Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[JRoo]

Actually I didn't.

At the time I was employed by two companies supplying services to the RAAF (including services in the Gulf). I also worked with logistics at Russell for DoD.

You seem to have an over-inflated sense of our defence capabilities. Ex-military that sees it as a slight on the personnel? If so, you shouldn't. It's not their fault DoD's tendering process is rotten to the core.

You made s**t up, you stated the US refused to allow our F18's into combat with them, that was rubbish and as I pointed out the RAAF F18's flew over 670 sorties during the war, including 350 combat sorties over Iraq.

You seem to have an over-inflated sense of our defence capabilities.

No I have an understanding of the limited use of the Indonesian military capabilities; something you don't.

Ex-military that sees it as a slight on the personnel?

No i'm not ex-ADF but I have dealt with/seen the military of various countries; i.e. Indo in action up close.

 

[JeffDunne]

I can't believe you'd be stupid enough to talk about something you no nothing about! Have you ever been involved with Indonesian military units or observed their equipment;

What exactly has that got to do with which countries would support Indonesia in a conflict?

 

[JeffDunne]

You made s**t up, you stated the US refused to allow our F18's into combat with them, that was rubbish and as I pointed out the RAAF F18's flew over 670 sorties during the war, including 350 combat sorties over Iraq.

Did you even read the link you posted?

We provided air support to the Yanks for refueling missions at the start of the war.

Remind me, how long did the Iraqi air defences last again?

Flying bombing missions where there is zero chance of being shot out of the sky is a training exercise not what I would call "combat". I did apologise for not clarifying that point.

 

[JRoo]

What exactly has that got to do with which countries would support Indonesia in a conflict?

Your post #1707 which I responded to in post #1708.

 

[midorigreenwood]

A simple question . . . what's in it for them?

An obvious benefit is anti-terrorism. Indonesia with Australia's cooperation have probably prevented tens of terrorist attacks in the country. The AFP has been lauded with helping to transform their special police into one of the premier anti-terror squads in the world.

Also Australia may be a minor partner economically but as a member of the Five eyes group they would be a valuable source of intelligence.

The spying scandal is likely just a minor bump in the road.

 

[JRoo]

Did you even read the link you posted?

We provided air support to the Yanks for refueling missions at the start of the war.

Remind me, how long did the Iraqi air defences last again?

Flying bombing missions where there is zero chance of being shot out of the sky is a training exercise not what I would call "combat". I did apologise for not clarifying that point.

I read the link JeffDunne. The US military did not refuse to allow our F18's into combat with them as you stated.

I did apologise for not clarifying that point.

You mean you backtracked after getting caught making s**t up?

Flying bombing missions where there is zero chance of being shot out of the sky

Zero chance of being shot out of the sky, maybe you should tell the USAF that!

The most dangerous asset to an aircraft on the battlefield in the modern era is a single use shoulder launched SAM which where readily available in Iraq/Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

 

[DivideandMultiply]

So stick your accusations of partisanship where the sun doesn't shine.

Much like Pottsie, I have only witnessed you post appologism or support for the coalition on this website. You can claim a reasoned position, yet still instead post from a position of partisan bias.

However my point was a general one, I simply can't stomach how here, or anywhere else, people replace reason and an autonomous system of moral and ethical judgement, with unthinking fervent political alignment.

 

[GuruJane]

Much like Pottsie, I have only witnessed you post appologism or support for the coalition on this website. You can claim a reasoned position, yet still instead post from a position of partisan bias.

However my point was a general one, I simply can't stomach how here, or anywhere else, people replace reason and an autonomous system of moral and ethical judgement, with unthinking fervent political alignment.

What a load of sanctimonious, self righteous, moral hooey.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

I really can't believe you're that ignorant to ask the same simplistic question twice.

I'll play your game though. Since we are clearly the aggressor so far in this spat, if Australia attacked Indonesia unprovoked then it would be more practical to list the countries that didn't support Indonesia than did.

Actually I'd say in the event of armed conflict between Indonesia and Australia I doubt either side would get any real support from others.

Most likely Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, The Philippines, East Timor & PNG would probably all like to see Indonesia severely weakened but most wouldn't give a shit what happens to Australia and the ones that might aren't going to get involved.

China and the US are both likely to stay out of such a conflict unless the other enters so they'll be at a stand off.

At best we could hope for help off New Zealand but that's pretty much it.

Any conflict between Indonesia and Australia will most likely come down to just the capabilities of the respective countries. However Indonesia has another concern as redistributing military resources to combat Australia could leave some of their provinces primed for uprisings.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

What a load of sanctimonious, self righteous, moral hooey.

Wouldn't expect anything else from a proud sociopath like you Jane.

 

[Gough]

Actually I'd say in the event of armed conflict between Indonesia and Australia I doubt either side would get any real support from others.

Most likely Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, The Philippines, East Timor & PNG would probably all like to see Indonesia severely weakened but most wouldn't give a shit what happens to Australia and the ones that might aren't going to get involved.

