NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Back Pocket Rocket]

I don’t believe I derailed the thread.

I started my discussion today about the decades long hawthorn ban on recruiting indigenous players that only stopped in the late 90’s.

Seems like that’s bang on topic.

"They really are a scum bag club"! If that's not derailing or trolling then I'm questioning what real life is

 

[sr36]

Absolutely, what I meant is that because of the horrible way society viewed and treated indigenous people back then, some would have hidden their heritage not from shame but for protection. As such, the published numbers probably understate the actual number (and contribution) of indigenous Australians.

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Yeah between 2006 and 2021, the census shows the Aboriginal population multiplying by 4. It's not all births - a lot of people and their kids now tick the Aboriginal box who didn't tick the box in 2006.

I know that some Aboriginals with strong connections to community aren't particularly happy about the change as it makes historical data and trends unreadable.

 

[the big lebowski]

"They really are a scum bag club"! If that's not derailing or trolling then I'm questioning what real life is

Fair enough.

I wasnt trying to derail.

 

[Chief]

The ABC is from the future

 

[sr36]

I don't even know where to start with this.

LOL.

According to the census, Australia's Aboriginal population increased by 400% between 2006 and 2021... What do you put that down to?

 

[Gralin]

I don’t believe I derailed the thread.

I started my discussion today about the decades long hawthorn ban on recruiting indigenous players that only stopped in the late 90’s.

Seems like that’s bang on topic.

You posted an article about how a club used to be as reason to judge how they are now.
Followed up with comments about poker machines and trades to north Melbourne etc

I get you personally have issues with Hawthorn and Hawthorn posters on big footy but find somewhere else to bring it up because all you're doing is trying to point score ina thread that is about a serious topic

 

[Rob R]

According to the census, Australia's Aboriginal population increased by 400% between 2006 and 2021... What do you put that down to?

I understand why Ferball made his comment, my clumsy wording meant that my key point being that societies attitudes (particularly in the past) made people hide their culture was easily missed which meant that the actual contribution was probably greater than reported . I should have taken longer to better frame my comment.

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[ferball]

According to the census, Australia's Aboriginal population increased by 400% between 2006 and 2021... What do you put that down to?

A massive error reading figures on your part.

 

[ferball]

I understand why Ferball made his comment, my clumsy wording meant that my key point being that societies attitudes (particularly in the past) made people hide their culture was easily missed which meant that the actual contribution was probably greater than reported . I should have taken longer to better frame my comment.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think the key issue here was touched on by South of the Yarra when they talked about the horrible stuff they were put thru after being stolen from their family (I know SotY has mentioned that in this and other threads before otherwise I wouldn't bring it up btw.)

I completely understand that pov as well.

Not having access to the love and care an accepting community provides is a terrible thing for anyone. (I honestly don't understand how most people live in towns and cities above a certain size.) I get how most people without access to that would see a reason to hide their indigenous background and I can also see why indigenous people in Tassie did after the wars there. There was a direct threat they felt exposed to.

 

[sr36]

A massive error reading figures on your part.

True. Doubled.

 

[ferball]

True. Doubled.

Technically there was a 78-79% increase in population on the 2006 census.

Alot of the people in the 2021 one were 0-19 years old but no doubt more were identifying because they felt comfortable doing so. Personally I think that's a good thing.

 

[Caligo]

Technically there was a 78-79% increase in population on the 2006 census.

Alot of the people in the 2021 one were 0-19 years old but no doubt more were identifying because they felt comfortable doing so. Personally I think that's a good thing.

The trouble is there are idiots who listen to Andrew Bolt and believe the reason for the increase is people pretending to be indigenous for government and institutional benefits. The fact that Bolt has been proven in court to be lying through his teeth on this issue doesn't seem to matter. Nobody ever went broke appealing to racist undercurrents in a society.

Like you, I think it is wonderful when marginalised people feel comfortable showing pride in their heritage.

 

[tassietime]

Meanwhile, back on topic, Chris Fagan coached a team to the grand final packed with indigenous stars and the original Hawthorn report and ABC story are now generally regarded as works of fiction.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The trouble is there are idiots who listen to Andrew Bolt and believe the reason for the increase is people pretending to be indigenous for government and institutional benefits. The fact that Bolt has been proven in court to be lying through his teeth on this issue doesn't seem to matter. Nobody ever went broke appealing to racist undercurrents in a society.

Like you, I think it is wonderful when marginalized people feel comfortable showing pride in their heritage.

My Daughter's partner and her were laughing at how he's got one of his school photo's on display at the civic centre ,as one of the indigenous people of the area.
He's not part of any indigenous community apart from his direct family. ( which doesn't include his indigenous father ).

He hasn't received any monetary benefits.

He was going to join the armed forces at some point, his indigenous background made it easier to get in, but it also meant he would have needed to do a special entry program based in NT, which he didn't like the idea of.

I think it helped him get adult apprenticeships, but the first one he had was pretty much a big company taking apprentices out of obligation ( government contract - yay aboriginal and an apprentice , we get to tick 2 boxes. ) , and using them for cheap labour. Between them and his TAFE they messed up his schooling during COVID.

