Next Coach

[BlueE]

So why quote all their posts then unless you wanted to reiterate what you have already said.

We did see the original posts you know

We? Don't think many saw or reflected on the original posts from the bricks that were thrown. That poster may have gone overboard in replying but backed everything up. Don't be so surprised there are people here, members and fans in the stadium have different opinions to what your "we" have.

 

[Demons09]

We? Don't think many saw or reflected on the original posts from the bricks that were thrown. That poster may have gone overboard in replying but backed everything up. Don't be so surprised there are people here, members and fans in the stadium have different opinions to what your "we" have.

You mean the fans that hang on crumpet and Fanta pants every word.

 

[Reynolds Number]

We will see what's right in due course.

As long as we all want Freo to succeed.

 

[nurries]

You mean the fans that hang on crumpet and Fanta pants every word.

Maybe they are Hackers and Hardly

 

[blue shark]

We will see what's right in due course.

As long as we all want Freo to succeed.

The issue is that since 2016 there has been no proof that we are working on or creating a winning culture, style to
take the game on.
Ross has proven what he is capable of with a physically, mature squad, rebuilding is another matter, and questions will
be asked when you are paying top coin to someone who has never rebuilt a list.
If he stays things must change drastically in my opinion on and off the field, as a supporter that is all I want.
Our list is not bottom 4, and every year we are cruelled by injury something has to give.
As for the game plan, training, there is not much to get excited about, and if that also contributes to injury?
We don't even look close to improving our scoring involvements, patterns, structure.
I think we can rule out Bondy, Prior, and Webber straight up, been there long enough time for fresh ideas, blood.

 

[raffrox]

You mean the fans that hang on crumpet and Fanta pants every word.

I certainly don't rate those two at all and it's a cheap move to try and lump people that don't agree with you with those two. I guess we'll see which group of Freo fans are more on the mark as we go along won't we?

 

[Demons09]

I certainly don't rate those two at all and it's a cheap move to try and lump people that don't agree with you with those two. I guess we'll see which group of Freo fans are more on the mark as we go along won't we?

You may not but there's plenty of Freo fans that ring 6pr and hang onto every word of those two flogs.

And btw I think Lyons time is just about up, but I don't really see an alternative at this point.

 

[Reynolds Number]

The issue is that since 2016 there has been no proof that we are working on or creating a winning culture, style to
take the game on.
Ross has proven what he is capable of with a physically, mature squad, rebuilding is another matter, and questions will
be asked when you are paying top coin to someone who has never rebuilt a list.
If he stays things must change drastically in my opinion on and off the field, as a supporter that is all I want.
Our list is not bottom 4, and every year we are cruelled by injury something has to give.
As for the game plan, training, there is not much to get excited about, and if that also contributes to injury?
We don't even look close to improving our scoring involvements, patterns, structure.
I think we can rule out Bondy, Prior, and Webber straight up, been there long enough time for fresh ideas, blood.

I don't disagree. I think to blanket judge someone who is critical about keeping Lyon around as coach as an Eagles or Saints fan in disguise is childish.

When the side is not performing well you are always going to get fans who don't like the coach. It is what it is.

 

[Superkoops]

You may not but there's plenty of Freo fans that ring 6pr and hang onto every word of those two flogs.

And btw I think Lyons time is just about up, but I don't really see an alternative at this point.

I agree re: Lyon and we shouldn’t just pull the trigger until a better option presents. If that is the end of this season so be it, if next year then so be it. Very unlikely he sees out the full contract unless things drastically improve. The off-field stuff has placed added pressure on him and his family and he may wish to pull the plug himself.

If it is a new/untried coach (like a Longmuir or Caracella) I’m happy to be patient. We are definitely in full rebuild mode - maybe this full commitment has taken longer than it should and we could have also avoided getting this bad. But there are signs of improvement, since round 5 2016.

Re: Tossdorn & fanto I listen to way too much sports talkback and there are plenty of Freo Flogs ringing through that make me shake my head in disbelief. I liken some of them to trolls or stirrers on these boards. You just have to ignore.

