Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[1061]

If Australia provoked conflict by continued incursions into Indonesian territory, most nations would support Indonesia's position and not ours (including some of our closest allies). Most of that support would be economic rather than military and many would take action designed to cripple us rather than supporting Indonesia as such.

So they stop buying livestock to be tortured in these countries and Australian domestic Meat prices drop as the farmers flood the market. Not to mention the jobs created in Australia to process the meat.

Or they stop buying our natural resources and again the miners have to sell within the country at a fairer price so our manufacturing sector fires up again. Again jobs jobs jobs.

Imagine the message Australia sending a few F18's to fly over Jakarta in a show of what we are actually capable of without any US Military hardware to help us out!

Any Asian Country targeting Australia would become a no go Zone for Aussie tourists.
Bali would be crippled.

The biggy of course is our alliance with New Zealand, I am joking although NZ would be with us 110% the Big one is the good ole USA who have a base in Darwin don't forget. Just imagine the devastation to the IDF if the Indonesian Air Force tried to attack Darwin with US warships there.

 

[DarwinRoo]

So they stop buying livestock to be tortured in these countries and Australian domestic Meat prices drop as the farmers flood the market. Not to mention the jobs created in Australia to process the meat.

Or they stop buying our natural resources and again the miners have to sell within the country at a fairer price so our manufacturing sector fires up again. Again jobs jobs jobs.

Imagine the message Australia sending a few F18's to fly over Jakarta in a show of what we are actually capable of without any US Military hardware to help us out!

Any Asian Country targeting Australia would become a no go Zone for Aussie tourists.
Bali would be crippled.

The biggy of course is our alliance with New Zealand, I am joking although NZ would be with us 110% the Big one is the good ole USA who have a base in Darwin don't forget. Just imagine the devastation to the IDF if the Indonesian Air Force tried to attack Darwin with US warships there.

That's news to me. When did this happen?

 

[JeffDunne]

Imagine the message Australia sending a few F18's to fly over Jakarta in a show of what we are actually capable of without any US Military hardware to help us out!

The same F18s that that US refuse to allow us to use in combat operations with them?

Good luck with that.

Just imagine the devastation to the IDF if the Indonesian Air Force tried to attack Darwin with US warships there.

There is no strategic reason for Indonesia to ever launch an attack on the Australian mainland.

It's an utterly fanciful scenario with no basis in reality.

With respect to NZ . . . I wouldn't count on their support in a conflict started by us over a handful of refugees.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

This is the height of delusion.

People like you are the enemies of an open, free thinking society that values competence, transparency and accountability.

It's ok to hide the truth, as long as it's done by my team. It's ok to blatantly lie in front of the camera, as long as it's done by my team. It's ok to support a system that tramples all over human rights, abdicates compassion and decency, as long as it's done by my team. It's ok to violate another countries sovereignty, by sending military vessels within their borders unilaterally, as long as it's done by my team.

Partisan thinking is a sickness, one that erodes away at ones humanity and reveals unthinking and despicable creatures unable to embrace ethics or morality at the individual level. Morrison is lying through his teeth, when he cannot hide the truth and is the keystone of a despicable system, that manipulates public paranoia to both distract from other political issues and allow gross human rights abuses.

My team? Which team is that exactly? Go back and have a look at my posting history and you'll see I'm hardly partisan. .

I have voted for all three major parties in my voting life.

I remain a 15+ year members of a union despite being in a position where the union would probably side against me in a workplace dispute - why? because I believe in the benefits of collective bargaining and the unions ability to represent individual staff when faced with unfair employment arrangements.

Equally I don't believe Governments can solve every problem in society and that in some cases the market, rather than Government will deliver a better outcome.

I hold views, opinions, values, morals, beliefs, biases. In some policy areas I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable in others in know bugger all. Whenever I vote I do so based on my own judgements about which party best suits my individual needs but also which party I think will best take the country as a whole forward in the given circumstances.

So stick your accusations of partisanship where the sun doesn't shine.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[GuruJane]

Are you aware there are over 1M Indonesians living illegally in other countries in the region when making such an idealistic comment?

