Toast Australian Rules Hall of Fame Night 2023

[GWT6]

stay in your VFL lane

Nick Saunter in the VFA/VFL

9 times leading goal kicker
873 Goals
9 times team of the year
5 time premiership player
Sandringham Captain
Sixth most games in VFA/VFL history
3 games at the elite level

vs

Michael Aish in the SANFL

2 times premiership player
1 times league B&F
4 times club B&F
15 State games
0 games at the elite level

If one of these players is worthy of Hall of Fame, the other surely is.

 

[cleanhands]

Nick Saunter in the VFA/VFL

9 times leading goal kicker
873 Goals
9 times team of the year
5 time premiership player
Sandringham Captain
Sixth most games in VFA/VFL history
3 games at the elite level

vs

Michael Aish in the SANFL

2 times premiership player
1 times league B&F
4 times club B&F
15 State games
0 games at the elite level

If one of these players is worthy of Hall of Fame, the other surely is.

0 Elite level ( state games)

 

[beenreal]

Nick Saunter in the VFA/VFL

9 times leading goal kicker
873 Goals
9 times team of the year
5 time premiership player
Sandringham Captain
Sixth most games in VFA/VFL history
3 games at the elite level

vs

Michael Aish in the SANFL

2 times premiership player
1 times league B&F
4 times club B&F
15 State games
0 games at the elite level

If one of these players is worthy of Hall of Fame, the other surely is.

Such unadulterated codswallop. Let's look at the 50s, 60s, 70s, and possibly early 80s when football wasn't full-time and most players had jobs. So what you're writing, is a player who didn't drag his family halfway across the country, simply to stoke his own ego by participating in another state-league competition, doesn't derve recognition in the (AFL administered) AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL Hall of Fame?

Simply the fact that Mark William's Father, Fos isn't Legend Status is an absolute farce;
Fos Williams' Football Record:

• Games Played: 205
• Premierships Won as Player:7
• Games Coached: 574
• Premierships Won as Coach: 9
• State Games Played: 34
• State Games Coached: 45

Further fact; You're a know-nothing nuffie.

 

[Back One Out]

Bickley was a champion but if you have him in, surely Worsfold gets in too?

Bickley was not a champion.

He was a hard-working midfielder who was the skipper of Adelaide's B2B premierships. He was lucky to be in the right place and right time after Malcolm Blight was appointed coach and gave McDermott & McGuinness the tap on the shoulder and made him the captain.

He never won Crows' best and fairest. I doubt he ever finished in the top 3 of that award. Maybe once.

Not only was he never All Australian, but he was never even in the AA conversation.

In his 272 games, he polled just 32 Brownlow votes. That's as a midfielder / half back flanker. Positions which umps heavily favour in their voting. His best season tally was 5 votes in 1992.

The Crows best players from 1997-1998 were: McLeod, Ricciuto, Jarman, Rehn, Hart and Smart.
Bickley was a few rungs below those guys

I don't mean to disrespect the guy - he was obviously a great clubman who extracted every inch from his ability. That's admirable. He had a great career. But not a Hall of Fame career, in my opinion. (Neither did Johnny Worsfold.)

 

[GWT6]

Such unadulterated codswallop. Let's look at the 50s, 60s, 70s, and possibly early 80s when football wasn't full-time and most players had jobs. So what you're writing, is a player who didn't drag his family halfway across the country, simply to stoke his own ego by participating in another state-league competition, doesn't derve recognition in the (AFL administered) AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL Hall of Fame?

Simply the fact that Mark William's Father, Fos isn't Legend Status is an absolute farce;
Fos Williams' Football Record:

• Games Played: 205
• Premierships Won as Player:7
• Games Coached: 574
• Premierships Won as Coach: 9
• State Games Played: 34
• State Games Coached: 45

Further fact; You're a know-nothing nuffie.

People don't get awarded medals for not dragging their family across the county, no idea why you think that is relevant.

Hall of Fame should be for players and coaches who competed at the top level, not for players and coaches who didn't regardless of what their reason was. Simple fact - Aish and Fos Williams played and coached in a second-third tier league, putting them in the AFL Hall of fame is a joke, and just pandering to South Australian sooks.

 

[GWT6]

0 Elite level ( state games)

People living in a back-water lived for State Games, everyone else thought it was a novelty.