 

[raffrox]

I agree re: Lyon and we shouldn’t just pull the trigger until a better option presents. If that is the end of this season so be it, if next year then so be it. Very unlikely he sees out the full contract unless things drastically improve. The off-field stuff has placed added pressure on him and his family and he may wish to pull the plug himself.

If it is a new/untried coach (like a Longmuir or Caracella) I’m happy to be patient. We are definitely in full rebuild mode - maybe this full commitment has taken longer than it should and we could have also avoided getting this bad. But there are signs of improvement, since round 5 2016.

Re: Tossdorn & fanto I listen to way too much sports talkback and there are plenty of Freo Flogs ringing through that make me shake my head in disbelief. I liken some of them to trolls or stirrers on these boards. You just have to ignore.

Footy is a passionate sport. People are just frustrated and understandably so.

 

[raffrox]

You may not but there's plenty of Freo fans that ring 6pr and hang onto every word of those two flogs.

And btw I think Lyons time is just about up, but I don't really see an alternative at this point.

Unless there's a homerun established coach available which is rare, there's never an alternative ready to go.

That doesn't justify sticking with Ross.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Here's what I understand.
Recent history (looking back to 2000) shows that to win a premiership, your team must have a solid defence (no team has won ranked outside 6th place). It also helps if you have a strong attack, but it isn't as vital (eg. Sydney won in 2005 ranked 2nd for defence, but 14th, 3rd worst in attack).

Premiership teams are generally older mature experienced players (Western Bulldogs 2016 are probably the exception).
Average age for Premiers since 2000 is 26years old, 127games, with 3 players under the age of 22.
Hawthorn's three premierships came for an average of 27years old, 148games and 1 player under the age of 22.
Last Sunday, Freo's average age was 23years old, 56games and 7 players under the age of 22.

Proper team rebuilds generally mean youth, which leads to a short term increase in your losses. Fremantle's history has shown that even during seasons of a strong defensive game plan, after many wins, when Fremantle have played their B side prior to finals, they get smashed. This is further evidence that a good game plan is not enough. You generally require the experienced players to make it work successfully.

In 2015, with Fremantle on top of the ladder, there was an obvious media witch hunt aimed at RTB's defensive game plan that had large stoppage numbers, low scoring games. The "Freo can't win a premiership without being able to score 100 points" was being thrown around everywhere. Hawthorn was the dominant team and looking to make it 3 premierships in a row. While RTB was being targeted for his reported ugly low scoring game plan, Hawthorn, using highly skilled players were able to win games using high uncontested possessions, low tackles and high scoring efficient forwards. On top of this, most people believed that GWS were going to be the juggernaut team of the future with a team list everyone was jealous of. Fremantle once again failed to win the big prize when they got beaten by Hawthorn in the Preliminary Final (with Fyfe on one leg). The pressure was mounting on RTB to change his game plan or team list to improve enough to be able to beat the likes of Hawthorn (& in the future GWS).

So, during the off-season, Freo brought in Hale and Guerra, both ex Hawthorn players, in an obvious move to try to become good enough to compete and beat Hawthorn.
But 2016 started off very poorly. Freo were all of a sudden getting smashed by teams scoring from Freo turnovers. There were many comments being thrown around about RTB having stepped back a little in the coaching during the off-season to allow the assistants more input/control/hands on.
I no longer saw a Fremantle side that showed a priority focus on defence.
After only having 100points scored against Freo 3 times in 24 games in 2015 (Hawks in Tassie, B-Side vs Port and a 13 Free Kick differential vs the Slime) and having really only lost McPharlin from the regular 2015 starting 22 (& injuries, eg. Fyfe), Freo found the opposition scoring over 100 points 3 times in the first 4 games of 2016. Something in the game plan had obviously changed in an attempt to become more like Hawthorn.
Sandilands was injured in Round 3 and Freo's season was obviously bleak. It appeared glaringly obvious that Freo didn't have the players or the depth on their list. Time for a rebuild. That was 2 years and 2 months ago. (NB: once again an example of Freo112 making false statements with his repeated 2.5year old rebuild myth, at most, it has been just two drafts and just over 2 years).

