Does it take too long for clubs to rebuild their lists?

[Blackas87]

It would mean the powerful, successful clubs would pick the eyes out of every draft. The smaller clubs would be left with crumbs unless they're willing to pay overs for unproven kids.

Nonsense.

Without a draft, this would be the news arms race. It would be sketchy as hell. The draft standardises it while also being far more effective in terms of equalisation.

Your "solution" also involves some clubs playing 80 per cent of the salary cap. How is that good for the competition? You'd basically have the bottom clubs being even less competitive in any given season.

But they wouldn't have been able to. Because bigger clubs would have gazumped you.

To say nothing of the Queensland clubs who'd be left with SFA.

I don't think you've really considered the implications of what you've outlined.

Paying 95% of the floor just means some players are getting overpaid.

Why would the bigger clubs gazumpe us? Because they're bigger? If we could offer the best deals at best plan going forward players would join.

Plenty of players would want to go to QLD, why wouldn't they if they are getting a good deal, plus the academies, they can develop local talent.

Anyway I'm off.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Carlton is interesting case study.

What seems to be killing them is not only poor drafting last few years but the fact they have lost so much senior talent with Betts, Gartlett, Touhy and Gibbs.

Youll tread water forever with that mix

 

[doppleganger]

The salary cap floor, for all clubs, the top clubs would be paying close to 100% to keep their winning teams together, the bottom clubs would have more cap room to recruit players. Currently everyone must pay 95% of the cap. Brisbane is paying 95% of what Richmond, Adelaide, GWS and Hawthorn, how are they supposed to recruit players?

Are you sure that is actually how it works?

My understanding is that the clubs will always end up paying 95% of the cap, but they don’t actually have to do it through contracts.

Brisbane might only have 80% of money allocated to player contracts.

The AFL then notify the AFLPA of the shortfall, and Brisbane are obligated to provide the shortfall to the AFL and then it will be distributed to all listed players as determined by AFLPA after consultation with the list.

So clubs will end up paying their list the minimum, but doesn’t necessarily require them to have signed playing contracts to that amount.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

I still suspect the greatest predictor of this kind of sustained success is the ability to do well in a couple of consecutive drafts.

If you can go to three drafts in a row and add two players each year, all of whom play 200 games over the next 10-12 years, that is the base for sustained success. Because within that period, assuming you retain that core, you can basically take two runs at contending, maybe with a brief top-up period in the middle rather than a root-and-branch rebuild, because you've still got that core of players. You just need to refurbish everything around them with astute trading/free agency moves.

Clubs who don't get that run of draft success – let's say two effective picks in three drafts in a row – have a much harder time making that consistent, sustained improvement because their list profile is out of whack.

Look at Carlton – just as they were improving last season, they lose Gibbs. And it made sense to ship him out because he was 29 and there was a sweet deal on offer. But they then take a hit without him this year. Should they trade out Kreuzer and Murphy this season on the same logic?

Agree but the drafts don’t really need to be consecutive. Hawthorn had two monster drafts in 2001 and 2004. Their 2005 and 2006 drafts were stinkers though.

Richmond drafted:

Cotchin and Rance in 07
Vickery and Post in 08
Martin, Astbury and Grimes in 09

Two or three big drafts will put any club on the right track.

 

[Blackas87]

Are you sure that is actually how it works?

My understanding is that the clubs will always end up paying 95% of the cap, but they don’t actually have to do it through contracts.

Brisbane might only have 80% of money allocated to player contracts.

The AFL then notify the AFLPA of the shortfall, and Brisbane are obligated to provide the shortfall to the AFL and then it will be distributed to all listed players as determined by AFLPA after consultation with the list.

So clubs will end up paying their list the minimum, but doesn’t necessarily require them to have signed playing contracts to that amount.

Not 100% sure how it works. Melbourne's old ceo Cameron Schwab was explaining when we weren't reaching 95%, say we were paying 90%, we were able to pay 5% of the following years contracts forward therefore freeing up cap space the following year. But I'm sure what you explained probably also applies.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Paying 95% of the floor just means some players are getting overpaid.

You can't have clubs deliberately running down their total player payments, becoming increasingly uncompetitive in the process, just so they can pay more money to unproven kids at season's end. If people want a more competitive competition, that's a recipe for the opposite.

Again, I don't think you have fully considered how that would shake out.

Why would the bigger clubs gazumpe us? Because they're bigger? If we could offer the best deals at best plan going forward players would join.