China and the US are both likely to stay out of such a conflict unless the other enters so they'll be at a stand off.

At best we could hope for help off New Zealand but that's pretty much it.

Any conflict between Indonesia and Australia will most likely come down to just the capabilities of the respective countries. However Indonesia has another concern as redistributing military resources to combat Australia could leave some of their provinces primed for uprisings.

What happens if it's the NZ Army's day off?

 

[Ice-Wolf]

What happens if it's the NZ Army's day off?

If we were the aggressor I doubt they would help us anyway, and at best I see their help being non-military in nature.

Another issue is that neither Australia or Indonesia have anything to gain from a conflict between them, Australia doesn't really want any Indonesian territory and vice versa. The territory Indonesia would like to capture are in the hands of 3rd parties.

At best Australia's goal would be the break-up of Indonesia into smaller Island nations.

 

[midorigreenwood]

They're bros. Love will conquer all in the end

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ach-of-territorial-waters-20140118-311eb.html

Meanwhile, Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has revealed in a new book he felt betrayed by Tony Abbott over November's spying affair, describing Mr Abbott as his best friend.

In the book, titled Selalu Ada Pilihan (There is Always a Choice), President Yudhoyono writes of a deep sense of regret over the spying controversy, which emerged in November, when relations between Indonesia and Australia were on a high.

"When my best friend Tony Abbott made several statements before the Australian parliament suggesting the case was normal and refused to apologise, I could no longer stay silent," Dr Yudhoyono wrote in the book.

 

[JeffDunne]

I read the link JeffDunne. The US military did not refuse to allow our F18's into combat with them as you stated.

So then remind me . . . why were they not part of the initial invasion and the dismantling of Iraqi air defences? We were in the region and one of the few "willing".

Zero chance of being shot out of the sky, maybe you should tell the USAF that!

The most dangerous asset to an aircraft on the battlefield in the modern era is a single use shoulder launched SAM which where readily available in Iraq/Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

Ummm . . . again I ask did you read the link you posted?

Pilots in Iraq faced more danger from mechanical failure than they did being shot down.

Besides I'm not really sure what relevance this all has to the discussion at hand. You clearly think good old Oz is more than capable of ultimately defeating Indonesia in armed conflict, I don't (for a variety of reasons including our specific capabilities).

 

[JeffDunne]

Actually I'd say in the event of armed conflict between Indonesia and Australia I doubt either side would get any real support from others.

If we were the aggressor I would guess every player who stood to gain by a change in the balance of power in the region would support Indonesia either directly or indirectly.

It's also one of the many reasons why the conflict would never happen in the near term (let alone neither party having anything to gain). Those with the most influence in the region wouldn't let it happen.

 

[JRoo]

So then remind me . . . why were they not part of the initial invasion and the dismantling of Iraqi air defences? We were in the region and one of the few "willing".


Ummm . . . again I ask did you read the link you posted?

Pilots in Iraq faced more danger from mechanical failure than they did being shot down.

Besides I'm not really sure what relevance this all has to the discussion at hand. You clearly think good old Oz is more than capable of ultimately defeating Indonesia in armed conflict, I don't (for a variety of reasons including our specific capabilities).

So then remind me . . . why were they not part of the initial invasion and the dismantling of Iraqi air defences? We were in the region and one of the few "willing".

So are you going to finally admit you are wrong in saying the US didn't want to use Australian F18 Hornets in Iraq/Afganistan? As I pointed out the RAAF F18's flew over 670 sorties during the war, including 350 combat sorties over Iraq, but for some reason you stated the US didn't want to the Australian F18 Hornets.

Ummm . . . again I ask did you read the link you posted?

Pilots in Iraq faced more danger from mechanical failure than they did being shot down.

You claimed there was no threat of being shot down over Iraq; a training exercise you called it and as per the link your wrong on something else, whats that about 4 or 5 you're wrong on?

Besides I'm not really sure what relevance this all has to the discussion at hand.

You ignoring your own post #1707 now?

You clearly think good old Oz is more than capable of ultimately defeating Indonesia in armed conflict,

I do and thats why I have asked you on multiple occasions to tell me what military assets you think could standup in a combat situation with ADF assets; but despite asking you multiple times your only response is thousands of suicide bombers!

I don't (for a variety of reasons including our specific capabilities)

Tell me how you have compared the different military capabilities/assets of the ADF and their Indonesian counterparts will you?

 

[GuruJane]

Wouldn't expect anything else from a proud sociopath like you Jane.

 

[JeffDunne]

I'll keep this short because it's boring.

Did the US military want us? No
Did US/Oz politicians? Yes
Were we part of the air assault on Iraq? No
Did we perform bombing missions once the Iraqi defences were disabled? Yes
Did the US military want the F18s flying missions in Afghanistan? No

And . . . would Australia be successful in attempting an invasion of Indonesia? We would struggle to destroy their air defences let alone mount a ground invasion of Java. So no.