As I said - Zero games at the elite level.

 

[Macca180]

That's complete rubbish - The SANFL was no way near the standard of the VFL/AFL when he played.
The VFA was on par with the level he was playing. He won his last best and fairest when the Crows were in the AFL.

lol.. ok. Ask the players who come over from the SANFL to the VFL in the 70s/80s how much difference the standard was.

Carmen, Kernahan, Jarman, Bradley, Platten etc etc

 

[cleanhands]

People living in a back-water lived for State Games, everyone else thought it was a novelty.

As I said - Zero games at the elite level.

ha ha you my friend are beyond help, you should be left to your self fondling

 

[GWT6]

lol.. ok. Ask the players who come over from the SANFL to the VFL in the 70s/80s how much difference the standard was.

Carmen, Kernahan, Jarman, Bradley, Platten etc etc

Maybe I'll ask all of the elite players who headed from Victoria and Western Australia to play in the SANFL to test themselves........ oh, that's right - they didn't because it was a second or third tier league.

 

[My Tilly]

But not a Hall of Fame career, in my opinion. (Neither did Johnny Worsfold.)

I don't think Bickley was a Hall of Famer either. I do believe he was a champion footballer who always held in his own throughout his career.
Not blessed with any endearing qualities (like Worsfold) but they played the game hard and they never gave an inch.
Gavin Brown you could throw into the same category as well.

Personally, I've never once looked at Brownlow medal votes as a means to judge a players career.
In 1996, Wayne Carey averaged 20 disposals, 8 marks, 3.3 goals per game. He single-handedly had a say in a handful of games that year, including finals, and only received 15 votes from the umpires! It's always been a joke of an award.

 

[Macca180]

Maybe I'll ask all of the elite players who headed from Victoria and Western Australia to play in the SANFL to test themselves........ oh, that's right - they didn't because it was a second or third tier league.

I don't think the difference between VFL and SANFL (in the 80s) is as big as you think. That's all.

 

[GWT6]

I don't think the difference between VFL and SANFL (in the 80s) is as big as you think. That's all.

SA state of origin teams were full of South Australians playing in the VFL - how many Vic state of origin teams contained any SANFL or WAFL players? None.

The re-writing of history to pander to South Australian's has really gotten beyond a joke.
The VFL was head and shoulders above the other leagues. There were probably a few top players in other leagues that for various reasons never went and tested themselves against the best, to pretend their achievements are the equivalent of players who played at the top level is just absurd.

 

[cleanhands]

SA state of origin teams were full of South Australians playing in the VFL - how many Vic state of origin teams contained any SANFL or WAFL players? None.

The re-writing of history to pander to South Australian's has really gotten beyond a joke.
The VFL was head and shoulders above the other leagues. There were probably a few top players in other leagues that for various reasons never went and tested themselves against the best, to pretend their achievements are the equivalent of players who played at the top level is just absurd.

How many vic state of origin teams contained any SANFL or WAFL players… do you want to change that?

 

[Hawks_4478]

Bickley was not a champion.

He was a hard-working midfielder who was the skipper of Adelaide's B2B premierships. He was lucky to be in the right place and right time after Malcolm Blight was appointed coach and gave McDermott & McGuinness the tap on the shoulder and made him the captain.

He never won Crows' best and fairest. I doubt he ever finished in the top 3 of that award. Maybe once.

Not only was he never All Australian, but he was never even in the AA conversation.

In his 272 games, he polled just 32 Brownlow votes. That's as a midfielder / half back flanker. Positions which umps heavily favour in their voting. His best season tally was 5 votes in 1992.

The Crows best players from 1997-1998 were: McLeod, Ricciuto, Jarman, Rehn, Hart and Smart.
Bickley was a few rungs below those guys

I don't mean to disrespect the guy - he was obviously a great clubman who extracted every inch from his ability. That's admirable. He had a great career. But not a Hall of Fame career, in my opinion. (Neither did Johnny Worsfold.)

Worsfold will be in due to playing + coaching career combined

 

[GWT6]

How many vic state of origin teams contained any SANFL or WAFL players… do you want to change that?

So how many in the 70's and 80's?

 

[cleanhands]

I h

So how many in the 70's and 80's?