Because for the really highly rated kids, the big clubs would find the money. We know this because that's what happened previously. Again, you make these suggestions as though there is no precedent for them. But there is. We've seen what happens without equalisation measures.

Every year, the WA clubs would basically divvy up the top handful of WA kids. The same would happen in SA.

In Victoria, the most powerful clubs would lobby hard for the most highly rated kids and the smaller clubs would either end up having to pay overs for unproven kids or be left with the crumbs.

And the clubs in the northern states would do what? They'd be screwed.

It's baffling that you don't see how these trends would inevitably hold sway.

Plenty of players would want to go to QLD, why wouldn't they if they are getting a good deal, plus the academies, they can develop local talent.

You're not making sense now.

The whole reason the Queensland clubs have a challenge is because there simply isn't enough home-grown talent and the kids they draft from interstate have a habit of leaving after a few seasons. The whole problem is that players from interstate don't want to go to Queensland. This can't be news to you. Not having spent an hour or so discussing the problems different clubs have attracting players. Now you say "plenty of players would want to go to QLD"? Since when?

Yes, they have academies. That's great. But they're clearly not sufficient on their own.

The draft underpins the national competition by ensuring that, at the very least, clubs in the northern states have an equal access to young talent. If you abolished the draft, that access would immediately become unequal because teams would concentrate on their own backyards, believing that's where they had the competitive advantage. Fine for WA and SA teams but a raw deal for the northern states and the smaller Victorian clubs.

Again, it's just arse-backwards to argue that fewer equalisation methods would result in greater equalisation. There's a reason for having the draft.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Agree but the drafts don’t really need to be consecutive. Hawthorn had two monster drafts in 2001 and 2004. Their 2005 and 2006 drafts were stinkers though.

Richmond drafted:

Cotchin and Rance in 07
Vickery and Post in 08
Martin, Astbury and Grimes in 09

Two or three big drafts will put any club on the right track.

Not literally one after the other, no. But in a window of a few years.

 

[MF]

Regardless of the measures you put in place there's always going to be a few unlucky teams that simply sit on the bottom of the ladder for a while.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

You had a good think about it and have come up with some ideas so kudos.
1. Decreasing the list doesnt take into account the reserves comp that is said to come in, it also doesnt help new player development if there is no 2nds.
2. Even though point 2 covers the shortfalls it can be manipulated to the point of making the 30 man list a joke ie Scott Thompson for the Crows would become a rookie every year after he turns 30 and activated round 1. Gary Ablett a rookie?

3. On the 19 year olds I do agree on and for all the reasons you raised. The ladder draft position stays

Concern I have about increasing the draft age is it will encourage talent to consider options. It might be an issue more in NSW and QLD, but potentially everywhere.
The NRL clubs have almost complete freedom on who to recruit and when to recruit them. A talent like Heeney might have been hard to keep out of their clutches until 19. He had the option to play Rugby or cricket.

 

[GreyCrow]

Concern I have about increasing the draft age is it will encourage talent to consider options. It might be an issue more in NSW and QLD, but potentially everywhere.
The NRL clubs have almost complete freedom on who to recruit and when to recruit them. A talent like Heeney might have been hard to keep out of their clutches until 19. He had the option to play Rugby or cricket.

Interesting viewpoint. Alex Carey (Giants-Redbacks ) only chose cricket after the Giants cut him from their supplementary list after dominating. Alex Keath chose not to play for the Gold Coast after being drafted as a supplementary 17 yr old wanting to try and break into the Victorian Squad.

I wonder though if being 19 before drafting might help those split between 2 sports to choose? isnt it better for our children to enjoy their sport instead of facing pressure because they happen to be drafted.

I assume you have more experience in the 2 Rugby states and your perspective puts another slant on it. Doesnt Keiran Jack hinder your argument?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Interesting viewpoint. Alex Carey (Giants-Redbacks ) only chose cricket after the Giants cut him from their supplementary list after dominating. Alex Keath chose not to play for the Gold Coast after being drafted as a supplementary 17 yr old wanting to try and break into the Victorian Squad.

I wonder though if being 19 before drafting might help those split between 2 sports to choose? isnt it better for our children to enjoy their sport instead of facing pressure because they happen to be drafted.

I assume you have more experience in the 2 Rugby states and your perspective puts another slant on it. Doesnt Keiran Jack hinder your argument?