It is amusing to see the rabbids now reduced to holding hands and praying that Indonesia "stop the boats"

As I pointed out in the same post, there are a number of actions Indonesia as the main transit country could be taking to assist Australia in stopping the people smuggler trade. Nothing idealistic about it. This is all realpolitik.For whatever reason Indonesia is choosing to not to do any of them at this stage.

But as we have been told by Indonesian Defence Chief Moedelko he was advised by our Defence Chief Hurley late in December about our governments boat turn backs.
It was only because of Moedelko talking to the Jakarta Post on January 7 that we found out about it at all. And he wasn't making complaints on behalf of Indonesia.

All that's changed now is that Australia has owned up to crossing Indonesia's sea borders - to which Indonesia has to respond. But I haven't seen Indonesia is demanding Australia stop the turn backs per se - only stopping Australian boats crossing into territorial waters.

 

[midorigreenwood]

People smugglers will likely use the tension between the two countries to test the waters...

It may be in Indonesia's best interest to at least temporarily prevent the boats from leaving shore to avoid an escalation of the situation.

Abbot has invested too much political capital to back down and Indonesia can't be seen to be kowtowing to Australia.

According to a fairfax journo on the ground, the people smuggling trade is already on its last legs as only the most desperate who can't afford to go home are getting on boats.

In other words the end is within sight.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...the-opportunity-he-needed-20140117-310gd.html

 

[Gough]

Just over one hundred days into the Abbott term and there some here speculating on an armed confrontation with our nearest neighbour. As unlikely as that is in my opinion, it doesn't say much about the diplomacy or lack of employed by his government.

 

[1061]

The same F18s that that US refuse to allow us to use in combat operations with them?

Good luck with that.

Can you back this claim up?

An RAAF F/A-18 Hornet with a USAF KC-135 Stratotanker, two F-15E Strike Eagles, an F-117 Nighthawk, two F-16CJ Falcons and a British GR.4 Tornado over Iraq.

 

[GuruJane]

People smugglers will likely use the tension between the two countries to test the waters...

It may be in Indonesia's best interest to at least temporarily prevent the boats from leaving shore to avoid an escalation of the situation.

Abbot has invested too much political capital to back down and Indonesia can't be seen to be kowtowing to Australia.

According to a fairfax journo on the ground, the people smuggling trade is already on its last legs as only the most desperate who can't afford to go home are getting on boats.

In other words the end is within sight.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...the-opportunity-he-needed-20140117-310gd.html

Light finally dawning for Bachelard, although he hasn't conceded yet that the Indonesians have known about the turn backs since around Dec 23, according to General Moedelko.

So the time line is :
Nov 19 - spy scandal story blows up.
Nov 24 - SBY tweets photo of himself reading Abbott's letter (must have been a reasonable letter )because after this story drops out of media.
Dec 13 - first turn back takes place.
Dec 23 (approx.) General Hurley informs General Moedelko about Australia's turnbacks..

After this turn backs continue but nothing is heard from Indonesia until:

Jan 7 - when Moedelko reveals it to Jakarta Post.

After that, nothing much is heard from Indonesia until:

Jan 17 (yesterday) after Australia has confessed to breaching sovereignty.

I do think realpolitik is going on here.

 

[JeffDunne]

As I pointed out in the same post, there are a number of actions Indonesia as the main transit country could be taking to assist Australia in stopping the people smuggler trade. Nothing idealistic about it. This is all realpolitik.For whatever reason Indonesia is choosing to not to do any of them at this stage.

A simple question . . . what's in it for them?

Also, as someone who has spent countless posts and hours arguing Australian domestic policy is the main determinate in the number of boats arriving . . . why is Indonesia now responsible for "stopping the boats"?

 

[JeffDunne]

Can you back this claim up?

An RAAF F/A-18 Hornet with a USAF KC-135 Stratotanker, two F-15E Strike Eagles, an F-117 Nighthawk, two F-16CJ Falcons and a British GR.4 Tornado over Iraq.

We provide air support for refuelling aircraft.

That's not combat - it's simply helping the Yanks carry their shopping.