That's the recent history as I see it ... a very different story to what the RTB haters will likely tell you.

 

[raffrox]

Here's what I understand.
Recent history (looking back to 2000) shows that to win a premiership, your team must have a solid defence (no team has won ranked outside 6th place). It also helps if you have a strong attack, but it isn't as vital (eg. Sydney won in 2005 ranked 2nd for defence, but 14th, 3rd worst in attack).

Premiership teams are generally older mature experienced players (Western Bulldogs 2016 are probably the exception).
Average age for Premiers since 2000 is 26years old, 127games, with 3 players under the age of 22.
Hawthorn's three premierships came for an average of 27years old, 148games and 1 player under the age of 22.
Last Sunday, Freo's average age was 23years old, 56games and 7 players under the age of 22.

Proper team rebuilds generally mean youth, which leads to a short term increase in your losses. Fremantle's history has shown that even during seasons of a strong defensive game plan, after many wins, when Fremantle have played their B side prior to finals, they get smashed. This is further evidence that a good game plan is not enough. You generally require the experienced players to make it work successfully.

In 2015, with Fremantle on top of the ladder, there was an obvious media witch hunt aimed at RTB's defensive game plan that had large stoppage numbers, low scoring games. The "Freo can't win a premiership without being able to score 100 points" was being thrown around everywhere. Hawthorn was the dominant team and looking to make it 3 premierships in a row. While RTB was being targeted for his reported ugly low scoring game plan, Hawthorn, using highly skilled players were able to win games using high uncontested possessions, low tackles and high scoring efficient forwards. On top of this, most people believed that GWS were going to be the juggernaut team of the future with a team list everyone was jealous of. Fremantle once again failed to win the big prize when they got beaten by Hawthorn in the Preliminary Final (with Fyfe on one leg). The pressure was mounting on RTB to change his game plan or team list to improve enough to be able to beat the likes of Hawthorn (& in the future GWS).

So, during the off-season, Freo brought in Hale and Guerra, both ex Hawthorn players, in an obvious move to try to become good enough to compete and beat Hawthorn.
But 2016 started off very poorly. Freo were all of a sudden getting smashed by teams scoring from Freo turnovers. There were many comments being thrown around about RTB having stepped back a little in the coaching during the off-season to allow the assistants more input/control/hands on.
I no longer saw a Fremantle side that showed a priority focus on defence.
After only having 100points scored against Freo 3 times in 24 games in 2015 (Hawks in Tassie, B-Side vs Port and a 13 Free Kick differential vs the Slime) and having really only lost McPharlin from the regular 2015 starting 22 (& injuries, eg. Fyfe), Freo found the opposition scoring over 100 points 3 times in the first 4 games of 2016. Something in the game plan had obviously changed in an attempt to become more like Hawthorn.
Sandilands was injured in Round 3 and Freo's season was obviously bleak. It appeared glaringly obvious that Freo didn't have the players or the depth on their list. Time for a rebuild. That was 2 years and 2 months ago. (NB: once again an example of Freo112 making false statements with his repeated 2.5year old rebuild myth, at most, it has been just two drafts and just over 2 years).

That's the recent history as I see it ... a very different story to what the RTB haters will likely tell you.

You do understand that writing using more words to state your opinion still makes it......... your opinion.

You make it sound like you a) rebuild b) not rebuild.

Garbage.

You just don't throw the switch. You have to have a plan and stage any transition. Ross didn't. There was forewarning. For goodness sake annoying Saints fans have been telling us that Ross will do this to our team and that is what has happened. Exactly.

It sucks and it pisses me off.

Your post is also a complete cop out. So it was the "witch hunt" that forced Ross to try and adapt a Hawks like gameplan? Good grief. If thats the case we should have fired him on the spot. He should have his own game plan.

The argument that Ross tried to be more offensive but we just got killed on the turnover again is damning of Ross. It means he couldn't evolve and adapt.

We had some great years under Ross and I will be forever thankful for that but they are gone. We don't have mature bodies and he doesn't have a game plan that can work with our current list.

If "Ross haters" is the name for people who dare challenge our current direction can we have a name for the people who just continue to follow Ross blindly?