Dylan Shiel is still pissed about Alex Carey so the less said the better. Cruel decisions have to made sometimes.
I don't think Kieran Jack choosing AFL ultimately means there's no risk. I seem to recall his dad played AFL as a youngster as well as league and ultimately went the other way.
I do get your point and it's a hard disciplined life on an AFL list. Of course it matters that kids get a chance to grow up first.
Not sure of the solution though. We have had Finlayson tied to us since the age of 16 via an academy scholarship. Tex Walker similar I believe through a North Adelaide scholarship? In both cases they had to leave home at a very young age, and their future tied very much to hard work and development as a player.
Not sure waiting a year helps.

 

[ThaiTiger]

Regardless of the measures you put in place there's always going to be a few unlucky teams that simply sit on the bottom of the ladder for a while.

This is what I don't get. There are 18 teams. Someone has to be on the bottom and someone has to be on the top. I don't recall sympathy for Richmond over the last 35 years but I wasn't on bigfooty back then. Seriously, the Lions won 3 on the trot, Carlton are equal on 16 flags with Essendon. Someone has to be at the bottom and as long as it ain't Richmond I don't care. What are we teaching the kids today? Not everyone gets to win every time.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Firstly, the term rebuild is a cop out. It is simply a buzzword to buy club administrators and coaching staff time before a list gets so bad they get sacked. Hawthorn and Geelong dipped into the national draft in full force probably about once or twice. Hawthorn in 01 and 04, Geelong in 99 and 01 (Selwood pick 7 in 06).

You can’t just keep ‘bottoming out’ (another bullshit buzzword) and accumulating draft picks. By now every BF poster should know draft numbers are a bonus, once they get to AFL level they’re just a bunch of kids vying for a spot with everyone else. Has Swallow, Boyd, McCartin, Weitering or Rayner solved all the problems of their respective clubs?

Hawthorn built a triple premiership team around rookies, late picks, and trades. I don’t think Richmond had a team brimming with top picks either. You can’t just keep pouring nice clean water down rusty pipes, it’ll go in clean but come out looking like shit.

The club has to foster an environment where success is at the forefront of the club ethos. Again, Hawthorn & Geelong stand out to me. The reason a ‘rebuild’ is preferred is because its easy. My club took the easy route from 07 to 13 before Paul Roos came in and actually started shifting our culture (hasn’t been great thus far in 2018 but definitely better than under Bailey and Neeld).

The hard part is building a culture where you can get the best out of players you need irrespective of draft order. If you need any more proof it’s a load of shit then look at Carlton & Melbourne. Two perennial basket case clubs were mediocrity has become the norm.

Add “mini-rebuild” to the list of bullshit terms.

 

[HeHateMe]

I prefer one set of rules for all clubs.

Would be 1 rule though based on the year priors results.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[demondavey]

Add “mini-rebuild” to the list of bullshit terms.

Exactly. Mini rebuild is synonymous with what Silvagni has done at Carlton. Recruit a heap of GWS players for ‘depth’.

Rebuilds are a load of shit that just give fat cat officials an excuse to remain on high salaries. The board just sells it to members with a sexy marketing theme ‘they know we’re coming’.

Spare me.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Add “mini-rebuild” to the list of bullshit terms.

As opposed to just "improvement".

 

[demondavey]

Not literally one after the other, no. But in a window of a few years.

You only need one or two cracks at the draft. If you keep going back it means something is broken.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

As opposed to just "improvement".

Mini rebuild is just a bullshit term that makes no sense.
Unless club facilities are being downsized to accommodate short people or something.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

1. Carlton put themselves in this mess with years of ignorant drafting throughout the first rebuild.
2. Carlton doesn't need any extra help because they are finally drafting with smarts. Been doing so since SOS and Bolts walked in the door.
3. Those that have been traded out by Carlton had to go for the need to repair club culture. Many wanted out for their own reasons.
4. SOS has so far proven he is a satisfactory list manager. He has gotten the best out of every situation and has certainly torched the likes of Wayne Hughes and Shane Rogers, both of whom ****** our list up.

Want proof? Take a look at our 2008-2014 drafts and how SOS tried to fix us up from them!

