The peculiar case of anthony stevens seat in the afl hall of fame

[iameviljez]

This is so far from true.

Ken Farmer with 1417 goals over 224 matches. (...)

Its the Australian Football Hall of Fame, not the AFL Hall of Fame. And its Legends of that Hall of Fame.

Yes, but that's a SANFL vs VFL issue, rather than a how-many-per-year issue, to be fair. I agree that pre-1970s SANFL and WAFL doesn't get the recognition it deserves

 

[iameviljez]

How certain are you that he told her she was taking coke when it was heroin? Or did her family just say, afterwards, that 'she would never have knowingly taken heroin'. She, sadly, obviously can't confirm what happened, and I doubt Ablett would admit that. If that was true, I would have thought a murder or manslaughter charge would have followed.

I'm very sure.

"Basically she caught me with it," says the former football champion. "She asked what it was. I didn't really want her knowing that it was what it was.
"And I told her it was cocaine. And she wanted some."

Revealed: what took place in the hotel room

www.theage.com.au

 

[iameviljez]

Yeah but its the sanfl. Hodges was a star in the sanfl but a complete dud when he played for the crows. I dont think sanfl and wafl players should be declared legends if they at the very least didnt prove there greatness in state of origin carnivals. Hall of fame fine but not legends. To be legends you had to proove yourself against the best.

I think that your point is pretty valid up from the 70s when the VFL became the pre-eminent competition in Australia. Up until then, though, the competitions were pretty split and player movement didn't really happen.

When Scott Hodges was playing in the SANFL, the best SA players were well and truly entrenched in the VFL/AFL and it was clear there was a gulf between the two competitions.

He wasn't a dud, either - he was just stuck behind Tony Modra, with a bit of Billy Brownless syndrome. He did have a bag of 11 goals (against eventual Grand Finalists Geelong), and several more of 6, 7, and 8.

 

[RichLeMonde]

I'm very sure.

"Basically she caught me with it," says the former football champion. "She asked what it was. I didn't really want her knowing that it was what it was.
"And I told her it was cocaine. And she wanted some."

Revealed: what took place in the hotel room

www.theage.com.au

Cheers for that info- to me that makes what he did much, much worse. Should have been a criminal conviction

 

[Belnakor]

Carey's behaviour was also reported in reputable media outlets and tested in the courts.

the only thing in the courts was the assault for the glassing which was an isolated incident. Not sure where people are getting that Carey has bashed multiple women?

 

[Feerits Elf]

the only thing in the courts was the assault for the glassing which was an isolated incident. Not sure where people are getting that Carey has bashed multiple women?

Well he kicked a copper in the face while she was attempting to speak to him in relation to the same incident.

Two counts as "multiple", right?

 

[Seeds]

I think that your point is pretty valid up from the 70s when the VFL became the pre-eminent competition in Australia. Up until then, though, the competitions were pretty split and player movement didn't really happen.

When Scott Hodges was playing in the SANFL, the best SA players were well and truly entrenched in the VFL/AFL and it was clear there was a gulf between the two competitions.

He wasn't a dud, either - he was just stuck behind Tony Modra, with a bit of Billy Brownless syndrome. He did have a bag of 11 goals (against eventual Grand Finalists Geelong), and several more of 6, 7, and 8.

They werent evenly split. Players may not of travelled but victoria had 3 times the population of the other states. Three times the talent pool.

 

[PhatBoy]

They werent evenly split. Players may not of travelled but victoria had 3 times the population of the other states. Three times the talent pool.

If that is the case a domestic god of West Indian cricket can never be rated alongside one from India, nor can a NZ rugby union player have an equal shot at making the rugby hall of fame

 

[Walshawk]

This is so far from true.

Ken Farmer with 1417 goals over 224 matches. Thats 6.2 goals per game. Kicked over 100 goals in 11 consecutive seasons. And the SANFL had less games per season than the AFL.
In toal comparisons, Tony Lockett has just 1360 @ 4 goals per game. John Coleman went along at 5 goals per game over his career that last just 98 games.

