Jason Dunstall vs Tony Lockett - who was better?

[Mofra]

An interesting question would be who would you have in today’s game? Allowing for today’s training standards etc...

Dunstall. That's not a slight on Plugger, it's purely gamestyle.

In the words of his FB opponents, he'd piss them off as he was the first full forward in the game to really chase and make defensive efforts.
Dunstall would also work in a system whereas Plugger was dominant and was the forwardline.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Plugger would have kicked 200 goals in a season if he'd played for the Hawks in the late 80s. Only a Hawks fan would argue for Dunstall. Fair enough, he's their man, but I rate Plugger ahead of Carey and behind only Ablett Sr as the best player I've seen. Unstoppable. And for those saying he couldn't work with others, I urge you to watch the 1989 State of Origin smashing of South Australia at the G. Lockett 5 goals, Dunstall 4, Brereton 3.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Lockett also turned a State of Origin game a few years earlier when thrown into the ruck.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Was it just my imagination, or did Dunstall make a come-back this weekend for the Hawks AFLW team?.....Perhaps I'm seeing things.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Plugger would have kicked 200 goals in a season if he'd played for the Hawks in the late 80s. Only a Hawks fan would argue for Dunstall. Fair enough, he's their man, but I rate Plugger ahead of Carey and behind only Ablett Sr as the best player I've seen. Unstoppable. And for those saying he couldn't work with others, I urge you to watch the 1989 State of Origin smashing of South Australia at the G. Lockett 5 goals, Dunstall 4, Brereton 3.

No offence to you mate but I hate this "Lockett would have kicked 200 at a team as good as Dunstall's", etc. I've read it so many times and it flies in the face of the facts.

In the 90's, their teams were about as good as each other. Dunstall's goal average went UP in the 90's when his team varied between average and crap. The reason being, it is easier to kick goals in an average team when you are the only target for every forward 50 entry as opposed to playing in a good side but sharing the entries with other gun forwards (Brereton, Buckenara, etc.). Once those other forwards left, Hawthorn got much worse but Dunstall kicked more goals. Same applies to Lockett, who basically got every ball (at St Kilda and Sydney) kicked in his direction.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Only a Hawks fan would argue for Dunstall.

Oh, and on this part...Wayne Carey, Glenn Archer, James Hird, Stephen Kernahan and Mike Sheehan are just a few of the football personalities that rate Dunstall higher than Lockett. None of whom are Hawks fans.

 

[richoatthedisco]

No offence to you mate but I hate this "Lockett would have kicked 200 at a team as good as Dunstall's", etc. I've read it so many times and it flies in the face of the facts.

In the 90's, their teams were about as good as each other. Dunstall's goal average went UP in the 90's when his team varied between average and crap. The reason being, it is easier to kick goals in an average team when you are the only target for every forward 50 entry as opposed to playing in a good side but sharing the entries with other gun forwards (Brereton, Buckenara, etc.). Once those other forwards left, Hawthorn got much worse but Dunstall kicked more goals. Same applies to Lockett, who basically got every ball (at St Kilda and Sydney) kicked in his direction.

Lockett played in some awful teams that barely got the ball in their forward line. Dunstall played in one of the best teams of all time.

Oh, and on this part...Wayne Carey, Glenn Archer, James Hird, Stephen Kernahan and Mike Sheehan are just a few of the football personalities that rate Dunstall higher than Lockett. None of whom are Hawks fans.

A. Links?
B. I don't care. You will find far more people who agree with me. Dunstall was a champion, Lockett was better.

 

[tony__montana]

Agree on the Ablett Senior & Plugger comments....Though you are clearly not old enough to have seen Matthews in his prime.....No player had a greater ability to lift another gear & turn a game their clubs way, when the chips were down & the game was on the line, than did Barney.

Lockett was a pure lead, mark, kick straight full-forward.....Clean as a whistle & with no complications.

Dunstall had a defensive side to his game & was far more team orientated.....He'd of given away well over a 100 goals throughout his career & would have finished with similar numbers to Lockett, had he been more selfish....Plugger was bigger & stronger & played in a crap side, for which he was most of the time, the only target up forward.

I was there when he kicked 17 and saw him pass it off several times when he couldve broken the record - even I wanted him to break it at that stage haha. Very selfless player.

On Matthews, youre right, too young to remember much of him, hell of a player from the little I saw, and respect the views of those who did see him and have him 1st, 2nd or 3rd best of all time.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Lockett had the better physical attributes, had teams built around him and was the better individual player.
Dunstall the better footballer, fitted into different styles of team and was a far better team player.