2008 - Chris Yarran - Held a disinterested attitude during his last couple of years. Traded him before he walked out on the game which is a benefit for us, albeit a small one.
Mitch Robinson (Traded - Loss of respect and trust), Rhys O'Keefe (Dud Pick), Caleb Tiller (Dud Pick), Jeff Garlett (Traded - Same reason as Robinson)
Luke Stanton (Dud Pick), Greg Bentley (Dud Pick), Darren Pfeiffer (Dud Pick), Lachie Hill (Dud Pick), Sam Jacobs (Requested trade home for opportunity)
Only gain we have from losing all of this is David Cuningham.

2009 - Kane Lucas - Simply couldn't meet expectations. Delisted, only to be picked up as a rookie and after two seasons West Coast saw the same problem.
Marcus Davies (Dud Pick), Rohan Kerr (Dud Pick), Jaryd Cachia (Dud pick - drafted and delisted twice), Joe Dare (Dud Pick)
Levi Casboult (Inconsistent KPF with a reputation of poor set-shot kicking), Simon White (Delisted - Serviceable depth player), Josh Donaldson (Dud Pick)
Zach Tuohy (Traded - wanted out for more money and success)
Just from Tuohy and a future second-round pick, we ended up with Billie Smedts, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett

Jarrod Pickett

Age

29

Ht

178cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.8

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

3.1

3star

M

1.9

2star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.5

3star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.2

4star

G

0.4

3star

, Harrison Macreadie, Cameron Polson, Tom Williamson and Patrick Kerr. Marchbank, Pickett and Williamson show promising signs while supporters hang onto hope with the rest.

2010 - Matthew Watson - Another who failed to deliver. Only ever a 'flash in the pan' player.
Patrick McCarthy (Dud Pick), Luke Mitchell (Dud Pick), Andrew McInnes (Dud Pick - A fail in the eyes of Malthouse)
Nick Duigan (Retired - Good while he lasted but was disrespected in his last year), Ed Curnow (Club leader and warrior), Wayde Twomey (Dud Pick), Mitchell Carter (Dud Pick), Blake Bray (Dud Pick)

2011 - Josh Bootsma - Honestly don't know what Hughes (if that's who was in charge at the time) saw in this pick. Looked nothing but an attempt to obtain a cult figure with no regards to long-term impact. This guy became a joke among people for a couple of years and shot himself in the foot, getting sacked for a stupid choice of action.
Sam Rowe (Necessary depth), Dylan Buckley (Failed to deliver for us), Tom Bell (Serviceable player - wanted trade closer to home for family reasons)
Frazer Dale (Dud Pick), Nicholas Heyne (Dud Pick), Matthew Lodge (Dud Pick)
Trading Bell helped us with getting Charlie Curnow.

2012 - Troy Menzel - Someone whose skills were that greatly admired by many, but couldn't bother showing proper commitment in the team.
Tom Temay (Dud Pick), Nick Graham (Serviceable depth player - VFL standard), Andrew Collins (Delisted then picked up as a rookie - Traded from Richmond and failed to deliver).
Trading Menzel led us to getting Sam Kerridge, Jed Lamb

Jed Lamb

Age

33

Ht

181cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.3

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.8

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

1.8

2star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.2

3star

, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner and Harry McKay.

2013 - Patrick Cripps - Rogers pulled this one out of his arse. At the same time, not many other teams looked at this guy as anything worth more than what we got him for. And he is someone I fear we could easily lose if we continue with the disappointing results.
Cameron Giles (Dud Pick - A case of bad luck for him), Nick Holman (Baffling decision to remove him, making great strides at Gold Coast)
Luke Reynolds (Dud Pick), Cameron Wood (Serviceable depth player), Blaine Johnson (Failed to deliver), Ciaran Sheehan (Failed To Deliver - Injury Prone)
Ciaran Byrne (potential club star but injury prone)

2014 - Blaine Boekhorst - Decided to go for a player all other clubs believed was third-round at best. Picked someone on the back of them mocking our deplorable efforts on social media. Mature age recruit who at times looked to care about playing but in the end didn't want to lift above his weight.
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow (Dud Pick), Clem Smith (Dud Pick), Jayden Foster (Dud Pick), Jason Tutt (Dud Pick)
Billy Gowers (Wasn't for us apparently - dogs saw differently), Brad Walsh (Dud Pick), Tom Fields (Dud Pick - Only known for his barrel kicks)
Just about everything from this off-season was downright pathetic.

We were led to having what was deemed as the 'worst list ever seen' among both fans and footy experts back in 2015.
Only 6 out of 55 players survived the dark drafting period for their commitment/potential.

