Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Malifice]

Ok Maggie lets just have open borders and empty Africa and the ME, what then Einstein???

Why so caught up on the Africans and Arabs and not the Europeans?

Plenty more European economic immigrants flying in and overstaying visas that Arabs or Africans coming in by boat.

Should we lock up those guys in Nairu?

 

[medusala]

Secondly - we took a ton of Vietnamese refugees after the war there. I don't see a lot of crime anymore from them?

Perhaps open your eyes.

The Vietnamese community has always had a very high comparative crime rate (particularly drug related). See table 2. Far higher than Australian born (which is misleading anyway as that counts those of Vietnamese origin born in Australia.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi117.pdf

and again.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous series/publications-archive/1980s/vietnamese-refugees-crime-rates-minors-youths-nsw.html#findings
Research was undertaken to investigate whether these factors lead to a disproportionately high crime rate for Vietnamese refugees, ages 10 to 24, accompanied and/or unaccompanied.

My point is what about the visa overstayers?

Why do you continually repeat this crap? NOONE is arguing they should be allowed to stay. The difference is obvious re arrival.

They came here LEGALLY

Should we lock up those guys in Nairu?

Pathetic. A) asylum seekers are can leave if they desire and b) visa overstayers from places like the UK can and are deported (how many failed asylum seekers were deported by Rudd Gillard?)

Seriously Mal, stop posting, your car crash is just making the pro illegal immigrant argument look like satire and shit satire at that.

 

[Malifice]

Perhaps open your eyes.

The Vietnamese community has always had a very high comparative crime rate (particularly drug related). See table 2. Far higher than Australian born (which is misleading anyway as that counts those of Vietnamese origin born in Australia.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi117.pdf

and again.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/previous series/publications-archive/1980s/vietnamese-refugees-crime-rates-minors-youths-nsw.html#findings
Research was undertaken to investigate whether these factors lead to a disproportionately high crime rate for Vietnamese refugees, ages 10 to 24, accompanied and/or unaccompanied.

This is from 30 years ago Meds.

The overwhelming number of Vietnamese refugees have settled in just fine as productive members of society since.

No-one doubts that poor low socioeconomic peeps commit more crime than the wealthy upper socioeconomic ones. It's a fundamental of criminology.

Not as strong as the gender bias of crime though, so by your logic we should ban men from immigrating.

 

[medusala]

This is from 30 years ago Meds. .

Hardly my fault states stopped gathering crime by ethnicity stats

Not as strong as the gender bias of crime though, so by your logic we should ban men from immigrating.

Compare UK males for crime and income vs refugees. Yep, no brainer. Why would anyone suggest we import the latter instead of the former? Other than because the latter will be massively disproportionate alp voters.

Every argument you make is so easily dismissed, its like batting against Scott Muller

No-one doubts that poor low socioeconomic peeps commit more crime than the wealthy upper socioeconomic ones.

Lol, so are you now further destroying your argument by admitting refugees contribute stuff all economically?

Pointless discussing with someone who is so ignorant on the subject.

#Dresden

 

[Malifice]

Hardly my fault states stopped gathering crime by ethnicity stats



Compare UK males for crime and income vs refugees. Yep, no brainer. Why would anyone suggest we import the latter instead of the former? Other than because the latter will be massively disproportionate alp voters.

Every argument you make is so easily dismissed, its like batting against Scott Muller



Lol, so are you now further destroying your argument by admitting refugees contribute stuff all economically?

Pointless discussing with someone who is so ignorant on the subject.

#Dresden

You don't even try anymore do you?

They stopped reporting because the problems largely went away after a few generations. Just like it did with the Italians and Greeks before hand, and the Irish before that and so forth.

Not that there aren't still a few bad eggs from all waves of migrants still around of course.

It's ok. We both know you think that there is a racial/ biological reason for crime. And intelligence. And other 'traits'. We've been over this before enough for me to know what you're on about, even if youre too smart to admit it publicly.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Cut out the personal attacks.

Seriously? Very poor form for someone who has no problem throwing around personal attacks like accusations of being racist or a troll.

My point is what about the visa overstayers? Why punish the economic migrants that come here by boat with detention and not the economic migrants that fly here and overstay a visa?

Again ....its a strawman argument.

Visa overstayers are sent into immigration detention awaiting their deportation.

They just have to be found first.

Also, because they came in with a visa and the associated records the process is usually alot easier.

This is from 30 years ago Meds.

The overwhelming number of Vietnamese refugees have settled in just fine as productive members of society since.

No-one doubts that poor low socioeconomic peeps commit more crime than the wealthy upper socioeconomic ones. It's a fundamental of criminology.

I think the point is that there is no doubt that refugees need more help than the average immigrant.

With the evolution of the economy from a manufacturing to one that is service based it is no longer so easy to simply absorb hundreds of thousands of unskilled migrants like in the 1970s. Our mainstream immigration program reflects this change in philosophy.

Thats why strategic planning is required to ensure that slums and intergenerational anti-social behaviour doesn't become a permanent fixture.

Its the difference between Australia and Europe with regards to the issue of asylum seekers.