In another thread (including Ablett), I had Ablett for the crowd, Lockett for the match, Dunstall for the season.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Can still recall the day on the M.C.G where Lockett was nigh on unstoppable in tearing both Langford & Mew apart, in round 10 of 1988.....Something that rarely - if ever - happened during the mid-late 80's.....Think he kicked 9.7 that day & yet, his side still lost.....Reckon it was the same match in which Derm floored Frawley & copped 6 weeks for his troubles. He also kicked a lazy 6 that day, with Dunstall kicking 4, though it was Lockett who was the standout player on the ground.

There was one incident in particular that is still emblazoned on my mind, that took place at centre half forward for the Saints proper.....Mew was going backwards to meet the flight of the ball, with Lockett & Langford coming the other way.....Anyways, all 3 got to the drop of the ball simultaneously in mid-air with both Langford & Mew perfectly positioned to spoil the ball.....Once the dust settled, all you saw was both Langford & Mew in a heap on the ground, with Lockett standing there on his own, with ball well gripped betwixt both hands.....I was mightily impressed.....Took the other 2 boys a while to regain their feet & their composure after that.

Had Lockett kicked straighter that day, we'd have lost for sure.

 

[stuv 2 skunk]

Dunstall had better hands than Plugger.

No *ing way

 

[The King!]

I sat on the fence, Dunstall has the team success which he was a key part of, he was more disciplined.

Lockett was such a bohemeath and unstoppable at times

Both were legends

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Watched Tony destroy the Full back of the century. He was simply awesome to watch but I did appreciate Jason too.

Lockett for mine.

 

[Simon_Says]

Dunstall, Plugger, GazSnr, Hudson, Carey, Franklin.

There is actually nothing to seperate. I would flip a coin. Plugger best Goal Kicker OAT, Gaz Best player OAT.

If Dunstall had the most flags out of all then i would take that. Maybe He brings his team mates into the game, better than his opposition FF's.
(I'm not really in a posotion to comment without Bias, because i only really ever saw Carey and Bud play)

*Edit: forgot Leigh Matthews

 

[MinerBoy]

There really is absolutely nothing between these two absolute greats of the game. I would lean to Lockett just even though I'm a Hawks man and saw many of Dunstall's games - following him from end to end each quarter and noting his goals each game v those of Lockett.

Haven't read thread yet and assume there'll be some of the usual X over Y easily.... hopefully not. But it's that close that no one is significantly better than the other no matter which way you lean.

 

[MinerBoy]

No ruddy way

I think it is probably true. Lockett was a better pack/overhead mark (height/physique etc) but Dunstall's hands were like vices.

Bullet passes while on HARD leads and he would just one grab the hell out of them. Such a strong grip.

I used to watch training at Glenferrie when I could and recall often he'd have a trainer just smashing countless balls at him as hard as he could from 10-20m away tops and he'd just be grabbing them everywhere.

 

[stuv 2 skunk]

I think it is probably true. Lockett was a better pack/overhead mark (height/physique etc) but Dunstall's hands were like vices.

Bullet passes while on HARD leads and he would just one grab the hell out of them. Such a strong grip.

I used to watch training at Glenferrie when I could and recall often he'd have a trainer just smashing countless balls at him as hard as he could from 10-20m away tops and he'd just be grabbing them everywhere.

Thousand odd goals each they were both obviously great players of the game but as a kid I remember Dunstall taking so many on the chest while Plugger was taking them overhead

 

[MinerBoy]

Plugger was hardly Modra. He still got a vast majority of his goals from old fashioned leads and chest marks too. As was the style at the time.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I find it interesting to see what my first memory or impression is of each player. (Adding a few extras to the conversation):

Ablett - Pack already formed, Ablett way out of position and launches from too far away, but somehow lands on top of pack "Air Jordan". Set shot on ridiculous angle, Snaps around the corner over his head. (Modra x1000, with Dangerfield's strength, speed and crumbing plus a brutal physical approach no longer in the game).