Not all the players we have right now are guaranteed to be successes, but Stephen Silvagni has made good out of very little, and I couldn't be happier for what he has done for us.

In the end when it comes to drafting, Carlton dug themselves into a hole and are now digging themselves out of it. It's now a matter of trying to develop the talent we have, which is indeed a huge challenge given the tough position we are currently in (with an intense injury list including our captain, vice-captain, a small forward and three defensive pillars).

 

[Farm Boy]

1. Carlton put themselves in this mess with years of ignorant drafting throughout the first rebuild.
2. Carlton doesn't need any extra help because they are finally drafting with smarts. Been doing so since SOS and Bolts walked in the door.
3. Those that have been traded out by Carlton had to go for the need to repair club culture. Many wanted out for their own reasons.
4. SOS is so far proven he is a satisfactory list manager. He has gotten the best out of every situation and has certainly torched the likes of Wayne Hughes and Shane Rogers, both of whom ****** our list up.

Want proof? Take a look at our 2008-2014 drafts and how SOS tried to fix us up from them!

2008 - Chris Yarran - Held a disinterested attitude during his last couple of years. Traded him before he walked out on the game which is a benefit for us, albeit a small one.
Mitch Robinson (Traded - Loss of respect and trust), Rhys O'Keefe (Dud Pick), Caleb Tiller (Dud Pick), Jeff Garlett (Traded - Same reason as Robinson)
Luke Stanton (Dud Pick), Greg Bentley (Dud Pick), Darren Pfeiffer (Dud Pick), Lachie Hill (Dud Pick), Sam Jacobs (Requested trade home for opportunity)
Only gain we have from losing all of this is David Cuningham.

2009 - Kane Lucas - Simply couldn't meet expectations. Delisted, only to be picked up as a rookie and after two seasons West Coast saw the same problem.
Marcus Davies (Dud Pick), Rohan Kerr (Dud Pick), Jaryd Cachia (Dud pick - drafted and delisted twice), Joe Dare (Dud Pick)
Levi Casboult (Inconsistent KPF with a reputation of poor set-shot kicking), Simon White (Delisted - Serviceable depth player), Josh Donaldson (Dud Pick)
Zach Tuohy (Traded - wanted out for more money and success.
Just from Tuohy and a future second-round pick, we ended up with Billie Smedts, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Harrison Macreadie, Cameron Polson, Tom Williamson and Patrick Kerr. Marchbank, Pickett and Williamson show promising signs while supporters hang onto hope with the rest.

2010 - Matthew Watson - Another who failed to deliver. Only ever a 'flash in the pan' player.
Patrick McCarthy (Dud Pick), Luke Mitchell (Dud Pick), Andrew McInnes (Dud Pick - A fail in the eyes of Malthouse)
Nick Duigan (Retired - Good while he lasted but was disrespected in his last year) Ed Curnow (Club leader and warrior), Wayde Twomey (Dud Pick), Mitchell Carter (Dud Pick), Blake Bray (Dud Pick)

2011 - Josh Bootsma - Honestly don't know what Hughes (if that's who was in charge at the time) saw in this pick. Looked nothing but an attempt to obtain a cult figure with no regards to long-term impact. This guy became a joke among people for a couple of years and shot himself in the foot, getting sacked for a stupid choice of action.
Sam Rowe (Necessary depth), Dylan Buckley (Failed to deliver for us), Tom Bell (Serviceable player - wanted trade closer to home for family reasons)
Frazer Dale (Dud Pick), Nicholas Heyne (Dud Pick), Matthew Lodge (Dud Pick)
Trading Bell helped us with getting Charlie Curnow.

2012 - Troy Menzel - Someone whose skills were that greatly admired by many, but couldn't bother in showing proper commitment for the team.
Tom Temay (Dud Pick), Nick Graham (Serviceable depth player - VFL standard) Andrew Collins (Delisted then pciked up as a rookie - Traded from Richmond and failed to deliver).
Trading Menzel led us to getting Sam Kerridge, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner and Harry McKay.