 

[Gough]

Quick, look over there.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...kingnewsndm+(Daily+Telegraph+|+Breaking+News)

THE federal government says its annual aid budget for the year will be $5 billion, down more than $100 million from last year.
In a statement on Saturday, Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said the government's $5.042 billion aid budget for 2013/14 will be focused on the Indo-Pacific region and measured against "rigorous" benchmarks.
The aid expenditure will be $107 million less than last year's budget.
Ms Bishop said the growth of the previous year's aid budget was "unsustainable" amid an overall budget deficit forecast for this year.
"We must ensure Australia's aid program has a funding base that is responsible and affordable," Ms Bishop said.
However, child-rights organisation Plan Australia says the government's cut will hurt vulnerable children in the developing world.

Announced on a Saturday. Nice to see Julie Bishop actually say something though. Anyone seen Tones lately?

 

[GuruJane]

A simple question . . . what's in it for them?

Presumably, from their POV, not enough - yet.

Also, as someone who has spent countless posts and hours arguing Australian domestic policy is the main determinate in the number of boats arriving . . . why is Indonesia now responsible for "stopping the boats"?

It's not responsible on its own. But it does carry responsibility to take whatever effective action it can to stop its citizens ferrying unwanted and unauthorised foreign nationals across the border of its near neighbour.

That's just good international relations.

btw - seems pretty clear that Indonesia has been acquiescing in Australian government policy since around last December 23 which has seen the turn/tow back of maybe as many as 7 vessels. This is a period where Indonesia was supposed to have banned co-operation with Australia.

 

[radiojake]

This country is the height of hypocrisy -

 

[JRoo]

If Australia provoked conflict by continued incursions into Indonesian territory, most nations would support Indonesia's position and not ours (including some of our closest allies). Most of that support would be economic rather than military and many would take action designed to cripple us rather than supporting Indonesia as such.

Indonesia certainly have the capability they need to orchestrate such an outcome. If we're (read Abbott) stupid enough to continue to breach Indonesian territorial waters they'll simply us their assets to challenge us by positioning navel assets between ours and refugee boats. It won't be Indonesia that fires the first shots.

So if it eventuates that we are the aggressors in an armed conflict . . . I wouldn't rule out any country assisting the Indonesians cause either directly or indirectly.



It won't happen for one simple reason - there is nothing to be gained by either party in such a conflict.

most nations would support Indonesia's position

Tell us which nations in an armed conflict between Australia and Indonesia would directly support Indonesia?

Indonesia certainly have the capability they need to orchestrate such an outcome.

What capability do the Indonesia's have that could worry Australia in an armed conflict?

 

[JRoo]

The same F18s that that US refuse to allow us to use in combat operations with them?

Good luck with that.


There is no strategic reason for Indonesia to ever launch an attack on the Australian mainland.

It's an utterly fanciful scenario with no basis in reality.

With respect to NZ . . . I wouldn't count on their support in a conflict started by us over a handful of refugees.

You're making s**t up I see. Australian military support including F18 aircraft are/where highly prized by the US during Iraq and again in Afghanistan.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/iraq/raaf.asp

The RAAF in Iraq

Fourteen F/A-18 Hornet aircraft from 75 Squadron played a significant role in the war in Iraq. The Hornets were based at Al Udeid air base, near Doha in Qatar. At first they flew long missions of five or six hours, escorting and protecting coalition early warning AWACS aircraft and tanker aircraft used for air-to-air refuelling. Later, at the height of the war, the Hornets were used to attack Iraqi ground forces with laser-guided bombs. Targets included tanks, trucks, and artillery, as well as bunkers and storage areas for fuel and ammunition. As Iraqi resistance crumbled, the Hornets also flew close air-support missions to assist Australian and other troops on the ground as they advanced on Tikrit, north of Baghdad, a centre of support for the regime.
The RAAF also sent two P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft and three C-130 Hercules transport aircraft to the Middle East. The Orions typically flew long 12-hour missions, especially at night, over the Persian Gulf. They assisted naval operations in the Gulf by keeping track of the large number of small vessels in the area, both to curb smuggling and to guard against the danger that they could be suicide boats packed with explosives. As the war went on, the versatile Hercules flew supplies and equipment into Iraq, and later flew some of the first humanitarian aid into Baghdad.

Fourteen RAAF Hornets flew over 670 sorties during the war, including 350 combat sorties over Iraq.

 

[JRoo]

We provide air support for refuelling aircraft.

