List Mgmt. 2023 Draft & Trade Hypotheticals

[Ticky009]

Key Dates:

Trade Period, October 6–18

• Restricted & Unrestricted Free Agency Period: Friday, October 6, 9am – Friday October 13, 5pm (bid matching ends Monday October 16, 5pm)
• Trade Period (1), picks & players: Monday, October 9, 9am – Wednesday October 18, 7.30pm

Quiet Period, October 19–November 20

• Trade Period (2), picks only: Monday, October 23, 9am – Friday November 10, 5pm
• List Lodgement 1*: Tuesday, October 31, 2pm
• Delisted Free Agency Period (1): Wednesday, November 1, 9am – Wednesday November 8, 5pm
• Delisted Free Agency Period (2): Friday, November 10, 9am–5pm
• List Lodgement 2*: Tuesday, November 14, 2pm

Draft Period, November 20–22

• Round 1 of the National Draft: Monday, November 20, time and venue TBA
• Trade Period (3), picks only: Tuesday, November 21, 5.45pm–6.30pm
• Round 2–end of the National Draft: Tuesday, November 21, 7pm until completion
• Rookie Promotions: Tuesday, November 21, after the National Draft
• Delisted Free Agency Period (3): Tuesday, November 21, after the National Draft
• List Lodgement 3*: Wednesday, November 22, 10am (optional; required for those participating in the PSD)
• Pre-Season Draft: Wednesday, November 22, 3pm
• Rookie Draft: Wednesday, November 22, 3.20pm
• Final List Lodgement*: Thursday, November 23, 4pm

* List lodgement dates are yet to be made public, so are approximate based on past history and the requirements of the AFL Rules. When lists are lodged, the number of players on the list must not exceed maximum list sizes. At the same time, clubs must provide the AFL with estimates of total player payments in the current and following year, which must prove the club is not and will not exceed the salary cap. (AFL Rules 5.3, 6.1, 6.8, 7.2, 7.9)

 

[SGBeach]

Don't take the gamble...trade this years 1st round out for one in next years. Preferable <10. Eg swap our 12 for future crows 9(as it stands now). They would have 10,12 & 14 this year. Swans would have 9, 11 and 19 in 2024. (On current positions)
Three picks in the 1st round next year in a potentially strong midfield 1st round draft, gives a lot of room to move.

Every pick is a gamble. To take a pick this year means the Swans know (or at least have a good idea) if the gamble will pay off by the time next years draft comes around.
The Swans have the equal 2nd least amount of players above 190cm in the comp. We need talls more than more mids.
I like the idea of strengthening next years hand (which we've already done by improving our future 2nd round pick to future p19)
In saying that, it seems the Swans want one (and are open to two) picks before Cleary, so I wouldn't trade out our p12 for a future pick.
Maybe trade back this year and up next year,,, something like p12 + future p19 for p19ish + future 1st.
This would allow a 2023 pick in that even(ish) 10-30 range and an upgrade into 2024 1st round (which could be anything in this even comp)
Still a fan of either Schoenmaker or Zakolsteski if we trade down. Plenty of upside to both and could develop with Edwards over the next couple of years.

 

[RUNVS]

"the ultimate sunset"
geez, that sounds very grim

Yes unfortunately Sydney is a club that does euthanase players upon retirement. I have heard it is painless though.