The Kool Aid Gang maybe.

 

[blue shark]

If you are a Freagle though, comparing the two teams, WC lost a coach in 2013, Simpson has done a fantastic job in
a very short time.
WC were around the same mark on the ladder in 13 as we are Today.
So something has to give, we have apparently the best facilities in the AFL, record membership, so we either follow
the Tigers, or we move the coach. I don't think we can do the minimum.
Getting more players on the park is a start.

 

[_007_]

You do understand that writing using more words to state your opinion still makes it......... your opinion.

You make it sound like you a) rebuild b) not rebuild.

Garbage.

You just don't throw the switch. You have to have a plan and stage any transition. Ross didn't. There was forewarning. For goodness sake annoying Saints fans have been telling us that Ross will do this to our team and that is what has happened. Exactly.

It sucks and it pisses me off.

Your post is also a complete cop out. So it was the "witch hunt" that forced Ross to try and adapt a Hawks like gameplan? Good grief. If thats the case we should have fired him on the spot. He should have his own game plan.

The argument that Ross tried to be more offensive but we just got killed on the turnover again is damning of Ross. It means he couldn't evolve and adapt.

We had some great years under Ross and I will be forever thankful for that but they are gone. We don't have mature bodies and he doesn't have a game plan that can work with our current list.

If "Ross haters" is the name for people who dare challenge our current direction can we have a name for the people who just continue to follow Ross blindly?

The Kool Aid Gang maybe.

I quite like the Church of Lyontology personally. Quite a few acolytes displaying their fervour of late.

 

[raffrox]

I quite like the Church of Lyontology personally. Quite a few acolytes displaying their fervour of late.

Yep. That's the winner. Hands down.

 

[Kram]

Lyontology Koolaiders v The Foaming Brick throwers.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

Lyontology Koolaiders v The Foaming Brick throwers.

Is there a third option? Perhaps the Rational Inquisitors?

 

[raffrox]

Is there a third option? Perhaps the Rational Inquisitors?

You do realise you're on Big Footy?

 

[bfff]

Is there a third option? Perhaps the Rational Inquisitors?

NO of course not that is ******* insane you mad campaigner

 

[wayToGo_]

We don't have mature bodies and he doesn't have a game plan that can work with our current list.

I think you'll find most supporters would agree with this. The question is who does have a game plan that works with a list like ours atm?

The teams playing a B22 24 years or younger this round are us, Gold Coast, Brisbane, and St Kilda. We are playing the most inexperienced side of those. Every other club is playing a B22 with an average 25 years+ and with a heap more experience. The other younger teams with a bye are Carlton and the Dogs who have been playing around 24.5+. Not exactly an inspiring list of teams is it? They all sit below us on the ladder.

Lyon is far from faultless. His team selections at times I've often found unimaginative and risk adverse, especially at the start of the past two seasons. I'd also like to see us more willing to pull the trigger earlier within games to make changes and be a bit more experimental as well with our structures and personnel positioning. But these are just my opinions and I have no idea if we'd be better or worse if we did. Could a new coach bring something new and exciting? Probably. Would our "rebuild" be any further along? I doubt it.

I think Lyon deserves to be held accountable for the things he is responsible for - game plans, structures, player development. But I think too often supporters don't put our situation in the full context. Our list management has clearly been poor in the past and we're feeling the effects now. Our injury list is perpetually massive - missing almost half our B22 atm aren't we? And retrospectively we should have foreseen this and pumped experience into some of our younger players earlier on (eg in 2015 and risked not finishing minor premiers).

Our club has put us in a position where we need to play 13+ <50 game players, and Ross does deserve some criticism for that. But now that we are here isn't the only way out of it making good decisions through the rebuild and push through some tough years whilst our youngsters develop and gain experience whilst retaining our key experienced leaders? I don't enjoy watching us play much at all either currently but I also accept it's inevitable given the state of our list.