That's not combat - it's simply helping the Yanks carry their shopping.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/iraq/raaf.asp

Fourteen RAAF Hornets flew over 670 sorties during the war, including 350 combat sorties over Iraq.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Jesus Hairy Christ, why is there even talk of an armed conflict between Australia and Indonesia.

Indonesia is a growing economy with a massive population and an emerging middle-class. They are going to be be a formidable economic power within a generation. They will become one of our larger trading partners soon. There is so much to be gained for both countries through peaceful bi-lateral trade, boat people is really a trivial issue in comparison.

 

[JeffDunne]

You're making s**t up I see. Australian military support including F18 aircraft are/where highly prized by the US during Iraq and again in Afghanistan.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/iraq/raaf.asp

My apologies. I should have been clearer.

The Yanks didn't want our "highly prized" F18s anywhere near them when Iraq still had air defences.

Once the mission changed to dropping bombs on a country with no air defences, Dubya handed Johnie a bone and let him participate in the shared glory of zero-risk bombing missions.

 

[JeffDunne]

Tell us which nations in an armed conflict between Australia and Indonesia would directly support Indonesia?

A rather simplistic question. It would depend on the nature of the conflict.

Besides, this is all just pissing in the wind. If a conflict did occur, powers like China & the US would force both parties to pull their heads in long before it escalated into a full scale war.

What capability do the Indonesia's have that could worry Australia in an armed conflict?

Tens of thousands suicide bombers.

 

[JRoo]

A rather simplistic question. It would depend on the nature of the conflict.

Besides, this is all just pissing in the wind. If a conflict did occur, powers like China & the US would force both parties to pull their heads in long before it escalated into a full scale war.


Tens of thousands suicide bombers.

A rather simplistic question. It would depend on the nature of the conflict.

You have told me twice that countries would support Indonesia against Australia, I have asked you to name these countries twice.

Tens of thousands suicide bombers

Thats about it is it JeffDunne? You must have googled the Indonesian Military are realised I was right in regards to my statement that their equipment is either obsolete, unreliable, poorly maintained or simply insufficient for a armed conflict; something they know.

 

[JRoo]

My apologies. I should have been clearer.

The Yanks didn't want our "highly prized" F18s anywhere near them when Iraq still had air defences.

Once the mission changed to dropping bombs on a country with no air defences, Dubya handed Johnie a bone and let him participate in the shared glory of zero-risk bombing missions.

You made s**t up which seems to be your form.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/iraq/raaf.asp

Later, at the height of the war, the Hornets were used to attack Iraqi ground forces with laser-guided bombs. Targets included tanks, trucks, and artillery, as well as bunkers and storage areas for fuel and ammunition. As Iraqi resistance crumbled, the Hornets also flew close air-support missions to assist Australian and other troops on the ground as they advanced on Tikrit, north of Baghdad, a centre of support for the regime.

 

[JeffDunne]

You have told me twice that countries would support Indonesia against Australia, I have asked you to name these countries twice.

I really can't believe you're that ignorant to ask the same simplistic question twice.

I'll play your game though. Since we are clearly the aggressor so far in this spat, if Australia attacked Indonesia unprovoked then it would be more practical to list the countries that didn't support Indonesia than did.

 

[JRoo]

I really can't believe you're that ignorant to ask the same simplistic question twice.

I'll play your game though. Since we are clearly the aggressor so far in this spat, if Australia attacked Indonesia unprovoked then it would be more practical to list the countries that didn't support Indonesia than did.

I can't believe you'd be stupid enough to talk about something you no nothing about! Have you ever been involved with Indonesian military units or observed their equipment; based upon your lack of basic knowledge I'd say no.

I'll play your game though. Since we are clearly the aggressor so far in this spat, if Australia attacked Indonesia unprovoked then it would be more practical to list the countries that didn't support Indonesia than did

Your making more s**t up, maybe stick to the #standbymilne threads on the StKilda board rather than venturing onto a board that you are way out of your depth on.

 

[JeffDunne]

You made s**t up which seems to be your form.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/iraq/raaf.asp

Actually I didn't.

At the time I was employed by two companies supplying services to the RAAF (including services in the Gulf). I also worked with logistics at Russell for DoD.

You seem to have an over-inflated sense of our defence capabilities. Ex-military that sees it as a slight on the personnel? If so, you shouldn't. It's not their fault DoD's tendering process is rotten to the core.