 

[Ticky009]

Looking at our list and list needs with a view to the draft and our pick 12. I know the "we always take best available" line...but
Defence-Tall
We generally don't draft KPDs
Defence-Medium-Small
Rampe and Lloyd are two years away from the ultimate sunset.
De Mattia and Leake are prime candidates here.
I like Leake because he is Rampe like. Tall at 187. Has a leap. Can kick goals too.
De Mattia has real pace and can play in all 3rds of the ground. At 185 could play small defender/general defender and midfield.
Midfield
We are stacked. Have brought in Adams and Jordon. Probably Cleary. Stephens out. Have Sheldrick, Roberts, Corey Warner and Mitchell pushing up for spots. No real needs here. Our best mids are mostly young and improving too.
Ruck
The addition of Grundy is the thing that dreams are made of. Arguably the 2nd best ruck for a packet of Samboys is unbelievable.
We have Ladhams as backup. Stretch at a stretch. Forwards like McLean and Amartey and Buller can ruck too.
We should pick up a rookie ruck. Cat B Caleb May or another Cat A prospect.
Forwards-Tall.
McDonald, McClean and Amartey if all are fit and available are a great trio.
McDonald is the young bull on the rise. Potential gun forward for the next 10 years.
McClean has stamped himself as a contested FF. Immovable. Reliable. Injury free. Defies all criticism. Keeps delivering.
Amartey is the wild card. Regularly injured but capable of winning games on his own with quick bags of goals. Then gets injured again.
Buller has apparently impressed and has played well in reserves.
Another developing KPF in Archer Reid would be a good addition at our pick.
Forwards-Medium.
Heeney and Hayward are best 22 here. Some may argue with that opinion.
Parker and Adams can rest here. With the addition of Adams Parker may play more forward. Adams will be around for 3 years. Another medium forward like Tholstrup would not be a bad option.
Forwards-Small.
Papley is a gun. If not THE best he is close.
Wicks is an honest small forward who provides good pressure and does alot of good things. I like him.
Konstanty is hopefully over his injuries and ready to press for games.
Apparently Rider is a potential Cat B pick here.

If there's a good defender available I feel that will be our first pick, its our weakest position depth wise and we sure felt it this year.

 

[.Shotties.]

Many people on here have said Dylan Stephan's was a wasted pick. I don't agree with that. He was very good in 2022. He was one of the few to stand up in the GF.

I think he loss of form has more to do with his relationships with both coaches & teammates....Say if Horse ended up at North, I think Stephens would do a Chol. Horse has had trouble with several players over the journey.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Cannot understand why WB didn't shop him this offseason given the other options they have developing and even ready to arrive.
Did Darcy end up being a spud?

sounds like the name of a particularly unfortunate retirement home

Qld has a nursing home in Sandgate called Eventide. One of the Wards is called Ebbtide. Good for Viking funerals I guess.

I wanted to rename the facility, 'Last Train to Clarkesville', which is somehow back on a topic in a sneaky way. I wonder if Clarke is a chance of being picked up as a DFA?

 

[Jewelsbon]

Many people on here have said Dylan Stephan's was a wasted pick. I don't agree with that. He was very good in 2022. He was one of the few to stand up in the GF. I think he loss of form has more to do with his relationships with both coaches & teammates. Every footy club in the country has personality clashes. Some are easy enough to overlook & the team just gets on with it. But personality clashes between coaches & players are much harder to fix and players leave due to this.

Marvior Chol left Richmond because he & Hardwick hate each other. Leigh Matthews put up with Akka for years even though he wanted to throttle him. Eventually, due to player pressure he sacked him & moved him on. Say if Horse ended up at North, I think Stephens would do a Chol. Horse has had trouble with several players over the journey. Every coach does so he is not Robinson Crusoe. Coaches, like Matthews, tend to put up with players they do not like if they fit into team plans. I am not sure Clarko, Horse, Hardwick do. I think McRae does that is why he wins a premiership in his second year.

On CPH2471 using BigFooty.com mobile app

My lordy you really do just make up s**t....

 

[Ticky009]

 

[Kiama Chris]

If possible I would prefer to convert someone who has been on our list for a while rather than starting fresh. My current thought is Roberts. Has a lot of those characteristics but is further down the path.
Remember Harry started as a winger and Smooch as a midfielder.

 

[Ticky009]

If possible I would prefer to convert someone who has been on our list for a while rather than starting fresh. My current thought is Roberts. Has a lot of those characteristics but is further down the path.
Remember Harry started as a winger and Smooch as a midfielder.

