Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[JeffDunne]

Think Jeff's posting modus operandi is more about quantity than quality JRoo.

Ironic.

 

[Pykie]

I don't really like discussing the relevant Aus vs Indo war, as it's absurd.

But.

Putting it very briefly, the RAN and the RAAF completely outclass their Indonesian counterparts in pretty much every department. They have better technology, better ships, planes, submarines, air systems and air defence and much more of them. Anyone that thinks a foot army wins a modern war is kidding themselves.

Most of indonesia's front line navy, airforce and tanks are upwards of 40 years old.

There's no possible way Indonesia could successfully invade Australia by sea without severe casualties, and trying to supply that invasion would be near on impossible with their current capabilities.

Australia's economy is in such a state, that if it went to war, what appears to be fairly insignificant capabilities, would go into overdrive. There'd be an influx of US and UK surplus planes, ships and tanks. The reserve would mobilize and conscription would be enforced.

The ADF inc. reserves at 100,000 strong mobilized would pretty quickly become 2-3,000,0000 in the case of an invasion.


The US is another matter in terms of allies, but Indonesia would be annihilated by the UK before a soldier set foot on this continent.

 

[JRoo]

Can I rattle off the top of my head a list of Indonesia's naval & military assets?

No, I can't. Unlike yourself, I don't consider the ability to google and linking to a wiki page a skill or a contribution to debate. I also don't think it's a pissing contest worth participating in.


Well that tells me all I need to know.

Are you for real?

Can I rattle off the top of my head a list of Indonesia's naval & military assets?

No, I can't.

Then what do you base your repeated statements that the Indonesian military would be able to defend incursions into their waters by the ADF or that Australian would struggle to overcome the Indonesian air defences? What was it blind chance you'd get away with making even more s**t up?

Unlike yourself, I don't consider the ability to google and linking to a wiki page a skill or a contribution to debate. I also don't think it's a pissing contest worth participating in.

Once again for you JeffDunne, i don't have to rely upon google for my information as i have seen first hand the capabilities of the Indonesian as well as various other nations defence forces in action.

Well that tells me all I need to know.

Are you for real?

Yes it does JeffDunne, i expected an intelligent discussion but all i got was you!

As I said previously is it any wonder you football club is such a mess on and offield whne they have supporters like you!

 

[JeffDunne]

The discussion was on the basis of Australia provoking a war with Indonesia and whether the Indonesians could defend against such an attack.

Actually it started on me making the comment that Indonesia could defend itself against incursions into it's waters. On that I have no doubt because all they'd need is just one boat capable of putting itself between our navy and refugees.

 

[JeffDunne]

Then what do you base your repeated statements that the Indonesian military would be able to defend incursions into their waters by the ADF

Geopolitical realities.

If we fired on Indonesia in their waters the international community - including our closest allies - would insist we back down immediately. On that there is little doubt.

 

[1061]

I don't really like discussing the relevant Aus vs Indo war, as it's absurd.

But.

Putting it very briefly, the RAN and the RAAF completely outclass their Indonesian counterparts in pretty much every department. They have better technology, better ships, planes, submarines, air systems and air defence and much more of them. Anyone that thinks a foot army wins a modern war is kidding themselves.

Most of indonesia's front line navy, airforce and tanks are upwards of 40 years old.

There's no possible way Indonesia could successfully invade Australia by sea without severe casualties, and trying to supply that invasion would be near on impossible with their current capabilities.

Australia's economy is in such a state, that if it went to war, what appears to be fairly insignificant capabilities, would go into overdrive. There'd be an influx of US and UK surplus planes, ships and tanks. The reserve would mobilize and conscription would be enforced.

The ADF inc. reserves at 100,000 strong mobilized would pretty quickly become 2-3,000,0000 in the case of an invasion.

We didn't end up the 4th military power post WW2 just because Germany and Japan fell.
We don't need to be a big military power but it wouldn't take much for us to get it together.

The US is another matter in terms of allies, but Indonesia would be annihilated by the UK before a soldier set foot on this continent.

I seriously doubt the UK could annihilate a rice pudding let alone a large Asian Country. I wont be waiting for the Poms to rescue us.