2013 - Patrick Cripps - Rogers pulled this one out of his arse. At the same time, not many other teams looked at this guy as anything worth more than what we got him for. And he is someone I fear we could easily lose if we continue with the disappointing results.
Cameron Giles (Dud Pick - A case of bad luck for him), Nick Holman (Baffling decision to remove him, making great strides at Gold Coast)
Luke Reynolds (Dud Pick), Cameron Wood (Serviceable depth player), Blaine Johnson (Failed to deliver), Ciaran Sheehan (Failed To Deliver - Injury Prone)
Ciaran Byrne (potential club star but injury prone)

2014 - Blaine Boekhorst - Decided to go for a player all other clubs believed was third-round at best. Picked someone on the back of them mocking our deplorable efforts on social media. Mature age recruit who at times looked to care about playing but in the end didn't want to lift above his weight.
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow (Dud Pick), Clem Smith (Dud Pick), Jayden Foster (Dud Pick), Jason Tutt (Dud Pick)
Billy Gowers (Wasn't for us apparently- dogs saw differently), Brad Walsh (Dud Pick), Tom Fields (Dud Pick - Only known for his barrel kicks)
Just about everything from this off-season was downright pathetic.

We were led to having what was deemed as the 'worst list ever seen' among both fans and foot experts back in 2015.
Only 5 survived the dark drafting period for both their commitment and potential.

Not all the players we have right now are guaranteed to be successes, but Stephen Silvagni has made good out of very little, and I couldn't be happier for what he has done for us.

In the end when it comes to drafting, Carlton dug themselves into a hole and are now digging themselves out of it. It's now a matter of trying to develop the talent we have, which is indeed a huge challenge given the tough position we are currently in.

That is a good write up. Cheers. It should be moved to the first page so it doesn't eventually get lost in the thread.

Those drafts and trades go a long way to understanding why Carlton are still where they are at present. We have our fair share of draft and trading failures down at St Kilda as well.

 

[Kwality]

The player talent pool is not big enough for 18 teams, poor list management (both in & out) is a sure recipe for on field pain.

Go back to the Saints in 2000 drafting Reiwoldt at #1 & Kossy at 2, it was 2009 before the Grand Final era & we've added another 90 players to the pool since then.

Elementary my dear Watson.

 

[Gavin Excell]

1. Carlton put themselves in this mess with years of ignorant drafting throughout the first rebuild.
2. Carlton doesn't need any extra help because they are finally drafting with smarts. Been doing so since SOS and Bolts walked in the door.
3. Those that have been traded out by Carlton had to go for the need to repair club culture. Many wanted out for their own reasons.
4. SOS has so far proven he is a satisfactory list manager. He has gotten the best out of every situation and has certainly torched the likes of Wayne Hughes and Shane Rogers, both of whom ****** our list up.

Want proof? Take a look at our 2008-2014 drafts and how SOS tried to fix us up from them!

2008 - Chris Yarran - Held a disinterested attitude during his last couple of years. Traded him before he walked out on the game which is a benefit for us, albeit a small one.
Mitch Robinson (Traded - Loss of respect and trust), Rhys O'Keefe (Dud Pick), Caleb Tiller (Dud Pick), Jeff Garlett (Traded - Same reason as Robinson)
Luke Stanton (Dud Pick), Greg Bentley (Dud Pick), Darren Pfeiffer (Dud Pick), Lachie Hill (Dud Pick), Sam Jacobs (Requested trade home for opportunity)
Only gain we have from losing all of this is David Cuningham.

2009 - Kane Lucas - Simply couldn't meet expectations. Delisted, only to be picked up as a rookie and after two seasons West Coast saw the same problem.
Marcus Davies (Dud Pick), Rohan Kerr (Dud Pick), Jaryd Cachia (Dud pick - drafted and delisted twice), Joe Dare (Dud Pick)
Levi Casboult (Inconsistent KPF with a reputation of poor set-shot kicking), Simon White (Delisted - Serviceable depth player), Josh Donaldson (Dud Pick)
Zach Tuohy (Traded - wanted out for more money and success)
Just from Tuohy and a future second-round pick, we ended up with Billie Smedts, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett, Harrison Macreadie, Cameron Polson, Tom Williamson and Patrick Kerr. Marchbank, Pickett and Williamson show promising signs while supporters hang onto hope with the rest.