 

[medusala]

They stopped reporting because the problems largely went away after a few generations.

Lol Mal. Its because of political interference. See racial profiling of suspects and how much the progressive sorts hate it.

You know as well as others that certain ethnic groups are massively over represented in crime figures in Australia, just as they are in the US and UK.

If you think poverty and crime is linked then how can you argue otherwise?

You are just contradicting yourself yet not smart enough to realise it

Not a great source but it has links. Same story elsewhere as Australia re refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

According to the figures from Danmarks Statistik, crime rate among refugees and their descendants is 73% higher than for the male population average, even when taking into account their socioeconomic background.

The overall probability that a person living in Norway would be convicted for a felony (no: forbrytelse) was increased by about 0.5 percentage points for the immigrant compared to non-immigrant populations for felonies committed in the years 2001-2004. The incidence was especially high among immigrants from Kosovo, Morocco, Somalia, Iraq, Iran and Chile, and reached more than 2% in all these groups. In comparison, the incidence in the non-immigrant population was about 0.7%

 

[Malifice]

Lol Mal. Its because of political interference. See racial profiling of suspects and how much the progressive sorts hate it.

You know as well as others that certain ethnic groups are massively over represented in crime figures in Australia, just as they are in the US and UK.

If you think poverty and crime is linked then how can you argue otherwise?

You are just contradicting yourself yet not smart enough to realise it

Not a great source but it has links. Same story elsewhere as Australia re refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

According to the figures from Danmarks Statistik, crime rate among refugees and their descendants is 73% higher than for the male population average, even when taking into account their socioeconomic background.

The overall probability that a person living in Norway would be convicted for a felony (no: forbrytelse) was increased by about 0.5 percentage points for the immigrant compared to non-immigrant populations for felonies committed in the years 2001-2004. The incidence was especially high among immigrants from Kosovo, Morocco, Somalia, Iraq, Iran and Chile, and reached more than 2% in all these groups. In comparison, the incidence in the non-immigrant population was about 0.7%

I'm not disagreeing that new migrants from poorer nations suffer higher crime rates (and victimisation rates).

I'm disagreeing with your implication that it's because of race.

People don't steal because they're black. They steal because they're poor.

 

[GuruJane]

I can't help but get the feeling it's the ethnicity of the boat arrivals that gets your goat, not the differing means by which they get here opposed to those that fly in.[/QUOTE]

Spare me the crocodile tears mate.

I think we both agree that economic migrants need to be controlled however. But that being the case, why do I never see you rail on about Visa overstayers who fly in from Europe?

Because only a small percentage of visa overstayers who fly in (legally) claim asylum whereas ALL people smuggler economic migrants do.
Those fly ins who claim asylum get processed the same as those who have come by boat. However from my memory far less of them pass the processing test because, unlike people smuggled boat arrivals, they have not destroyed their passports and ids and are therefore easier to check.

I can't help but get the feeling it's the ethnicity of the boat arrivals that gets your goat, not the differing means by which they get here opposed to those that fly in.

What ethnicity would that be and what's your evidence?

 

[Gough]

You wanted refugees arriving by boat to suffer, this government has granted your wish. You should be happy, so shut the f*** up, rejoice in their misery.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Fair perspective by Tony Kevin on Operation sovereign borders.

He's been a harsh critic of asylum seeker policy since the Tampa.

Would be a good starting point if labor wants to be serious and to differentiate themselves from the libs while having an effective strategy to keep the boats under control.

http://www.themandarin.com.au/40900-tony-kevin-boat-people-policy-challenge/?pgnc=1

Michael Pezzullo, then Customs boss, and former diplomat turned commentator Tony Kevin were harsh critics of each other over SIEV tragedies and the Operation Sovereign Borders alternative. Then Tony Kevin saw deaths at sea had stopped. He argues turn-back was successful and the camps must go.

He's particularly critical of the lack of professionalism of the department under labor which led to many deaths at sea.

 

[Maggie5]

Ok Maggie lets just have open borders and empty Africa and the ME, what then Einstein???

So it is the dark skinned that you are worried about, still haven't answered the question.

 

[Maggie5]

QUOTE]
Because only a small percentage of visa overstayers who fly in (legally) claim asylum/QUOTE]
Yes only are 'small' % seek asylum, they majority just hide in plain sight but little is done about you, No outrage?

 

[GuruJane]

If they don't claim asylum, Maggie, they are not asylum seekers.

 

[Maggie5]

If they don't claim asylum, Maggie, they are not asylum seekers.

Correct but they are illegally in the country which is what I was referring to.
People coming in on boats are seeking asylum and it is not illegal to seek asylum.

 

[GuruJane]

Correct but they are illegally in the country which is what I was referring to.
People coming in on boats are seeking asylum and it is not illegal to seek asylum.

But there is no comparison. Visa overstayers are NOT asylum seekers and they are NOT even migrants, econoomic or otherwise because they are not trying to get Australian citizenship. Furthermore they all arrived here legally with passports and visas.

