Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Malifice]

As usual you folks are conflating two different issues.

Visa overstayers (ie: illegal immigrants, not those who just made a mistake with their scheduling) aren't looking to become legal citizens. They have no rights to health care, social housing or other government assistance. They're part of the shadow economy and largely don't affect tax payers besides being exploited for low wages.

The majority of refugees require years of government assistance to integrate into society and that means that level headed thinking must be used with regards to the issue.

We're talking about economic immigrants here - not refugees. We assist refugees (who have a genuine right to be here) - we deport economic migrants (who dont have a right to be here). Thats the line parrotted by the 'crocodile tear' right wingers here.

Whats the difference between an economic migrant coming by boat or coming by air (such as European visa over stayers)? Why do we only smash the former with mandatory detention and so forth, and we dont smash the latter?

Is it because of brown skin or something?

 

[midorigreenwood]

We're talking about economic immigrants here - not refugees. We assist refugees (who have a genuine right to be here) - we deport economic migrants (who dont have a right to be here). Thats the line parrotted by the 'crocodile tear' right wingers here.

Whats the difference between an economic migrant coming by boat or coming by air (such as European visa over stayers)? Why do we only smash the former with mandatory detention and so forth, and we dont smash the latter?

Asylum seekers come by boat or air because there is/was a pathway to become legal...ie: Australian citizens.

Visa overstayers are illegal immigrants with no pathway and get deported when they're found so I'm not sure why you're conflating two different issues.

Is it because of brown skin or something?

That is offensive. Why are folks so quick to play the race card? I'm chinese and was born in a Muslim majority country (Malaysia) so I don't see why I'm being accused of being scared of muslims.

 

[Gough]

It's because it's a racist policy. Not everyone who supports it is a racist, but overwhelmingly those who do are, and they are the one who this is aimed at.

 

[midorigreenwood]

It's because it's a racist policy. Not everyone who supports it is a racist, but overwhelmingly those who do are, and they are the one who this is aimed at.

No its because you've ran out of argument and its easier to call people you disagree with racist.

The reason that strong border protection has broad public and bipartisan support is because:

Australia support helping refugees but with a measure of control.

That refugee advocates keep blinding themselves that everyone are just rednecks means that they haven't learnt anything and will continue to be part of the fringe rather than the solution.

 

[Gough]

We're part of a globalised world now. Isn't that the rationale behind free trade agreements, the TPP, and god knows whatever else this government is signing away right now? We all act together in the interests of a greater global good. Why is this spirit not being translated into a global effort in solving the refugee crisis? We're quick to act together if we can spin a buck it would seem, but stand apart from the rest of the world when it comes to refugees, our own little isolationist island. Trade barriers bad, barbed wire, good.

 

[Malifice]

Asylum seekers come by boat or air because there is/was a pathway to become legal...ie: Australian citizens.

Visa overstayers are illegal immigrants with no pathway and get deported when they're found so I'm not sure why you're conflating two different issues.

Im not conflating two different issues. Im restricting the topic to economic immigrants. Unlawful non-citizens (which genuine refugees are not).

If the whole point of the mandatory detention regime is to 'stop economic immigrants'why dont we apply it to visa overstayers and other economic immigrants that fly in?

That is offensive. Why are folks so quick to play the race card? I'm chinese and was born in a Muslim majority country (Malaysia) so I don't see why I'm being accused of being scared of muslims.

Because this issue is largely about ethnicity. It's the elephant in the room.

I can assure you that if the current crop of boat arrivals were 'white' anglo, christian english speakers (say Brits fleeing a third war in Europe) the narrative around this would be very different indeed.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Im not conflating two different issues. Im restricting the topic to economic immigrants. Unlawful non-citizens (which genuine refugees are not).

If the whole point of the mandatory detention regime is to 'stop economic immigrants'why dont we apply it to visa overstayers and other economic immigrants that fly in?

Because its a strawman?

We do try to enforce against illegal immigrants. Its just not easy because they aren't announcing themselves like asylum seekers. They're not trying to become legal citizens unlike asylum seekers so there is subterfuge involved as they hide in the shadows.

Also because visa overstayers came in with permission, there has to be balance because Australia invites millions of people as tourists or students. If we treat everyone as criminal from the get go there would be an economic hit in many industries.

Because this issue is largely about ethnicity. It's the elephant in the room.

I can assure you that if the current crop of boat arrivals were 'white' anglo, christian english speakers (say Brits fleeing a third war in Europe) the narrative around this would be very different indeed.

multiple surveys done by Monash university say otherwise. I've already posted it many times in this thread so can't be stuffed ....google.

 

[Xsess]

We're part of a globalised world now. Isn't that the rationale behind free trade agreements, the TPP, and god knows whatever else this government is signing away right now? We all act together in the interests of a greater global good. Why is this spirit not being translated into a global effort in solving the refugee crisis? We're quick to act together if we can spin a buck it would seem, but stand apart from the rest of the world when it comes to refugees, our own little isolationist island. Trade barriers bad, barbed wire, good.