Perhaps, but we're still short on actual defenders and our recycling doesn't always work.

 

[Dan87]

Defensive mind set and team defence is so important the back pocket has turned into a position where it's more about how much rebound can we get from a player that can apply tackling pressure instead of a specialist defender.

I think we'll probably go the same way

I like Florent working on that position

 

[Kiama Chris]

Perhaps, but we're still short on actual defenders and our recycling doesn't always work.

Neither does drafting work every time as we just delisted two who didn't. Supposedly Vickery is intended for that role but I wonder if we need to draft another just 12 months later.
With Adams and probably Jordon now in front of him as well and likely Sheldrick too I'd like to think maybe we could get a bit inventive.
Both are contracted another 2 years until 2025.

 

[rustycrate]

Neither does drafting work every time as we just delisted two who didn't. Supposedly Vickery is intended for that role but I wonder if we need to draft another just 12 months later.
With Adams and probably Jordon now in front of him as well and likely Sheldrick too I'd like to think maybe we could get a bit inventive.
Both are contracted another 2 years until 2025.

Can see McInerney playing back(recycling). We do have a plethora of midfielders now. How to fit them all in?

 

[caesar88]

Defensive mind set and team defence is so important the back pocket has turned into a position where it's more about how much rebound can we get from a player that can apply tackling pressure instead of a specialist defender.

I think we'll probably go the same way

I like Florent working on that position

Wowee it's interesting how we can all see the game so differently. I feel like it's almost the complete opposite of what you've described.

I thought Brisbane's rebound from their defenders in the GF was excellent. Coleman was in the Norm Smith votes, McKenna was pinging around everywhere, he and Wilmot were arguably the two fastest blokes on the ground.

But when all is said and done they were killed by their lack of a match-up for Bobby Hill.

I think you absolutely have to win your match-ups around the ground and when leaving them in the hands of too many hybrid types like Florent, there's a greater chance of that match-up not going your way than if you have someone who specialises in them like a Cunningham.

Bulldogs found this out too in 2021 I reckon.

 

[Dan87]

Wowee it's interesting how we can all see the game so differently. I feel like it's almost the complete opposite of what you've described.

I thought Brisbane's rebound from their defenders in the GF was excellent. Coleman was in the Norm Smith votes, McKenna was pinging around everywhere, he and Wilmot were arguably the two fastest blokes on the ground.

But when all is said and done they were killed by their lack of a match-up for Bobby Hill.

I think you absolutely have to win your match-ups around the ground and when leaving them in the hands of hybrid types like Florent, there's a greater chance of that match-up not going your way than if you have someone who specialises in them like a Cunningham.

But coaches aren't finding a spot for a guy to lock down on Bobby Hill and even with us Cunningham was out of the side in 2022.

Back pocket is turning into an offensive position from what I can see

If Cunningham lights up pre season all good he can try and get a top 10 b n f spot again but it's not something I see happening around the comp. Could be wrong

 

[caesar88]

But coaches aren't finding a spot for a guy to lock down on Bobby Hill and even with us Cunningham was out of the side in 2022.

Back pocket is turning into an offensive position from what I can see

If Cunningham lights up pre season all good he can try and get a top 10 b n f spot again but it's not something I see happening around the comp. Could be wrong

Isaac Quaynor, Brandon Starcevich in this year's grand final sides, Jed Bews in last year's premiership side, Jake Bowey & Michael Hibberd in Melbourne's premiership side the year before would all suggest otherwise...

Having a low possession, overly defensive small/medium defender doesn't seem to be a hindrance to premiership success and if anything seems to be a common denominator with it.

 

[Kiama Chris]

But coaches aren't finding a spot for a guy to lock down on Bobby Hill and even with us Cunningham was out of the side in 2022.