 

[JRoo]

The discussion was on the basis of Australia provoking a war with Indonesia and whether the Indonesians could defend against such an attack.

Actually it started on me making the comment that Indonesia could defend itself against incursions into it's waters. On that I have no doubt because all they'd need is just one boat capable of putting itself between our navy and refugees.

The discussion was in response to you questioning Noddy comments that and I quote;

noddy said: ↑

now i realize that the Indonesian navy would be out manned & out gunned by the Australian Navy​

Your response to this comment at #1707 was;

JeffDunne said: ↑

Would they?​

I responded with this at #1708;
JRoo said: ↑

Yes they would. The indonesian Navy and military in general is terribly equipped/maintained and is easily outgunned by the ADF. The IDF understand this as does the ADF.​

 

[JeffDunne]

Once again for you JeffDunne, i don't have to rely upon google for my information as i have seen first hand the capabilities of the Indonesian as well as various other nations defence forces in action.

A grunt with a nationalist chip on their shoulder . . . I think I guessed that.

 

[JRoo]

Geopolitical realities.

If we fired on Indonesia in their waters the international community - including our closest allies - would insist we back down immediately. On that there is little doubt.

We won't fire on any Indonesian military vessels or military assets. Australia's rules of engagement are very very constrictive and resulted in ADF units being fired upon by IDF units in 99 but not responding.

 

[Pykie]

We didn't end up the 4th military power post WW2 just because Germany and Japan fell.
We don't need to be a big military power but it wouldn't take much for us to get it together.




I seriously doubt the UK could annihilate a rice pudding let alone a large Asian Country. I wont be waiting for the Poms to rescue us.

Allies is a moot point anyway.

99% of Indonesia's army are woefully under trained, they have been trained by the Australian army for years, and under trained for that very reason. They are trained for domestic unrest, basically glorified police officers.

Indonesia's defence budget is $4.7BUSD vs Australia's $22B USD.

That should give you an idea of the gap in technology of both countries.

 

[JRoo]

A grunt with a nationalist chip on their shoulder . . . I think I guessed that.

I'm not military or ex-military for the 2nd time! Jes it's hard to get information into your head JeffDunne.

Oh and it's nationalist to hope to have an intelligent discussion on the military capabilities of 2 countries??

 

[Pykie]

The discussion was on the basis of Australia provoking a war with Indonesia and whether the Indonesians could defend against such an attack.

Actually it started on me making the comment that Indonesia could defend itself against incursions into it's waters. On that I have no doubt because all they'd need is just one boat capable of putting itself between our navy and refugees.

I didn't realise this, apologies, I'm presuming an Indonesian invasion.

There's absolutely no chance Australia would shoot first if ever there was a conflict.......

 

[JeffDunne]

JRoo, so a military wanna-be with a nationalistic chip?

That's worse (regardless of the football team you support).

 

[JeffDunne]

There's absolutely no chance Australia would shoot first if ever there was a conflict.......

Which was exactly the original point I was trying to get at before the pissing contest and blowback for me doubting our military capabilities broke out.

One boat is all Indonesia would need in defending incursions into their waters.

 

[JRoo]

Allies is a moot point anyway.

99% of Indonesia's army are woefully under trained, they have been trained by the Australian army for years, and under trained for that very reason. They are trained for domestic unrest, basically glorified police officers.

Indonesia's defence budget is $4.7BUSD vs Australia's $22B USD.

That should give you an idea of the gap in technology of both countries.

Yep the latest air-defence aircraft they ordered, 9 Su30's where ordered without air-defence missiles to save money. The only armament they have is their internal point defence gun which would go great in combat with almost 100 F-18 Hornets & Super Hornets firing long range air to air missiles from 100+km's away!

The latest 2nd hand Leopard 2 MBT they bought from Germany where bought without the latest range finder to save money.

Their main naval vessels are 40+ year old Dutch vessels that they struggle to maintain due to their age and obsolescence of the vessels.

The IDF is a hodge podge of different non-compatible, aging, obsolete, 2nd hand and in many cases inferior equipment that is only usable to put down internal insurrections, not to undertake combat in a hot environment against first world military equipment!