I have tried having theses discussions with VFL blind people before and it’s just not worth it, I prefer to let them live in their own bubble, so enjoy

 

[Back One Out]

Worsfold will be in due to playing + coaching career combined

I really hate the way the Hall of Fame selection committee has conflated the playing & coaching careers of certain individuals over the past decade.

They always separated those who were inducted to the HOF as either players or coaches. Same with those who were elevated to 'Legend'. But when Kevin Sheedy was elevated to legend, things became blurred because they also mention his playing record alongside his coaching achievements. Except he was never inducted to the HOF as a player.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HOF as a legend, but it should be made clear he is there as a coach and not as a player.

When you look through the list of "legends", Sheedy is in there alongside Ted Whitten, Alex Jesaulenko, Darrel Baldock, Kevin Bartlett with all of their records & achievements listed as both players and coaches. It's misleading for younger people who are new to the game. Those other legends were superstar players and mediocre coaches.

Sheedy was a decent player, better than average, but no Hall of Famer. He was a superstar coach.

Ron Barassi, Malcolm Blight and Leigh Matthews were legendary players and legendary coaches. I think that's an important distinction to make. The hall of fame should give them credit for being legends as player & coach instead of lumping all the legends in together and blurring things. Mention Jezza's '79 flag as captain-coach, but don't mention his stint at St Kilda or his 2nd stint as Carlton coach. No reason either to mention the coaching of Doc Baldock, E.J. or KB. The less said about that, the better.


Mark Williams was inducted to the HOF the other night - I love Choco - it was fantastic to see him receive his AFL "lifetime achievement" award. But there is no way he gets into the HOF purely as a player, nor purely for his coaching. He was a good player, but he was no Hall of Famer. That's a complete crock. I can think of dozens of better players from the 80's and 90's who are not yet in the HOF (and may never get in.)

Likewise, Choco was a really good coach who landed Port's first and only AFL flag, but he wasn't a Hall of Fame coach like Sheedy, Malthouse, Jeans, Parkin, Barassi, Smith, McHale or even his dad, Fos Williams

The HOF committeee should have a separate "lifetime achievement" category for guys like Choco Williams and John Worsfold, who left their mark on AFL footy by playing 200 games and then coaching for 10 years and winning a flag.

edit: You could add Mark Thompson to this list as well. Bomber was a good player like Sheedy, Parkin, Williams, and Worsfold, but not quite a HOF'er. Great coach too, but probably not quite a HOF'er. Fine by me if he gets in under "lifetime achievement" category. Although, come to think of it, he is probably on the outer like Benny Cousins for "bringing the game into disrepute" with his drug habit and his association with bikie gangs and PED's

 

[GWT6]

I h

I have tried having theses discussions with VFL blind people before and it’s just not worth it, I prefer to let them live in their own bubble, so enjoy

So you've got nothing, ok, now let the grown ups continue the discussion. I hate school holidays on here.

 

[Back One Out]

I don't think Bickley was a Hall of Famer either. I do believe he was a champion footballer who always held in his own throughout his career. Not blessed with any endearing qualities (like Worsfold) but they played the game hard and they never gave an inch.
Gavin Brown you could throw into the same category as well.

Gavin Brown won 3 Copeland Trophies, an EJ Whitten Medal, and he was a 2-time All Australian, in addition to captaining the Pies and playing in the '90 premiership. He was a better footballer than Bickley and Worsfold. A genuine hard nut, insanely brave, but he was also more versatile and classier than those two.

But I wouldn't really classify him as a champion either. Borderline.

Personally, I've never once looked at Brownlow medal votes as a means to judge a players career.
In 1996, Wayne Carey averaged 20 disposals, 8 marks, 3.3 goals per game. He single-handedly had a say in a handful of games that year, including finals, and only received 15 votes from the umpires! It's always been a joke of an award.

Come on man. I wasn't using Brownlow Medal votes to judge Bickley's career. I watched his career unfold. I used my left and right eyeball to judge him as a footballer. But I mentioned a whole bunch of things - his lack of individual awards, as well his paltry Brownlow votes, to further illustrate why he was no champion.

If he played in defence or in the forward line for his entire career, then I wouldn't have mentioned his lack of Brownlow votes. But he was a midfielder and an occasional half back flanker. And he never polled more than 5 votes in a season.