Dunstall - Very late, hard lead to pocket, diving to his right to take an incredible "slips catch". Slow, measured approach gun-barrell straight kick. Played a team game, more about mental ability and control than physical attribute. (Hodge/Lake/Rance reading ball in flight, but also creating and controlling play)

Lockett - Pack formed, Lockett last to arrive cannons into the pack as the ball arrives which collapses underneath him. Keeping his feet gets ball, turns and snaps the goal whilst being (ineffectually) tackled. (Hawkins x100000, plus Martin-esque confidence to take on tackler and get the shot off)

Hudson (footage only, I'm not THAT old) - Standing still, opponent holding one arm tackling, whilst pack forms in front. Ball clears pack drops into Hudson's free arm. Awkward looking kick on goal that travels true. (Never seen anyone else like it to compare - just got 'lucky' 10 times a game)

Franklin - Running goals, kick from outside 55m, wrong pocket swinging back. (Like Swans Franklin, only quicker and more agile)

I guess that helps me distinguish better: Hudson was pure judgement, body positioning and reactionary play, Dunstall extraordinary hands and spatial management, creating the play, Lockett pure power and strength, Ablett sheer athleticism, Franklin Speed and distance.

Dunstall was the one who played as part of the "team", managing space and players around him, relying on "football smarts" - the other four all having incredible talents in one (or more) physical aspects making them "unstoppable" in the right circumstance.

 

[Gone Critical]

No offence to you mate but I hate this "Lockett would have kicked 200 at a team as good as Dunstall's", etc. I've read it so many times and it flies in the face of the facts.

In the 90's, their teams were about as good as each other. Dunstall's goal average went UP in the 90's when his team varied between average and crap. The reason being, it is easier to kick goals in an average team when you are the only target for every forward 50 entry as opposed to playing in a good side but sharing the entries with other gun forwards (Brereton, Buckenara, etc.). Once those other forwards left, Hawthorn got much worse but Dunstall kicked more goals. Same applies to Lockett, who basically got every ball (at St Kilda and Sydney) kicked in his direction.

I would flip this around to "Dunstall wouldn't have kicked goals at a similar rate to Lockett if he played in a similarly crap team". It's very wrong to suggest that there was any similarity in the teams these two played in. That's true when comparing Lockett to all of the greatest forwards of our game not just Dunstall. Dunstall is a giant of the game but Lockett is the only great forward to ever have played in predominantly crap sides.

You suggest above that when Hawthorn got worse Dunstall kicked more goals. This is clearly untrue. Dunstall played 14 seasons, 85-98. Hawks played finals in the first 10 seasons and won flags in the early 90's so were clearly better than average then. In the last 4 years of his career, when the Hawks finished 15th, 8th, 15th and 13th Dunstalls goals per game dropped off also. When Hawks got worse Dunstall stopped kicking as many goals.

Just compare some of the stats of Locketts 17 v Dunstalls 14 seasons

Finals teams Dunstall 11 Lockett 6
Top 4 Dunstall 7 Lockett 3
Flags Dunstall 4 Lockett 0
Spoons Dunstall 0 Lockett 5
10th or below on ladder Dunstall 3 Lockett 9


Locketts greatness is best illustrated by his great years. Once he got going at age 21 the next 10 seasons until he was 30 he averaged 5.3 goals or better per game every season except 1988 when he only played 8 games (4.4 goals). In those 10 seasons twice he had seasons where he averaged more that 7 goals a game. In his 9th season he played in a finals team for the first time and averaged 7.5 goals a game. Nobody has ever got near that, not even Pratt and Hudson when they kicked 150 goals in a dominant side.This is also well above Dunstalls best.

In 6 of those 10 seasons the Saints finished 10th or worse and only 3x did he play in finals. In 1989 he averaged 7.1 goals a game in a side that finished 12th. Bob Pratt averaged 7.1 in 1934 playing in a dominant side who played in the GF. He is the only other player I can find who ever average 7 goals a gam in a season. You do wonder what he would have if he had played his prime years in a dominant side like Dunstall did. This is no knock on Dunstall just illustrates the greatness of Lockett.

In the 3 seasons where Dunstall didnt play finals his goals per game average was 3.9, 2.6 and 4.2. Clearly worse than when Hawthorn was a force.

Think you need to rethink your interpretation in the post above.

History bears out your theory below is completely wrong. Always much easier to kick goals in successful sides.

The reason being, it is easier to kick goals in an average team when you are the only target for every forward 50 entry as opposed to playing in a good side but sharing the entries with other gun forwards (Brereton, Buckenara, etc.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

To borrow a line from Bruce, Plugger was a colossus, genuinely.

For mine the greatest ever player I've ever seen is Ablett Snr, but there was no more destructive force in football than plugger in full flight. Saw him kick 11-12 in a quarter and a half at the western oval once.