As for a breakdown of military assets . . . I'll let you play battleships with your mates. Geopolitical realities are far more relevant to who and how any such war would play out than the scant military hardware possessed by both countries.

 

[JRoo]

I'll keep this short because it's boring.

Did the US military want us? No
Did US/Oz politicians? Yes
Were we part of the air assault on Iraq? No
Did we perform bombing missions once the Iraqi defences were disabled? Yes
Did the US military want the F18s flying missions in Afghanistan? No

And . . . would Australia be successful in attempting an invasion of Indonesia? We would struggle to destroy their air defences let alone mount a ground invasion of Java. So no.

As for a breakdown of military assets . . . I'll let you play battleships with your mates. Geopolitical realities are far more relevant to who and how any such war would play out than the scant military hardware possessed by both countries.

Did the US military want us? No

Link to the US Military not wanting Australian F18's or Australian Military help in IRAQ/Afganistan?

Did US/Oz politicians? Yes

You finally got something right, not bad what 10 posts and you actually post something thats correct!

Were we part of the air assault on Iraq? No

Australian F18's where part of the air assault as they flew over 670 sorties.

Did we perform bombing missions once the Iraqi defences were disabled? Yes

Disabled??? As per my previous links and comments flying over Iraq wasn't akin to an exercise as you previously stated, aircraft where continuing to be shot down.

Did the US military want the F18s flying missions in Afghanistan? No

The US cut back their own fixed wing aircraft in Afganistan due to the nature of the combat; not because they didn't specifically want our F18 Hornets which a number where sent to Afganistan as well as Iraq.

We would struggle to destroy their air defences let alone mount a ground invasion of Java.

What air defences?

And . . . would Australia be successful in attempting an invasion of Indonesia?

Who has talked about invading Indonesia?? You stated at #1711 that Indonesia has the capabilites to defend incursions into it's waters; I asked you at #1713 what with?

As for a breakdown of military assets . . . I'll let you play battleships with your mates.

So you really have NFI of the military capabilities of the Indonesian Defence force then? Let me guess as I asked you previously you have never been on an Indonesian naval vessel or been involved with the IDF during their operations?

Geopolitical realities are far more relevant to who and how any such war would play out than the scant military hardware possessed by both countries

Thats probably why I asked you 3-4 times who would side with Indonesia in a conflict with Australia but you can't tell me!

You may also want to let me know what you think about the almost naval conflict that occurred between RAN vessels and IDF naval vessels north west of East Timor in 1999.

 

[JeffDunne]

Pose to me a scenario under which a conflict takes place and I'll tell you who would support Indonesia.

You ask vague questions and then demand specific answers.

Oh and on Afghanistan, your reply is complete bumpkin.

 

[JRoo]

Pose to me a scenario under which a conflict takes place and I'll tell you who would support Indonesia.

You ask vague questions and then demand specific answers.

Oh and on Afghanistan, your reply is complete bumpkin.

Pose to me a scenario under which a conflict takes place and I'll tell you who would support Indonesia.

See all your post's from #1707 onwards.

You ask vague questions and then demand specific answers.

I give you very specific questions but due to your own ignorance you can't won't answer.

Oh and on Afghanistan, your reply is complete bumpkin

Solid response up there with the rest of your post's!

You have told us the Indonesians have the capabilities to fight Australian incursions into their waters, I asked you what with, what assets, but you don't know the answer!

You stated countries would side with Indonesia against Australia in a conflict, I asked you what countries would but you don't know what countries would.

Honestly JeffDunne is it any wonder your football club is such a mess when the supporter base seems to struggle like you do?

 

[AM]

Think Jeff's posting modus operandi is more about quantity than quality JRoo.

 

[JRoo]

Think Jeff's posting modus operandi is more about quantity than quality JRoo.

Yep I was hoping to get involved in a discussion of the IDF V ADF military capabilities re their various equipment, training and general strategy. I would loved to have a discussion on the 11 IAF Su27&29 supplied without missiles due to cost restraints, or the IAF lack of AWEC support or in air-refuelling capabilites. Hell I would have enjoyed a discussion on the aging, 40+ year old Dutch destroyers that are the main component of the Indonesian Navy. Alas I tried to have an intelligent discussion with JeffDunne which it seems an intelligent discussion is wasted!

 

[Maggie5]

Tell us which nations in an armed conflict between Australia and Indonesia would directly support Indonesia?



What capability do the Indonesia's have that could worry Australia in an armed conflict?

247 million people and counting, some Arab nations?

 

[JeffDunne]

You have told us the Indonesians have the capabilities to fight Australian incursions into their waters, I asked you what with, what assets, but you don't know the answer!

Can I rattle off the top of my head a list of Indonesia's naval & military assets?

No, I can't. Unlike yourself, I don't consider the ability to google and linking to a wiki page a skill or a contribution to debate. I also don't think it's a pissing contest worth participating in.

Honestly JeffDunne is it any wonder your football club is such a mess when the supporter base seems to struggle like you do?

Well that tells me all I need to know.

Are you for real?