In contrast, boat arrivals have all paid people smugglers very large sums of money in the belief that they will get Australian citizenship if they claim asylum after arriving here illegally. To this effect most of them destroy their passports and ID to make it harder for Australian authorities to check their stories.

Visa overstayers do none of these things and there is no comparison between the two cohorts.

 

[GuruJane]

You wanted refugees arriving by boat to suffer, this government has granted your wish. You should be happy, so shut the f*** up, rejoice in their misery.

Go back to visualising the prime ministers penis, might put you in a better mood.

 

[Gough]

Tell me about this queue Jane, the one boat arrivals are jumping in your view. How do you go about joining it, is it like the SACA, or the MCC, do you pay a fee, and wait until your number comes up? If I was a a Hazara in Afghanistan, do I just march into the local Australian consulate, or UN office, and sign up? What if I never had a passport in the first place? I'm interested because you seem very concerned about "genuine" refugees, it would be nice if you could explain the "official" process that is gone through in order to be resettled in this country. I'm sure someone as knowledgeable as you on this topic can explain all of this.

 

[Maggie5]

But there is no comparison. Visa overstayers are NOT asylum seekers and they are NOT even migrants, econoomic or otherwise because they are not trying to get Australian citizenship. Furthermore they all arrived here legally with passports and visas.

In contrast, boat arrivals have all paid people smugglers very large sums of money in the belief that they will get Australian citizenship if they claim asylum after arriving here illegally. To this effect most of them destroy their passports and ID to make it harder for Australian authorities to check their stories.

Visa overstayers do none of these things and there is no comparison between the two cohorts.

Way to miss the point but to continue to push your bias.
So according to you the best way to get to Australia and make it your home is to arrive here with a passport on a legal visa, then disappear into the community, is that right?
Try again, are they illegally in the country if they overstay their visa?
Are they working illegally in the country?
Have they committed an offence by overstaying their visas?
You seem unconcerned about this, good on you, keeping pushing the asylum seekers, stop the boats, Mr Abbott, err sorry almost forgot your name GJ.

 

[Maggie5]

Go back to visualising the prime ministers penis, might put you in a better mood.

Seriously, can you stop with the personal stuff? Really annoying.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Its a pointless semantical argument but in computer science terms its a priority queue

This is contrasted from the typical concept of a queue....first in first out that Gough is holding on to.

Because of a limitation of resources, in a priority queue just because you've been waiting the longest doesn't mean you get served first

There are a set of criteria which determines whether you are waiting in camps for a few years or twenty years or longer with regards to the UN resettlement program.

This is usually a balance between whom the UN deems to be in need and the cost to the host country.

For example if you're old you're less likely to meet the criteria than young people.

Family groups have a better chance than single males.

If you're disabled... lol good luck.

Of course the resettlement program is outside of the bounds of the refugee convention which is why some focus on semantics rather than practicality.

However because of the limitation of resources there is no doubt that in the past for every boat person that paid their way to refugee status in Australia meant less for those without the means to garner our sympathy.

Labor recognized this and raised the humanitarian intake to 20000 in response.

But if the boats keep coming, you can't keep on raising it forever.

 

[GuruJane]

However because of the limitation of resources there is no doubt that in the past for every boat person that paid their way to refugee status in Australia meant less for those without the means to garner our sympathy.

Labor recognized this and raised the humanitarian intake to 20000 in response.

But if the boats keep coming, you can't keep on raising it forever.

It would be nice to think Labor was being all humanitarian but alas the sole reason Labor raised the humanitarian quota, Mids, was to sop up the 10s of thousands of claimants who were coming through the system every year from 2011 onwards and who were gonna be presented with citizenship by the beleaguered schmucks at DIAC.
Gawd, if Labor had been re-elected they would have to have raised the humanitarian quota to 50,000 plus by now

 

[Maggie5]

It would be nice to think Labor was being all humanitarian but alas the sole reason Labor raised the humanitarian quota, Mids, was to sop up the 10s of thousands of claimants who were coming through the system every year from 2011 onwards and who were gonna be presented with citizenship by the beleaguered schmucks at DIAC.
Gawd, if Labor had been re-elected they would have to have raised the humanitarian quota to 50,000 plus by now

Which would be about 12,00 less than the over stayers that are estimated to be 62,000 as at December 2014.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...g-illegally-in-australia-20141226-12dxod.html
http://www.australianmigrations.com...stralias-growing-number-of-visa-over-stayers/
http://www.interstaff.com/visa-overstayers-compared-number-asylum-seekers

Older stories in 2012, I wonder who was in government then?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/wear-out-welcome/story-e6freuy9-1226438043184
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...n-asylum-seekers/story-fn9hm1gu-1226493178289

Not much about it in the press from these two organisations lately, I wonder why?

 

[midorigreenwood]

Maggie you don't realize it but you're actually making a case for offshore processing.

In the UK, asylum seekers used to be processed in the community and thousands essentially became illegal immigrants and hid from the authorities once they failed the process...

no different to visa overstayers.

Onshore processing makes it easier for economic migrants to obfuscate the system.

 

[Gough]

Why are the vast majority of these so called economic migrants found to be refugees? It's all very well to dismiss them as such, but it's not very factual.