2010 - Matthew Watson - Another who failed to deliver. Only ever a 'flash in the pan' player.
Patrick McCarthy (Dud Pick), Luke Mitchell (Dud Pick), Andrew McInnes (Dud Pick - A fail in the eyes of Malthouse)
Nick Duigan (Retired - Good while he lasted but was disrespected in his last year), Ed Curnow (Club leader and warrior), Wayde Twomey (Dud Pick), Mitchell Carter (Dud Pick), Blake Bray (Dud Pick)

2011 - Josh Bootsma - Honestly don't know what Hughes (if that's who was in charge at the time) saw in this pick. Looked nothing but an attempt to obtain a cult figure with no regards to long-term impact. This guy became a joke among people for a couple of years and shot himself in the foot, getting sacked for a stupid choice of action.
Sam Rowe (Necessary depth), Dylan Buckley (Failed to deliver for us), Tom Bell (Serviceable player - wanted trade closer to home for family reasons)
Frazer Dale (Dud Pick), Nicholas Heyne (Dud Pick), Matthew Lodge (Dud Pick)
Trading Bell helped us with getting Charlie Curnow.

2012 - Troy Menzel - Someone whose skills were that greatly admired by many, but couldn't bother showing proper commitment in the team.
Tom Temay (Dud Pick), Nick Graham (Serviceable depth player - VFL standard), Andrew Collins (Delisted then pciked up as a rookie - Traded from Richmond and failed to deliver).
Trading Menzel led us to getting Sam Kerridge, Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Liam Sumner and Harry McKay.

2013 - Patrick Cripps - Rogers pulled this one out of his arse. At the same time, not many other teams looked at this guy as anything worth more than what we got him for. And he is someone I fear we could easily lose if we continue with the disappointing results.
Cameron Giles (Dud Pick - A case of bad luck for him), Nick Holman (Baffling decision to remove him, making great strides at Gold Coast)
Luke Reynolds (Dud Pick), Cameron Wood (Serviceable depth player), Blaine Johnson (Failed to deliver), Ciaran Sheehan (Failed To Deliver - Injury Prone)
Ciaran Byrne (potential club star but injury prone)

2014 - Blaine Boekhorst - Decided to go for a player all other clubs believed was third-round at best. Picked someone on the back of them mocking our deplorable efforts on social media. Mature age recruit who at times looked to care about playing but in the end didn't want to lift above his weight.
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow (Dud Pick), Clem Smith (Dud Pick), Jayden Foster (Dud Pick), Jason Tutt (Dud Pick)
Billy Gowers (Wasn't for us apparently - dogs saw differently), Brad Walsh (Dud Pick), Tom Fields (Dud Pick - Only known for his barrel kicks)
Just about everything from this off-season was downright pathetic.

We were led to having what was deemed as the 'worst list ever seen' among both fans and footy experts back in 2015.
Only 6 out of 55 players survived the dark drafting period for their commitment/potential.

Not all the players we have right now are guaranteed to be successes, but Stephen Silvagni has made good out of very little, and I couldn't be happier for what he has done for us.

In the end when it comes to drafting, Carlton dug themselves into a hole and are now digging themselves out of it. It's now a matter of trying to develop the talent we have, which is indeed a huge challenge given the tough position we are currently in (with an intense injury list including our captain, vice-captain, a small forward and three defensive pillars).

That is brutal reading.

Reinforces my view that if you **** up your early picks at the draft on a regular basis as Carlton did during that period, the price paid is a heavy one

 

[Kram]

The player talent pool is not big enough for 18 teams, poor list management (both in & out) is a sure recipe for on field pain.

Go back to the Saints in 2000 drafting Reiwoldt at #1 & Kossy at 2, it was 2009 before the Grand Final era & we've added another 90 players to the pool since then.

Elementary my dear Watson.

Absolute garbage.

 

[vozzon]

Absolutely.

A well-run club shouldn't have to bottom out. There's ample evidence of this. I wish we didn't need to 'bottom out' as such, but our list was in diabolical shape in 2015. Wooden-spooners, top 4 for average age and paying 100% of the cap.

The club's heavily invested in the draft the past 3 years, we just need to stick it out.

Carlton have let go of so many good AFL standard players that it was always going to be a big re build. Who was the list manager at the time?

Looking back at your list management of your club the players that could have been on your list is massive, so many have succeeded elsewhere. Maybe its down to sheer luck or development of players but with Jacobs, Betts, Kennedy and others all being All Australian, you recruited talented players but never got to see the best of them.

Easy to look back now but the recruiters did pick up quality players the list just wasn't managed well.

Instead of getting Judd and picking up Kruezer you keep Kennedy and jacobs, get cotchin (over kruzer) to play alongside murphy and Gibbs and still have that pick 3 (from the judd trade) and the list looks more balanced with good players.

 

[ioppolo]

I have to say, this is one of the worst ideas I've heard.