He doesn't hide his heritage, but i don't think he see's much reason to go waving a flag about it either. Its just what it is.

 

[JackOutback]

Meanwhile, back on topic, Chris Fagan coached a team to the grand final packed with indigenous stars and the original Hawthorn report and ABC story are now generally regarded as works of fiction.

No they are not.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Meanwhile, back on topic, Chris Fagan coached a team to the grand final packed with indigenous stars and the original Hawthorn report and ABC story are now generally regarded as works of fiction.

Are you suggesting the Aboriginal players concerned are lying?

 

[Rob R]

Meanwhile, back on topic, Chris Fagan coached a team to the grand final packed with indigenous stars and the original Hawthorn report and ABC story are now generally regarded as works of fiction.

Nope. Due to the AFL stuffing up and this not being tested in court, we don't know what really happened and sadly probably never will.

Certainly can't just write off the allegations as fiction.



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[tassietime]

Are you suggesting the Aboriginal players concerned are lying?

I am suggesting:

1. No adverse findings were made in the independent investigation by a panel of Indigenous experts against any of the individuals against whom allegations were made.
2. Hawthorn is facing sanction from the AFL not for racism, but for the commissioning and oversight of the Binmada report.
3. The Binmada report’s author is seriously discredited.
4. That a yarning circle (main method used in Binmada report) is a really good way to share stories and be heard, but not a method for determining objective fact.
5. That the ABC story was based on the flawed Binmada report.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I am suggesting:

1. No adverse findings were made in the independent investigation by a panel of Indigenous experts against any of the individuals against whom allegations were made.
2. Hawthorn is facing sanction from the AFL not for racism, but for the commissioning and oversight of the Binmada report.
3. The Binmada report’s author is seriously discredited.
4. That a yarning circle (main method used in Binmada report) is a really good way to share stories and be heard, but not a method for determining objective fact.
5. That the ABC story was based on the flawed Binmada report.

A yarning circle is not a good way of determining objective fact for you. For many Aboriginal people it is the best and safest way. You seem to have little understanding of Aboriginal culture with that comment.

 

[Soggy2112]

The trouble is there are idiots who listen to Andrew Bolt and believe the reason for the increase is people pretending to be indigenous for government and institutional benefits. The fact that Bolt has been proven in court to be lying through his teeth on this issue doesn't seem to matter. Nobody ever went broke appealing to racist undercurrents in a society.

Like you, I think it is wonderful when marginalised people feel comfortable showing pride in their heritage.

The fact that a large group of people think this is a bigger issue than some kids having parents who can afford to pay 30k a year for their school while others can’t buy them a notebook is close to the biggest problem in this country.

 

[Caligo]

The fact that a large group of people think this is a bigger issue than some kids having parents who can afford to pay 30k a year for their school while others can’t buy them a notebook is close to the biggest problem in this country.

I don't know what the biggest problem is. Obviously growing inequality is up there, but so is climate and geopolitics.

30k isn't even the number by the way. There are schools well over 40k for day boys, and with the standard extras you are closer to 50.

 

[Soggy2112]

I don't know what the biggest problem is. Obviously growing inequality is up there, but so is climate and geopolitics.

30k isn't even the number by the way. There are schools well over 40k for day boys, and with the standard extras you are closer to 50.

Yeah haha, wasn’t trying to get into an argument about what is our biggest problem as a nation, more trying to make the point about a couple people taking advantage of the programs designed to assist indigenous people ain’t it.

30k is around the highest in Adelaide, didn’t realise just how big it got elsewhere.

 

[Caligo]

Yeah haha, wasn’t trying to get into an argument about what is our biggest problem as a nation, more trying to make the point about a couple people taking advantage of the programs designed to assist indigenous people ain’t it.

30k is around the highest in Adelaide, didn’t realise just how big it got elsewhere.

Yeah. Sydney and Melbourne are insane.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Yeah between 2006 and 2021, the census shows the Aboriginal population multiplying by 4. It's not all births - a lot of people and their kids now tick the Aboriginal box who didn't tick the box in 2006.

I know that some Aboriginals with strong connections to community aren't particularly happy about the change as it makes historical data and trends unreadable.

One of the great joys of the Census is the clear increase in confidence of people to declare their Heritage and identity. I agree it impacts on data analysis of Census trends and other ABS and AIHW for that matter surveys and data collections.

The Stolen Generations era encouraged people to hide their kids and to not pipe up.

ABS has long Invested in community development and info sessions on why it is safe and important to identify.

Yep it makes cross Census analysis tricky but it is much better that more and more Aboriginal people have become sufficiently confident to tick identity boxes.

 

[tassietime]

A yarning circle is not a good way of determining objective fact for you. For many Aboriginal people it is the best and safest way. You seem to have little understanding of Aboriginal culture with that comment.

I’ve been involved in many yarning circles over two decades. They serve many important purposes, but are inappropriate for testing serious allegations and should not have been the basis for claims made in the report or the ABC story. A person can have respect for Aboriginal culture and procedural integrity simultaneously.