A border-less world and government is a damn stupid idea. Which is why your opposition to Australia's sovereign right to decide who comes here has no cred.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Why is this spirit not being translated into a global effort in solving the refugee crisis?

Its because the refugee convention is obsolete.

Billions of dollars are wasted concentrated on an out of date concept of seeking asylum while those stuck in refugee camps are forgotten.

As I posted before

As I've already posted in the amnesty international opinion piece several pages ago, they argue that of the 4 million displaced syrian citizens, only 5 percent are those that have the means to travel to Europe/western countries to seek asylum while 95 percent are stuck in neighbouring countries elking out a harsh existence.

The question you should be asking yourselves is.....why are western countries giving so much attention to such a small minority of people and forgetting about the majority who don't have the means to garner our sympathy?

The UN recently announced that the number of displaced people in the world has reached 60 million....a rise of nearly 10 million in a short period of time.

If billions of dollars weren't wasted on border protection because people have an incentive to travel thousands of kilometres, they could be better used on helping refugee hosting countries.

 

[Xsess]

We're talking about economic immigrants here - not refugees. We assist refugees (who have a genuine right to be here) - we deport economic migrants (who dont have a right to be here). Thats the line parrotted by the 'crocodile tear' right wingers here.

Whats the difference between an economic migrant coming by boat or coming by air (such as European visa over stayers)? Why do we only smash the former with mandatory detention and so forth, and we dont smash the latter?

Is it because of brown skin or something?

At least you aren't insulting our intelligence by suggesting these people are anything but economic migrants. From that base my opposition to these people is simple.

1) They are flaudulently seeking asylum at the direct cost of the most vulnerable people on earth. The bastards.
2) they are a national security threat - travelling across the globe in airplanes, paying criminals to transport them to Australia and arriving with no ID
3) any visa overstayer caught gets immediately deported - end of story, with these frauds we cant do that because they are seeking asylum therefore putting the onus on us to unravel their dubious histories - thats why they go into detention while their "claims" are processed and that costs a fortune
4) with an army of Australian enablers in the legal profession et all working on their behalf they use our laws against us and become extremely difficult to remove once here. Many end up having their dubious claims upheld and become "Australian" citizens. From there its been shown they overwelmingly become lifetime welfare recipients over-represented in crime statistics, often returning to fight for terrorism groups overseas or even on our home soil.

 

[Malifice]

At least you aren't insulting our intelligence by suggesting these people are anything but economic migrants. From that base my opposition to these people is simple.

1) They are flaudulently seeking asylum at the direct cost of the most vulnerable people on earth. The bastards.
2) they are a national security threat - travelling across the globe in airplanes, paying criminals to transport them to Australia and arriving with no ID
3) any visa overstayer caught gets immediately deported - end of story, with these frauds we cant do that because they are seeking asylum therefore putting the onus on us to unravel their dubious histories - thats why they go into detention while their "claims" are processed and that costs a fortune
4) with an army of Australian enablers in the legal profession et all working on their behalf they use our laws against us and become extremely difficult to remove once here. Many end up having their dubious claims upheld and become "Australian" citizens. From there its been shown they overwelmingly become lifetime welfare recipients over-represented in crime statistics, often returning to fight for terrorism groups overseas or even on our home soil.

Literally none of this is true. Not a single word of it. And I know you know it.

You just trolling now?

 

[medusala]

Your bias is to ensure brown people don't end up here.

Gough would have been proud! He had no love for the yellow hordes.

Literally none of this is true. Not a single word of it.

BS Mal, they do take the places of genuine refugees under the Australian system, they are overrepresented in crime etc

Bit rich of you to accuse others of making it up re illegal immigrants BTW

 

[Malifice]

BS Mal, they do take the places of genuine refugees under the Australian system,

Economic migrants take no-ones place under the Australian system.

they are overrepresented in crime etc

Who is 'they'? Refugees in general? Or just the brown skinned ones?

 

[crackerjack4X4]

Economic migrants take no-ones place under the Australian system.



Who is 'they'? Refugees in general? Or just the brown skinned ones?

No one is talking about "brown skinned ones" except you and Gough.
I don't see anyone bashing "brown skinned" of Indian descent or heritage, do you?
We are talking illegal migrates who are taking the piss out of Australia.

 

[Mayestro]

Gough would have been proud! He had no love for the yellow hordes.

BS Mal, they do take the places of genuine refugees under the Australian system, they are overrepresented in crime etc

Bit rich of you to accuse others of making it up re illegal immigrants BTW

Well that's completely incorrect.

Asylum seekers living in the community on bridging visas are about 45 times less likely to be charged with a crime than members of the general public.

Figures released to Fairfax Media by the department of immigration and citizenship show that since November 2011, 12,100 asylum seekers have been released into the community on bridging visas.

A department spokeswoman said that ''a handful'' - or five or less - had been charged with a crime. This equates to just 41.32 people per 100,000 people.