Go ahead... Name me one other champion who played in the midfield and never polled more than 5 Brownlow votes.

You won't be able to.

 

[My Tilly]

Gavin Brown won 3 Copeland Trophies, an EJ Whitten Medal, and he was a 2-time All Australian, in addition to captaining the Pies and playing in the '90 premiership. He was a better footballer than Bickley and Worsfold. A genuine hard nut, but he was also more versatile and classier than those two.

But I wouldn't really classify him as a champion either. Borderline.


Come on man. I wasn't using Brownlow Medal votes to judge Bickley's career. I watched his career unfold. I used my left and right eyeball to judge him as a footballer. But I mentioned a whole bunch of things - his lack off individual awards as well his paltry Brownlow votes to further illustrate why he was no champion.

If he played in defence or in the forward line for his entire career, then I wouldn't have mentioned his lack of Brownlow votes. But he was a midfielder and an occasional half back flanker. And he never polled more than 5 votes in a season.

Go ahead... Name me one other champion who played in the midfield and never polled more than 5 Brownlow votes.

Each to their own.
I regard most of the players from that Adelaide team as champions.
You had the superstars Ricciuto, McLeod and Modra and then a whole batch of South Australia's finest.

Again, the Brownlow medal is a jokers award.
I seen so many players dominate a game and win and only receive 1 vote (sometimes none). If a player had a penchant for back chatting, the umps overlooked them.

 

[Back One Out]

Each to their own.
I regard most of the players from that Adelaide team as champions.
You had the superstars Ricciuto, McLeod and Modra and then a whole batch of South Australia's finest.

The 1997-98 Crows were not a super-dominant team like Geelong 2007-2009 or Hawthorn 2013-15
Finished 4th and 5th... 13 wins, 9 losses in both years... some gritty come-from-behind finals performances.

I wouldn't say "most of their players" were champions, unless you mean it like Americans do: they won a "championship" therefore each player can regard himself as a "champion".

If we are talking about the Australian football definition of 'champion', then I would classify McLeod, Ricciuto, Jarman, Rehn and Hart as the champions of that team. Tony Modra, borderline... Nigel Smart, a versatile gun, but not quite champion.

Simon Goodwin, a young gun in those premiership teams who developed into a champion later on. Tyson Edwards, also very young in 97-98, but eventually developed into a very good AFL player. An underrated star, but not quite a champion.

Mark Bickley: good player... Kane Johnson: good player... Rod Jameson: good player... Peter Vardy: pretty good player.

Most of the other guys were just average AFL players who played their role really well under Blighty in those premiership seasons, but never really kicked on in their footy careers. (Robran, Caven, Bond, Koster, Connell, Eccles, Thiesson, Rintoul, James, Ellen, Sampson, Pittman)

Again, the Brownlow medal is a jokers award. I seen so many players dominate a game and win and only receive 1 vote (sometimes none). If you had a penchant for back chatting, the umps overlooked them.

The challenge remains open to name another champion midfielder who never polled more than 5 Brownlow votes in a season.

Anyone?

 

[My Tilly]

Ok.
I didn't need a thesis on what you personally classify border-line, champion, superstar footballers.

You keep falling back on those brownlow votes of yours

 

[Macca19]

People don't get awarded medals for not dragging their family across the county, no idea why you think that is relevant.

Hall of Fame should be for players and coaches who competed at the top level, not for players and coaches who didn't regardless of what their reason was. Simple fact - Aish and Fos Williams played and coached in a second-third tier league, putting them in the AFL Hall of fame is a joke, and just pandering to South Australian sooks.

You're missing the fact that it's not the AFL Hall of Fame.

 

[Macca19]

The only reason Bickley is in is because he captained those sides. If he wasnt captain, his name wouldnt have even been brought up. Good player, but he’d barely even make the best Crows team in their history imo

 

[Altum Volantes]

Bickley was a shocking call - I can only assume they owed the Crows a favour….and don’t get me wrong, I have no hate for the Crows - they had so many great players of that era - but come on, Bickley is in there….Tony Modra isn’t - probably the only guy that can hold a candle to the sheer brilliance of Gary Ablett in that era.

That’s a Hall of Famer - what a player.