If I can't be optimistic about the future then I don't see the point of staying a supporter. I'll back in our players because all AFL players are good footballers and I've seen plenty of 'spuds' turn into great role players when all the pieces come together. I'll back in our recruitment team because despite making mistakes in the past I think lately they've done well. And whilst he's our coach I'll give Ross the benefit of the doubt most of the time as I truly don't believe any other AFL coach would have us playing much better at this point in time. But I'm also not averse to investigating and discussing the benefits an alternative senior coach (or assistants) might make in the future once our current list matures.

We shouldn't need to all agree to have civil debate without resorting to name calling and labelling. Although the West Coast lovers in here lately can truly * off - we don't need continuous reminders they are doing well - we have every mainstream media source in WA doing that for us.

 

[raffrox]

I think you'll find most supporters would agree with this. The question is who does have a game plan that works with a list like ours atm?

The teams playing a B22 24 years or younger this round are us, Gold Coast, Brisbane, and St Kilda. We are playing the most inexperienced side of those. Every other club is playing a B22 with an average 25 years+ and with a heap more experience. The other younger teams with a bye are Carlton and the Dogs who have been playing around 24.5+. Not exactly an inspiring list of teams is it? They all sit below us on the ladder.

Lyon is far from faultless. His team selections at times I've often found unimaginative and risk adverse, especially at the start of the past two seasons. I'd also like to see us more willing to pull the trigger earlier within games to make changes and be a bit more experimental as well with our structures and personnel positioning. But these are just my opinions and I have no idea if we'd be better or worse if we did. Could a new coach bring something new and exciting? Probably. Would our "rebuild" be any further along? I doubt it.

I think Lyon deserves to be held accountable for the things he is responsible for - game plans, structures, player development. But I think too often supporters don't put our situation in the full context. Our list management has clearly been poor in the past and we're feeling the effects now. Our injury list is perpetually massive - missing almost half our B22 atm aren't we? And retrospectively we should have foreseen this and pumped experience into some of our younger players earlier on (eg in 2015 and risked not finishing minor premiers).

Our club has put us in a position where we need to play 13+ <50 game players, and Ross does deserve some criticism for that. But now that we are here isn't the only way out of it making good decisions through the rebuild and push through some tough years whilst our youngsters develop and gain experience whilst retaining our key experienced leaders? I don't enjoy watching us play much at all either currently but I also accept it's inevitable given the state of our list.

If I can't be optimistic about the future then I don't see the point of staying a supporter. I'll back in our players because all AFL players are good footballers and I've seen plenty of 'spuds' turn into great role players when all the pieces come together. I'll back in our recruitment team because despite making mistakes in the past I think lately they've done well. And whilst he's our coach I'll give Ross the benefit of the doubt most of the time as I truly don't believe any other AFL coach would have us playing much better at this point in time. But I'm also not adverse to investigating and discussing the benefits an alternative senior coach (or assistants) might make in the future once our current list matures.

We shouldn't need to all agree to have civil debate without resorting to name calling and labelling. Although the West Coast lovers in here lately can truly **** off - we don't need continuous reminders they are doing well - we have every mainstream media source in WA doing that for us.

The team doesn't get a get out of jail card for piss poor planning which sees us having such a young team and Ross not having a plan B.

It's as simple as that for me.

I disagree that no one else has a game plan that would fit a younger team better. Fagan seems to have an air of optimism around the Lions. I don't care about win-loss but I do care about young players feeling stifled and ground down by Ross' plan A.

 

[Kram]

Christ, they are young but Fagan's Lions play horrible footy.

 

[wayToGo_]

Fagan seems to have an air of optimism around the Lions.

You don't think that might be the new shiny coach effect? I remember the same with Bolton in his early days at Carlton, and years later he's still trying to claim the "we're only young" - his shine has almost worn off completely finally. In my experience you can work some PR magic to distract but until you start actually performing it's all just smoke and mirrors. Melbourne showed glimpses and hope like Brisbane, then seemed in a perpetual rebuild and people had given up on them as recently as the early rounds of this season... now they're flying. We've endured tougher times, I'm still optimistic we can do a Melbourne but more quickly, and not end up a St Kilda.

 

[raffrox]

Christ, they are young but Fagan's Lions play horrible footy.

I'd take their best effort and style of footy away from home compared to our heartless play away from home.

Go compare some of the teams away games.