The Australian Bureau of Statistics has not compiled national crime figures for the 2011-12 financial year because New South Wales declined to provide the rates of young offenders to the
But in 2010-11, the last time it compiled national crime data, the ABS reported that police launched proceedings against 371,040 offenders, or 1896 people per 100,000 people.

This is more than 45 times the number of proceedings lodged against asylum seekers on bridging visas in the community.

 

[medusala]

Well that's completely incorrect.

NO. Those stats only relate to "asylum seekers have been released into the community on bridging visas" not those permanently settled. As if they commit crimes before residency, that would be absurd, given they can be thrown out. See crime stats by country of birth (and even that isn't representative given the children of refugees are then counted as Australian, rather than by ethnicity).

Pretty shameful stuff from Fairfax but its the nonsense one expects from them.

 

[medusala]

Economic migrants take no-ones place under the Australian system.

FFS Mal, why do you always have to blatantly misrepresent what other say?

Boat people take the place of genuine refugees in camps.

Refugees in general? Or just the brown skinned ones?

Lol at your idiotic racist nonsense.

On what possible basis would I want to advocate higher crime, worse schools, worse hospitals, higher unemployment, worse public transport etc?

That isn't racism, that is common sense. You don't have a rational argument, hence the pathetic 1st year Arts strategy of cry racism.

 

[Gough]

"Boat people", are overwhelmingly refugees too.

 

[medusala]

"Boat people", are overwhelmingly refugees too.

BS, only a minority are accepted at first, they then rort the legal system (circa 80% of those boat people rejected then win on appeal). How do you know they are refugees when the vast majority rip up their identity papers? You cant. It is BS. Our approval rates are higher than other countries (way higher than the UK for example). The approval rate climbed dramatically under the ALP it doesn't take a genius to see why. Our acceptance rate IIRC used to be under 20% then wow it gets near 90%. Surprise, surprise.

This has NOTHING to do with compassion. Its for the same reason Obama is so keen on immigration reform and why New Labour flooded the UK with migrants. Why is the ALP so keen on family reunion?

The useful idiots are clueless that they are simply delusional pawns in a blatant piece of gerrymandering.

 

[Malifice]

FFS Mal, why do you always have to blatantly misrepresent what other say?

Boat people take the place of genuine refugees in camps.



Lol at your idiotic racist nonsense.

On what possible basis would I want to advocate higher crime, worse schools, worse hospitals, higher unemployment, worse public transport etc?

That isn't racism, that is common sense. You don't have a rational argument, hence the pathetic 1st year Arts strategy of cry racism.

I wasn't talking about refugees Meds. I was talking about economic immigrants. They're different things.

Secondly - we took a ton of Vietnamese refugees after the war there. I don't see a lot of crime anymore from them? A lot of dentists maybe. Also political refugees from Zimbabwe aren't doing anything bad.

Again - Are you saying 'all refugees are criminals' or 'just the brown ones are'?

Like - if England gets invaded, should we not let them come here as refugees 'because they'll all be crimibals'?

Seems to me that it's not refugees you're talking about. It's brown people.

 

[Malifice]

No one is talking about "brown skinned ones" except you and Gough.
I don't see anyone bashing "brown skinned" of Indian descent or heritage, do you?
We are talking illegal migrates who are taking the piss out of Australia.

Sigh. Read my post.

I'm comparing illegal immigrants (non refugees who come here by boat, ie economic immigrants) with those that fly in by air.

We all agree refugees (genuine refugees) have the right to cross our borders whenever they want, with no paperwork, in whatever means they choose, and that once they do so, Australia has an obligation towards them (non persecution and non refoulment).

My question is: Why are we harsher on economic immigrants that come by boat, over those that fly here?

 

[crackerjack4X4]

Sigh. Read my post.

My question is: Why are we harsher on economic immigrants that come by boat, over those that fly here?

Are you just playing the game or are you dumb as mud?
Those who come by boat, fly half way around the world then destroy their documents before jumping on a boat.
Those who fly here have a passport. WTF don't you understand about that.

 

[Maggie5]

Are you just playing the game or are you dumb as mud?
Those who come by boat, fly half way around the world then destroy their documents before jumping on a boat.
Those who fly here have a passport. WTF don't you understand about that.

I think it may be you not understanding.
I have posted figures of tens of thousand migrants that have overstayed their various visa and are therefore illegal in this country. Many are working and have settled here, yet there is no outrage.
Sure they have a passport and were granted a visa for a certain period but then get lost in the community.
But hey let's pick on people fleeing persecution or seeking a better life even though they risk losing their life making the journey.

 

[crackerjack4X4]

Ok Maggie lets just have open borders and empty Africa and the ME, what then Einstein???

 

[Malifice]

Are you just playing the game or are you dumb as mud?
Those who come by boat, fly half way around the world then destroy their documents before jumping on a boat.
Those who fly here have a passport. WTF don't you understand about that.

Cut out the personal attacks.

My point is what about the visa overstayers? Why punish the economic migrants that come here by boat with detention and not the economic migrants that fly here and overstay a visa?

Can you answer the question?