No disrespect to dunstall who I truly believe is criminally underrated as one of the all time greats, but I rate Plugger ahead of him

Agree. My rating as FF is (and I'm old enough to have seen them all) 1 Hudson 2 Plugger 3 Dunstall 4 Ablett. The greatest footballer: Ablett Snr.

Hudson wasn't the complete footballer. But if being FF was a science, he'd be Newton, Eintein, and Hawking, rolled into one. He was like Shane Warne in that often his opponents would claim they had him figured, and he's smash them, anyway.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Agree. My rating as FF is (and I'm old enough to have seen them all) 1 Hudson 2 Plugger 3 Dunstall 4 Ablett. The greatest footballer: Ablett Snr.

Hudson wasn't the complete footballer. But if being FF was a science, he'd be Newton, Eintein, and Hawking, rolled into one. He was like Shane Warne in that often his opponents would claim they had him figured, and he's smash them, anyway.

Hudson was a freak, who could read the trajectory & bounce of the ball better than anyone.....And how those flat mongrel-punt kicks of his, always managed to sail through the middle of the big sticks, is anyone's guess.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Hudson was a freak, who could read the trajectory & bounce of the ball better than anyone.....And how those flat mongrel-punt kicks of his, always managed to sail through the middle of the big sticks, is anyone's guess.

Never more than 4 or 5 steps. His techniqe was 90% run-up. I saw him play about 5 times, including his last game when he got 7 to half time (?). A good/ordinary footballer, yet virtually unstoppable at FF. Had a big backside.

 

[richoatthedisco]

I would flip this around to "Dunstall wouldn't have kicked goals at a similar rate to Lockett if he played in a similarly crap team". It's very wrong to suggest that there was any similarity in the teams these two played in. That's true when comparing Lockett to all of the greatest forwards of our game not just Dunstall. Dunstall is a giant of the game but Lockett is the only great forward to ever have played in predominantly crap sides.

You suggest above that when Hawthorn got worse Dunstall kicked more goals. This is clearly untrue. Dunstall played 14 seasons, 85-98. Hawks played finals in the first 10 seasons and won flags in the early 90's so were clearly better than average then. In the last 4 years of his career, when the Hawks finished 15th, 8th, 15th and 13th Dunstalls goals per game dropped off also. When Hawks got worse Dunstall stopped kicking as many goals.

Just compare some of the stats of Locketts 17 v Dunstalls 14 seasons

Finals teams Dunstall 11 Lockett 6
Top 4 Dunstall 7 Lockett 3
Flags Dunstall 4 Lockett 0
Spoons Dunstall 0 Lockett 5
10th or below on ladder Dunstall 3 Lockett 9


Locketts greatness is best illustrated by his great years. Once he got going at age 21 the next 10 seasons until he was 30 he averaged 5.3 goals or better per game every season except 1988 when he only played 8 games (4.4 goals). In those 10 seasons twice he had seasons where he averaged more that 7 goals a game. In his 9th season he played in a finals team for the first time and averaged 7.5 goals a game. Nobody has ever got near that, not even Pratt and Hudson when they kicked 150 goals in a dominant side.This is also well above Dunstalls best.

In 6 of those 10 seasons the Saints finished 10th or worse and only 3x did he play in finals. In 1989 he averaged 7.1 goals a game in a side that finished 12th. Bob Pratt averaged 7.1 in 1934 playing in a dominant side who played in the GF. He is the only other player I can find who ever average 7 goals a gam in a season. You do wonder what he would have if he had played his prime years in a dominant side like Dunstall did. This is no knock on Dunstall just illustrates the greatness of Lockett.

In the 3 seasons where Dunstall didnt play finals his goals per game average was 3.9, 2.6 and 4.2. Clearly worse than when Hawthorn was a force.

Think you need to rethink your interpretation in the post above.

History bears out your theory below is completely wrong. Always much easier to kick goals in successful sides.

The reason being, it is easier to kick goals in an average team when you are the only target for every forward 50 entry as opposed to playing in a good side but sharing the entries with other gun forwards (Brereton, Buckenara, etc.

Thanks for this, couldn't be bothered proving it myself. One note though: Ablett averaged 7.3 goals per game in 1993 (17 games, 124 goals). At 32 years of age, in a team that missed the finals. Astonishing.

 

[Benny78]

Pretty unfair to compare Dunstall to Plugger. A better comparison would've been Carey or Ablett.