Back pocket is turning into an offensive position from what I can see

If Cunningham lights up pre season all good he can try and get a top 10 b n f spot again but it's not something I see happening around the comp. Could be wrong

In a sense you're both correct. Some are trying and succeeding, others trying and failing, others not trying. Brisbane had Starcevich who is no mug but couldn't get it done on Hill. Harry has done very well on Cameron when in reasonable form. Not many do.
It's a difficult call whether to go for a lockdown or an attacker.
IMO Lloyd is our attacker. Blakey is both an interceptor and an attacker. I don't really know what Florent is but the coaches like it.
Maybe we need to pick a "Harry" when the opposition have a gun small forward and someone different if they don't. Sophie's choice.

 

[Dan87]

Isaac Quaynor, Brandon Starcevich in this year's grand final sides, Jed Bews in last year's premiership side, Jake Bowey & Michael Hibberd in Melbourne's premiership side the year before would all suggest otherwise...

Having a low possession, overly defensive small/medium defender doesn't seem to be a hindrance to premiership success and if anything seems to be a common denominator with it.

I don't really agree with these examples half of them are 90 kg 6 ft 2 types and the ones similar to Cunningham generate more rebound imo

 

[caesar88]

I don't really agree with these examples half of them are 90 kg 6 ft 2 types and the ones similar to Cunningham generate more rebound imo

Well you're moving the goalposts a little there if you want to bring height, weight etc. into it. Your comment was about specialist defenders and that's what all of them are.

Regardless of their size, they play on the small forwards, they don't get a lot of the ball (Bowey in 2021 had the highest disposal average at only 16), they're not prolific enough in a rebounding sense to make them relevant to that conversation (none qualified for top 50 rebounding players in the comp in any of those years.)

If you don't think Cunningham is good enough as a specialist defender compared to those players then fair enough. I'm just saying there are specialist defenders still around and premiership coaches are using them.

 

[Dan87]

Well you're moving the goalposts a little there if you want to bring height, weight etc. into it. Your comment was about specialist defenders and that's what all of them are.

Regardless of their size, they play on the small forwards, they don't get a lot of the ball (Bowey in 2021 had the highest disposal average at only 16), they're not prolific enough in a rebounding sense to make them relevant to that conversation (none qualified for top 50 rebounding players in the comp in any of those years.)

If you don't think Cunningham is good enough as a specialist defender compared to those players then fair enough. I'm just saying there are specialist defenders still around and premiership coaches are using them.

I'm cleary talking about back pockets, small defenders and how the position is changing and Florent suits

You then list a whole bunch of players that are not classic back pockets (small lock down only defenders) telling me they are and then tell me I'm moving the goal posts

Just lol

 

[HighReeve]

Well you're moving the goalposts a little there if you want to bring height, weight etc. into it. Your comment was about specialist defenders and that's what all of them are.

Regardless of their size, they play on the small forwards, they don't get a lot of the ball (Bowey in 2021 had the highest disposal average at only 16), they're not prolific enough in a rebounding sense to make them relevant to that conversation (none qualified for top 50 rebounding players in the comp in any of those years.)

If you don't think Cunningham is good enough as a specialist defender compared to those players then fair enough. I'm just saying there are specialist defenders still around and premiership coaches are using them.

Height and weight has always been a factor.

'Specialist defender' as opposed to playing majority of game time in the defensive six.

If Quaynor and Starcevich are recent examples, it proves the point you are arguing against - they have more to their games much better overhead/marking, providing intercepts and rebound and able to go with more varied opponents.

Cunningham has been solid for a long while and is a pretty good number 2 small def, but isn't really good enough on the top small forwards to make his selection worthwhile, while his disposal is usually reliable its generally also safe, and he seems to be good at organising etc, but eg the game against Brisbane, Zac Bailey was pivotal in winning it for Brisbane. MCG against Richmond, Shai Bolton couldn't be shut down and we lost.