And in a lazy 81 goals from 17 State matches as well. Both Ablett and Lockett kicked less than 4per game in State of Origin.

Jack Oatey, Jack Cahill and Fos Williams all have coaching records that make the latest Legend inductee look a little embarassing.

And there's arguably the greatest South Australian player Russell Ebert.

And I'm sure West Australians can probably add in a few more Legends easily deserving of induction that category.

Its the Australian Football Hall of Fame, not the AFL Hall of Fame. And its Legends of that Hall of Fame.

I am not here to argue the merits of players. My point is that very few players deserve to be legends. Don’t think any coaches should be legends. There are already too many legends.
Rugby League has it right. There are 13 Immortals (over 113 years). AF legends should just be the best one or two layers from each decade. There are 27 Legends already all post 1908. If you add in my list plus yours, that makes 36. Way, way too many.

 

[Foucault1989]

Tbh Kouta's aura was dismantled after he started trying to sell sub-optimal souvlaki. No HoF for that effort, that's for sure.

Junk souvlakis. Terrible.

 

[Seeds]

If that is the case a domestic god of West Indian cricket can never be rated alongside one from India, nor can a NZ rugby union player have an equal shot at making the rugby hall of fame

If South australians were way more fantical about football then victorians you might have a point. Afl era has proven that theory to be incorrect. The proportion of victorians playing afl vs south australians and western australians is usually fairly consistent with overall population differences.

 

[iameviljez]

They werent evenly split. Players may not of travelled but victoria had 3 times the population of the other states. Three times the talent pool.

You are correct that they weren't "evenly" split, but they were split... and when star players started to come over from the SANFL and WAFL, they were also stars in the VFL - suggesting that their achievements were hall-of-fame worthy.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Tbh Kouta's aura was dismantled after he started trying to sell sub-optimal souvlaki. No HoF for that effort, that's for sure.

I’d say that was the lesser of his missteps...

 

[Belnakor]

I am not here to argue the merits of players. My point is that very few players deserve to be legends. Don’t think any coaches should be legends. There are already too many legends.
Rugby League has it right. There are 13 Immortals (over 113 years). AF legends should just be the best one or two layers from each decade. There are 27 Legends already all post 1908. If you add in my list plus yours, that makes 36. Way, way too many.

we will end up having to make a category above Legend, as they have already let in some players who are probably locks for the hall of fame but not legends. Ted Whitten, Baldock, Cazaly, Dyer, Royce Hart, Hutchison, Kennedy Snr, Kevin Murray, Bob Pratt all guys are pretty debatable but i guess if you are going on 10% of the HOF are legends, you end up with players who were absolutely elite but not guys people still talk about 50 years later.

 

[iameviljez]

I am not here to argue the merits of players. My point is that very few players deserve to be legends. Don’t think any coaches should be legends. There are already too many legends.
Rugby League has it right. There are 13 Immortals (over 113 years). AF legends should just be the best one or two layers from each decade. There are 27 Legends already all post 1908. If you add in my list plus yours, that makes 36. Way, way too many.

The other point I would make is that there is a huge amount of recency bias (for obvious reasons). If you look at the AFL Team of the Century, there's a huge bias toward those years from the late 60s through to the early 90s.

 

[Walshawk]

If that is the case a domestic god of West Indian cricket can never be rated alongside one from India, nor can a NZ rugby union player have an equal shot at making the rugby hall of fame

If they are playing in the same competition - i.e. test cricket or international rugby, it is easy to compare. That is the whole point of the argument. How does Ken Farmer’s 6.2 goals per game compare to Hudson’s 5.7 in a stronger comp?

 

[Captain_Bender]

This is so far from true.

Ken Farmer with 1417 goals over 224 matches. Thats 6.2 goals per game. Kicked over 100 goals in 11 consecutive seasons. And the SANFL had less games per season than the AFL.
In toal comparisons, Tony Lockett has just 1360 @ 4 goals per game. John Coleman went along at 5 goals per game over his career that last just 98 games.