 

[Pykie]

We won't fire on any Indonesian military vessels or military assets. Australia's rules of engagement are very very constrictive and resulted in ADF units being fired upon by IDF units in 99 but not responding.

Errr, the 2RAR did get in a firefight with the IDF in 1999 on the western borders, they certainly DID fire back, it didn't end too well for the Indonesians..............

Australia's rules of engagement aren't any different to the US or UK's, if they are fired upon, the soldiers sure as hell will defend themselves..............

 

[JRoo]

Errr, the 2RAR did get in a firefight with the IDF in 1999 on the western borders, it didn't end too well for the Indonesians..............

Yep I know about the 2RAR firefight, and yes it didn't go well for them.

i know of a few other incidents where the Australian pulled back despite being fired upon.

I also know of an incident in which several Indonesia Navy frigates sailed from their main base in Surabaya with an intention to enforce Indonesia's rights over East Timor. The Indonesian Ambassador in Australian was called in by the government and told that the ADF new the current course, location, speed, names of the captain and senior officers of each vessels, the weapons they had onboard and that if they crossed a centre no-go line that the ADF was authorised to undertake self-defence actions which where supported by several fully armed F18's The Indonesian Ambassador left and within an hour the vessels turned tail and returned to Surabaya.

 

[JRoo]

Which was exactly the original point I was trying to get at before the pissing contest and blowback for me doubting our military capabilities broke out.

One boat is all Indonesia would need in defending incursions into their waters.

No it wasn't! You question Noddy's comments "that the Indonesian navy would be out manned & out gunned by the Australian Navy".

You have told me the Indonesians have the capability to defeat the ADF but you don't know what with!

 

[JRoo]

JRoo, so a military wanna-be with a nationalistic chip?

That's worse (regardless of the football team you support).

Whats a "Military wanna-be with a nationalist chip"?

 

[1061]

Whats a "Military wanna-be with a nationalist chip"?

Robocop!

 

[ross warren]

I know Australia's military is not top draw, but for jeff dunne to make out Indonesia needs 1 boat to stop incursions into their waters, now we know his full of shit , j roo was right to keep questioning him on his knowledge, jeff dunne reminds me of a guy who turns up on Anzac day , joins the march with his fake medals, but never been near an army base in his life

 

[noddy]

I know Australia's military is not top draw, but for jeff dunne to make out Indonesia needs 1 boat to stop incursions into their waters, now we know his full of shit , j roo was right to keep questioning him on his knowledge, jeff dunne reminds me of a guy who turns up on Anzac day , joins the march with his fake medals, but never been near an army base in his life

That is pretty low mate even for you.

 

[JeffDunne]

You have told me the Indonesians have the capability to defeat the ADF ...

I did?

Whats a "Military wanna-be with a nationalist chip"?

Someone that moronic they'd point to the football team someone supports in a discussion of this nature because their political and nationalistic sensitivities have been pricked.

 

[ross warren]

hey , I only read the back and forth between him and j roo , I couldn't give a continental on what they were discussing, but that's the vibe he gives off , he seems to want to give off he knows it all military wise, but when queried, wont respond directly or trys to avoid the question ps their has been much more offensive comments than mine in the past, only recently I go called a ret@rd , I didn't see you jumping on that poster

 

[JRoo]

I did?



Someone that moronic they'd point to the football team someone supports in a discussion of this nature because their political and nationalistic sensitivities have been pricked.

I did?

#1711 Does Indonesia have the capability to defend incursions into it's waters? Bloody oath it does.

#1714 Indonesia certainly have the capability they need to orchestrate such an outcome.

#1753 you clearly think good old Oz is more than capable of ultimately defeating Indonesia in armed conflict, I don't (for a variety of reasons including our specific capabilities).

#1757 We would struggle to destroy their air defences

#1768 Indonesia could defend itself against incursions into it's waters. On that I have no doubt

their political and nationalistic sensitivities

What are my so called political and nationalist sensitivities?

Have you found out what air-defence assets the Indonesians have and why the ADF would "struggle to destroy their air defences"?

Also have you found out what aircraft the IDF would be able to put up against the Australian aircraft; hint i mentioned them earlier so you can cut and paste and try and pass that off as your own!