.

 

[DrMike]

I like Martins drive out of defense

(I wouldn't start him there)

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Hodge was a gun midfielder as a junior but struggled there early at AFL level so was moved to half back, similar to Goddard in that way. They both then adapted to AFL and moved back into the midfield.
So not sure what that has to do with Martin playing down back as a junior or not as Hodge didn't really play there as a junior either.

martin has struggled in the mid field his whole career better play him down back . Nonsense on stilts

 

[TigerImposter]

Martin lost his creativity and attacking ability down back
He turned the ball over and cost us more goals than he created
The mere fact that he was quickly moved back to a mid/fwd position indicated it was a failed venture and was never practised again by DH
I give DH and his band of merry men 10 pts for thinking outside the box , but I will give them a 100 pts for aborting the mission
The end

 

[Infamy]

martin has struggled in the mid field his whole career better play him down back . Nonsense on stilts

That is not what I said

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Hodge was a gun midfielder as a junior but struggled there early at AFL level so was moved to half back, similar to Goddard in that way. They both then adapted to AFL and moved back into the midfield.
So not sure what that has to do with Martin playing down back as a junior or not as Hodge didn't really play there as a junior either.

Not only did Hodge play down back a lot in Juniors he has always had a defensive mindset compared to Martin that has always been a bit shy to pick up a man or run hard the other way.

 

[TigerImposter]

Hodgeys role has often been described as a quarterback role by the media and on one occasion Clarko mentioned it
I'm ignorant to NFL so once I google what a QB does I will establish some idea on what hodgeys role is
I tried finding info on his falcon days and Colac times , but couldn't find much on his role or position played
I did stumble accross that he was a Tiger supporter

 

[TigerImposter]

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=what+is+a+quarterback&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/lion...-star-luke-hodge/story-e6frf7jo-1225766580638


http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/hodg...700608257?nk=16b5b622f029b63f15b67dacb1300924

 

[theflea]

Yes it does , it was a complete waste of time. That's what training is for. What about all the talk last year about it not being about development anymore and you have to earn your spot. Martin didn't earn that position , we had way more qualified players to play half back.

We disagree then.

 

[theflea]

I agree that Hodge & Mitchell play HB, but IMO they have only gone there in recent times as the Hawks midfield has increased depth. Our midfield isn't as deep as the Hawks midfield so we don't have that luxury yet. Hopefully players like Conca Vlastuin Lennon McDonough and co can step up and give us that depth. If/when they do we'll be able to send natural midfield types to HB. Until then I'd rather stick with the dedicated defenders in the back line and use our better players where they can do the most damage which is midfield/forward.

I think we can do both, but it was more that I want to have this facility.