And in a lazy 81 goals from 17 State matches as well. Both Ablett and Lockett kicked less than 4per game in State of Origin.

Jack Oatey, Jack Cahill and Fos Williams all have coaching records that make the latest Legend inductee look a little embarassing.

And there's arguably the greatest South Australian player Russell Ebert.

And I'm sure West Australians can probably add in a few more Legends easily deserving of induction that category.

Its the Australian Football Hall of Fame, not the AFL Hall of Fame. And its Legends of that Hall of Fame.

How did the Jack Oatey coached Sturt sides go against Victorian sides in the Championship of Australia in the 60s and 70s, flogged each time, the SANFL was a tier behind the VFL

 

[PhatBoy]

If they are playing in the same competition - i.e. test cricket or international rugby, it is easy to compare. That is the whole point of the argument. How does Ken Farmer’s 6.2 goals per game compare to Hudson’s 5.7 in a stronger comp?

In 17 ‘tests’ against the other states he kicked nearly 5 a game.

 

[iameviljez]

Rugby League has it right. There are 13 Immortals (over 113 years). AF legends should just be the best one or two layers from each decade. There are 27 Legends already all post 1908. If you add in my list plus yours, that makes 36. Way, way too many.

I like this, a lot.

2010s: Franklin
2000s: Judd, Ablett
1990s: Carey, Lockett
1980s: Ablett
1970s: Lethal
1960s: Whitten, Skilton
1950s: Coleman
1940s: ?
1930s: Pratt, Bunton
1920s: Coventry
etc

 

[RonnieRaven]

Gold class thread here.
Highlights so far:
comparing ken farmer with Scott Hodges.
Excusing Ablett because there’s worst out there (with that logic as long as you don’t gas chamber thousands of people because of how they were born your ok)

 

[DEVO]

Anthony Stevens wasn't the superstar of the NMFC club that made 7 successive Preliminary Finals, but he was the backbone Denis Pagan built his midfield around, and he was the only midfielder (that I can remember) who played through that entire period. Those who played with him or against him would have a greater understanding of his value than those posting here. If he was voted in by his peers then he deserves to in.

 

[Seeds]

Anthony Stevens wasn't the superstar of the NMFC club that made 7 successive Preliminary Finals, but he was the backbone Denis Pagan built his midfield around, and he was the only midfielder (that I can remember) who played through that entire period. Those who played with him or against him would have a greater understanding of his value than those posting here. If he was voted in by his peers then he deserves to in.

Hall of famers arent voted in by peers.

 

[Seeds]

I like this, a lot.

2010s: Franklin
2000s: Judd, Ablett
1990s: Carey, Lockett
1980s: Ablett
1970s: Lethal
1960s: Whitten, Skilton
1950s: Coleman
1940s: ?
1930s: Pratt, Bunton
1920s: Coventry
etc

Williams is more deserving then Judd.

Where is Farmer? Royce Hart, Barrassi?

 

[iameviljez]

Where is Farmer? Royce Hart, Barrassi?

One or two per decade. So, they are behind Whitten and Coleman.

 

[Redline]

we will end up having to make a category above Legend, as they have already let in some players who are probably locks for the hall of fame but not legends. Ted Whitten, Baldock, Cazaly, Dyer, Royce Hart, Hutchison, Kennedy Snr, Kevin Murray, Bob Pratt all guys are pretty debatable but i guess if you are going on 10% of the HOF are legends, you end up with players who were absolutely elite but not guys people still talk about 50 years later.

I agree, I think we will see an additional category. You need a category that really only has maybe 10 players at the top.

I think the whole thing has been a bit diluted in recent years and will only get worse. Even recently Lenny Hayes into Hall of Fame is a bit of a game changer for that category. Great player but really more a St Kilda great than a great of the game. I have no problem with him getting it but most clubs could put forward a heap of players of equal worth to Hayes. I'd have Stevens in that category.