 

[anotherletdown]

Qld has a nursing home in Sandgate called Eventide. One of the Wards is called Ebbtide. Good for Viking funerals I guess.

I wanted to rename the facility, 'Last Train to Clarkesville', which is somehow back on a topic in a sneaky way. I wonder if Clarke is a chance of being picked up as a DFA?

Clarke would be a great pick up for North funnily enough. Only 3 or 4 players over 25 in their squad

 

[caesar88]

Height and weight has always been a factor.

'Specialist defender' as opposed to playing majority of game time in the defensive six.

If Quaynor and Starcevich are recent examples, it proves the point you are arguing against - they have more to their games much better overhead/marking, providing intercepts and rebound and able to go with more varied opponents.

Cunningham has been solid for a long while and is a pretty good number 2 small def, but isn't really good enough on the top small forwards to make his selection worthwhile, while his disposal is usually reliable its generally also safe, and he seems to be good at organising etc, but eg the game against Brisbane, Zac Bailey was pivotal in winning it for Brisbane. MCG against Richmond, Shai Bolton couldn't be shut down and we lost.

You won't get any arguments from me re Cunningham being good enough in his role. I think he CAN be good (as he showed against Cameron at the Gabba earlier and on a few other occasions), but he can also be not so good, as you mention, so may always be borderline.

The point I was trying to make was that you'd take Cunningham's "good" every day of the week in the team. If he's shutting down the opposition's best defender each week then I don't think anyone would care if he's not providing overhead marking or intercepting or rebound, because there'd be others for that.

The original comment I replied to suggested that attacking was the key in that particular position and I just don't think it is. Even those players I cited - particularly Quaynor, who I think is a gun - may have other qualities, certainly more than Cunningham, but not enough to make them much of a factor in "attacking." I'd describe them still as largely defensive players.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Height and weight has always been a factor.

'Specialist defender' as opposed to playing majority of game time in the defensive six.

If Quaynor and Starcevich are recent examples, it proves the point you are arguing against - they have more to their games much better overhead/marking, providing intercepts and rebound and able to go with more varied opponents.

Cunningham has been solid for a long while and is a pretty good number 2 small def, but isn't really good enough on the top small forwards to make his selection worthwhile, while his disposal is usually reliable its generally also safe, and he seems to be good at organising etc, but eg the game against Brisbane, Zac Bailey was pivotal in winning it for Brisbane. MCG against Richmond, Shai Bolton couldn't be shut down and we lost.

Cunningham played on Cameron not Bailey.
Not sure who played on Bolton but he normally plays higher up the ground.
If Cunningham is #2 who is #1?

 

[rustycrate]

Height and weight has always been a factor.

'Specialist defender' as opposed to playing majority of game time in the defensive six.

If Quaynor and Starcevich are recent examples, it proves the point you are arguing against - they have more to their games much better overhead/marking, providing intercepts and rebound and able to go with more varied opponents.

Cunningham has been solid for a long while and is a pretty good number 2 small def, but isn't really good enough on the top small forwards to make his selection worthwhile, while his disposal is usually reliable its generally also safe, and he seems to be good at organising etc, but eg the game against Brisbane, Zac Bailey was pivotal in winning it for Brisbane. MCG against Richmond, Shai Bolton couldn't be shut down and we lost.

HighReeve has different interpretations of things to most IMO. I try to understand his point of view but I just don't.

 

[caesar88]

HighReeve has different interpretations of things to most IMO. I try to understand his point of view but I just don't.

I don't know that there is a "most" when it comes to this board rusty. I kinda like that two posters could be diametrically opposed on one subject but in complete agreement on another.

On this particular subject my ears will always prick up a little as you know some of my all-time favourite players have been small defenders (Smith, Lloyd) who might've been described as not multi-faceted enough.

Still an interesting discussion to have and one that I think the match selection committee would be having most weeks, albeit armed with far more knowledge than us lot!